Politics

[Tom Servo]

Two big SCOTUS decisions today. One told the administration that they cannot add a citizenship question to the 2020 census, and the other said that much of the recent gerrymandering done by the GOP is "unjust", but also not up to the courts to stop but instead the voters and legistlators.

That second one is a little bit worrying, since by definition gerrymandering exists to skew the vote and the legislators elected due to it have a vested reason to want to continue it. Places that haven't been gerrymandered to death have a chance to stop it, but any place that's already been successfully gerrymandered by one party basically have no tools to undo it. On the plus side, it didn't preclude the state-level courts from intervening.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If something is unjust, we don't need to go to the courts to seek justice. Just go to the Republican congress and the Trump voters. Surely they can give us justice.

I wonder what they're thinking?!?!?!

At least they have enough balls to take out that census question.

By their own logic, if that question was added to further gerrymader the shit out of America, shouldn't their hands be tied again and just let the legislators and the voters decide whether to keep the question or not? :rolleyes:

Justices do not have the power to fix injustices in our nation. Why the fuck do we need justices then?

I don't know, maybe it's a similar shit with Mueller. Yeah, you don't have the power to indict a sitting president..., fine, why don't you just tell or urge congress to impeach him based on the results of your investigation? Was that so hard?

Do the right thing! Don't be bound by stupid laws. Find ways around it!

If you fucking KNOW it's unjust or wrong please find ways to make it right. Don't hide behind stupid laws!!!:angry:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, anybody watched the 1st dem debate?

[MR2 Fan]

nope, I don't even plan to pay attention til they're down to a couple of candidates

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ha! Me too! :D

[MR2 Fan]

so the bad news...SCOTUS won't rule on gerrymandering cases, the good news MAYBE is that states can decide that, and they can't be overruled? So if we get state legislatures to pass it, it may help.....having said that, no, nevermind, we're screwed

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just read some news articles regarding chief justice’s reasoning.... how does one decide if a line is acceptable or too much? Since he can’t figure out how to most appropriately draw the fairest line, then he’d order all other judges to not make such judgment as well...

Hmmm... okay, since there’s no law against being stupid, naturally he can’t make a decision on how stupid is truly stupid..., so he’ll just let the lawmakers and the voters to continue to be as stupid as they want. If you want to wise up, it’ll be their choice! How wise is our Chief Justice! Wow!

Okay. Why not take the results of your new census and then have a computer algorithm randomly draw up something. And have the computer redraw the districts after every census taken in order to ensure proper representation and decide on # of electoral votes... At the very minimum, lawmakers shouldn’t have the power to pick and choose who they represent! If the courts cannot decide on a fairest line, who else can? If you don’t want that responsibility, like I said, just let a computer do it. Of course, don’t let a conservative hacker hack the algorithm! ;)

Sigh... so disappointing.

Anyway, using the same reasoning, courts should also refrain from deciding further on cases such as abortion? Whatever laws congress passed would be the law of the land... how can pro life be wrong? How can prochoice be wrong? Surely he won’t be able to draw the line so I guess the good thing is that row v wade shall never be over turned.... well, until congress does something stupid...

[Dicknose]

At the very minimum, lawmakers shouldn’t have the power to pick and choose who they represent! If the courts cannot decide on a fairest line, who else can?

How about an independent dept - they can set the boundaries, manage registrations and maybe even run the elections (in a fair and consistent manner)
These would be public service jobs but not under political control.
Works well here - we have a federal election commission as well as state ones.

We used to have the politicians decide the boundaries and yes gerrymandering occured. Fixed that problem, plus it would get rid of shit like "hanging chads"

[Tom Servo]

Aww man. I recorded yesterday's debate and it seemed like it was boring so I didn't bother recording tonight's, and now that sounds way more entertaining. I want to see all the crazy shit Marianne Williamson was up to.

[Crazed_Insanity]

How about an independent dept - they can set the boundaries, manage registrations and maybe even run the elections (in a fair and consistent manner)
These would be public service jobs but not under political control.
Works well here - we have a federal election commission as well as state ones.

We used to have the politicians decide the boundaries and yes gerrymandering occured. Fixed that problem, plus it would get rid of shit like "hanging chads"

Glad to know that works for you guys. This really should be a no brainer... and if the supreme court does not intervene on voters behalf, I can't imagine a horribly gerrymandered districts would ever want to change it and lose their current advantage...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Aww man. I recorded yesterday's debate and it seemed like it was boring so I didn't bother recording tonight's, and now that sounds way more entertaining. I want to see all the crazy shit Marianne Williamson was up to.

She casted a love spell on me!!! For a brief moment, I almost abandoned Bernie and Pete, but thanks be to my Lord Christ Jesus, the true God of love, for breaking me free from her spell! :p

[Tom Servo]

Without seeing it, my favorite tweet about her so far was "Marianne Williamson? Why, she's been dead for 200 years!"

[Crazed_Insanity]

Didn’t watch the debate, just this article: https://mashable.com/article/marianne-williamson-debate-reaction-memes/

[21Kid]

Ugh... 😕

Donald Trump's July 4 spectacle just keeps getting more and more absurd

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/02/politics/donald-trump-july-4/index.html


The parading of military has long been the stuff of dictators and authoritarian regimes -- from Iran to North Korea to Russia. The leaders -- military and civilian -- in the United States have avoided that sort of thing because, well, the strongest guy in the gym doesn't need to go around telling everyone how strong he is. It's understood. Yes, we have massive military might. But we also believe in diplomacy, avoiding military conflicts at all costs and using force as only a last resort.

Trump doesn't seem to grasp that nuance. Or he grasps it and either doesn't care or doesn't agree.

Either way, the images coming out of Washington, DC, on Thursday night will send a very different message to the country and the world than ever before on July 4. Trump knows that -- and is thrilled about it.

[FaultyMario]

How a decent Yank is not heartbroken by the rhetoric published by the highest office in the land is beyond me.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-kyS4fUwAAMlKZ.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-kyUMxUEAECnn9.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-kyWSTUIAAWn0m.png

[MR2 Fan]

While it is pretty similar to Trump's rhetoric, I don't think that's his tweets, one of his staffers probably tweeted that for him. It's too "nice" for him

[FaultyMario]

That's why I said 'Office'. :)

Still, how is it acceptable to lessen the spirit of public service ("not hospital workers"), political debate ("So easy to do!") and the rule of law ("unless they are willing to do so legally")?

I thought that those were core values of your country.

[Crazed_Insanity]

This must be fake(fox) news reporting about something in another parallel universe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz_F7VX9Aqc

Makes me want to visit those detention centers myself to see who's really telling the truth.

Anyway, most likely Fox is the fake news, but unfortunately most Fox viewers wouldn't care. All they'd now know is that AOC is a liar.

Anyway, I think we need legislation or something in place to make it a crime to spread fake news or deep fake video or any BS stuff. If a story or a video is just plain untrue, whatever media has to take that shit down and be penalized somehow... like driving violation points. After your media outlet accumulated more than 3 points, than you need to just be shut down or something... and for social media companies that don't want to be subject to shutdowns, they need to no longer be in the news posting business. Yes, I think it'd certainly be refreshing to be able to not have to read shitty news stories shared by our friends.

This is out of control...

[FaultyMario]

The other day I got a news snippet (might have been a twit) about a study of how much Fox News' coverage of her has an effect on how she is perceived at the national level.

[The359]

A few takeaways: Crisis at the Southern Border is a proper name now, I guess? And those people in cages are safe now!

[Freude am Fahren]

https://scontent.fmia1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/66446259_10157903752464305_3430797640999108608_n.j pg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_oc=AQnsvgAmNXr-3MMtuMq9zMFY5-AQrSZhwv6jkgyiBgSCfGzGl6OKjE4Szzk6Chxzwag&_nc_ht=scontent.fmia1-2.fna&oh=39ccaabe4b7b5dc3d74253f7d732eda3&oe=5D80DFFE

Happy 4th of July :(

[MR2 Fan]

Diaper Donnie doesn't even know the name of his own plane, calling it "Aircraft One" today on twitter. Side note, Putin's official plane is called..........Aircraft One. Maybe Trump just got confused.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Haha, God has graciously rained on trump’s parade... well, if not God, then at least Mother Nature Rained on his parade...

Anyway, just glad somebody rained on his parade. :D

[MR2 Fan]

Trump on the 1776 war of independence "Our army manned the air, it took over the airports"

Stupidest President Ever.

I get the impression that he doesn't even think about ANY nuance in his speeches, he just comes up with shit without considering whether it makes any sense or not.

[Freude am Fahren]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-rnJWAWsAI4Yj9.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh com’on, give him a break! The teleprompter went out, so his brain went with it! :D

[Leon]

Oh com’on, give him a break! The teleprompter went out, so his brain went with it! :D

The teleprompters he takes shot at other people for using?

;)

But yeah, he's a special special flavour of stupid. Living proof that money does not = brain or worthwhile human being.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, it’s really unbelievable that he’d use that as an excuse...

[tigeraid]

There's some sort of prophetic metaphor involved with the horrific, neglected infrastructure of Washington DC crumbling under the weight of dozens of giant multi-million dollar tanks at Trump's failparade. But I just can't quite put my finger on it.

[MR2 Fan]

Remembering back to the kompramat that early on Putin seemed to have on Trump and we thought it was something that didn't sound that bad, just some wild prostitute stuff maybe.....BUT if Epstein is involved....oh man, now it all makes more sense.

[George]

Ross Perot has died at age 89.

I liked him a lot and voted for him for President in 1992. He seemed to have a lot of good ideas at the time and played the "Washington outsider" card well. I still have a Perot For President button in my box of miscellaneous crap, right next to the Nixon/Agnew button I once bought at a flea market to pin to the passenger sun visor of my 1971 Volkswagen.

I wonder what a truly self-made billionaire businessman like Perot could have done as President. I'd like to think he would have shut up and listened to his advisors a little more often than the current occupant of the white house.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Perot

[speedpimp]

Remembering back to the kompramat that early on Putin seemed to have on Trump and we thought it was something that didn't sound that bad, just some wild prostitute stuff maybe.....BUT if Epstein is involved....oh man, now it all makes more sense.

Probably is prostitute related, underage prostitute related. If it is true I would love to see any Trump try and defend that.

[Tom Servo]

Well, Trump did defend Acosta, the guy who was one of the prosecutors that cut him a deal with a very lenient sentence when he was tried in Florida and is now Trump's labor secretary, so there's at least that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It’s also interesting to see Bill Clinton claiming that he did not know anything about sex with minors. Well, it all depends on what your definition of know is...

Anyway, in retrospect, I think Perot would make a great president. If not, then at least we’d probably be able to avoid Trump because we had been burned by a billionaire before? Perot is just dorky. Not really sure if he’s presidential enough? But surely he’ll be able to do much better than Trump.

[MR2 Fan]

You're saying a dead guy would do better than Trump? I agree

[Crazed_Insanity]

:lol:

[neanderthal]

The 9th Circuit just refused to block the Title X gag rule.

So thank you, every single one of you that refused to vote for Hillary Clinton.

And it means you can say goodbye to anything remotely progressive that could be passed in the chambers in the future, simply by taking it to (Trumps) stacked courts. Canceling student debt? Blocked, keep it. Medicare for All. Blocked. Etc.

Well done. Pat yourselves on the back. :smh:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Dude, I think it's very funny that you'd just keep on blaming the victims. You're a victim too, try blaming yourself as well?

Actually, democrats said good-bye to the progressive candidate back in 2016, so why care about progressive agendas now? Maybe we can blame Hillary herself for running with excessive baggage?

Seriously, how does one lose to a pussy grabbing asshole?!?!?!? Considering both Trump and Clintons had close ties with Jeff Epstein, makes me wonder does it really matter which one wins the WH?

Anyway, election 2016's over. Get over it. Can we move forward and quit dwelling on the past?

[neanderthal]

Maybe you didn't see the part where i mentioned how the past (the last election) is going to keep fucking with the future (through Trumps stacked courts. Some of these judges are in their thirties/ forties. So, conservatively the next thirty years of legal fuckery!) Thats going to be hard to do as anything remotely progressive gets rolled back in the courts. Same with some civil liberties.

So, again I say, congratulations; pat yourself on the back!

[FaultyMario]

The 9th Circuit just refused to block the Title X gag rule. So thank you, every single one of you that refused to vote for Hillary Clinton.

:smh:

But, HER emails!

[dodint]

I still haven't heard a compelling argument for cancelling student debt. It's money you spent. If you didn't invest wisely in yourself that's not the taxpayers fault.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Being financially weighed down like that means they have little to spend on other stuffs, this inevitably will weigh down the overall economy since more and more folks are now duped into buying expensive college education.

Yes, it’s not the fault of tax payer, but dragging down on the economy can’t be good for anybody.

I don’t believe we should teach younger generation to be irresponsible by canceling their debts just like that..., but perhaps make student loan payments tax deductible. College Ed also shouldn’t be free, but give kids govt backed interest free loans if they need it.

If you bought an expensive diploma and can’t find jobs and become a tax payer, then perhaps bankruptcy can be an option.

[Dicknose]

Why shouldnt college be free?
Or at least much cheaper than they are at the moment.
I was lucky and got 2 degrees and they brought fees in only for my last year (and that was about $200 - so 5 years for that price)

Its a good investment in your people. In your country. In everyones future.

[JSGeneral]

But, HER emails!

Buttery males.

[mk]

What it takes to add SCOTUS judges?

15 would be nice.
Term limit also, one ending every year.

[MR2 Fan]

Acosta already resigned....that was quick.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Why shouldnt college be free?
Or at least much cheaper than they are at the moment.
I was lucky and got 2 degrees and they brought fees in only for my last year (and that was about $200 - so 5 years for that price)

Its a good investment in your people. In your country. In everyones future.

If we have unlimited resources, surely everything could be free. I’d rather have free healthcare ahead of free college. Both are ridiculous high cost in the US at the moment. Making them free for all is probably just not possible. Plus, not everyone needs college education. We had plenty of drop out billionaires!

Bringing their prices down has to be the 1st priority rather than making them free for all.

Priorities need to be on making them more affordable and sustainable and higher quality education, not just throw them out there as free imho. We now have free K~12 education, but how good is that? American kids are consistently the dumbest compared to the rest of the world. Whenever we need to tighten our belts, education is always something we cut 1st. We pay prison wards better than we pay teachers. Do we really want to 'socialize' and screw up our higher education as well? No thanks Bernie. This is just something I don't agree with Bernie on..., but I get that he has good intentions. Ideally, we should all get quality education that's free.

Making student loans complete tax deductible is as far as I’m willing to go, I don’t think canceling loans out right or just have taxpayers pay these outrageous tuitions as good solutions.

However I doubt sanders or warren will be able to deliver on these promises. Even if they succeed and caused huge deficits, I’d rather we rack up all these debts because of education or healthcare rather than wars and corporate tax cuts! :p

Still, if dems succeeds in socialized education and single payer healthcare and turn all of our colleges as bad as our 2ndary schools and turn every hospital like the VA hospital, that can't be good..., but messing up our own country is probably still better than dropping bombs or meddling in other countries.

[George]

What it takes to add SCOTUS judges?

15 would be nice.
Term limit also, one ending every year.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt tried that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_Procedures_Reform_Bill_of_1937

"During Roosevelt's first term the Supreme Court struck down several New Deal measures as being unconstitutional. Roosevelt sought to reverse this by changing the makeup of the court through the appointment of new additional justices who he hoped would rule his legislative initiatives did not exceed the constitutional authority of the government."

[dodint]

The number of justices on the SCOTUS is a fluctuating number. Recent history it has been 9, sometimes 8. Early in the court it was less.

The power to change it is derived from the Constitution, Article III:


The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.

The quoted text is the entirety of what the Constitution has to say about establishing and maintaining the court system. Though brief, it's clear the responsibility for making structural judicial changes starts with Congress. If they wanted to change the number of justices to something else they can. Marco Rubio wants to set it at 9 to keep the Democrats from packing the court in the future to offset Trump's appointments. He proposed a Constitutional Amendment in March 2019, full text found here: https://www.rubio.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/be716f1c-ece5-4e01-8fb4-7be837c696ad/3F9E11CD2F48F0BB4F89F8E423B06228.rubio-scotus-9-sil19361---final-signed-3.25.19-filed-.pdf
As far as I can see it has not been considered by the Senate or House Judiciary Committees.

On the issue of term limits, the clause "shall hold their offices during good behaviour" has been held to mean the appointments are lifetime. mk seems to be proposing a 10 year term limit with each 'seat' expiring on a rotating basis. I don't hate the idea and it has several positives. SCOTUS selection would become normalized and unlikely to be the circus that it has become recently. The makeup of the bench would be more likely to reflect the will of the people with fresh ideas being injected on a regular basis. There are downsides as well. There are only so many quality SCOTUS level justices in the country; the system would be expelling high qualify accomplished jurists and replacing them with lesser minds due to the high churn rate. Not saying these replacements would be dullards, but if you're changing justices for the sake of it there has to be a diminishing return. Also, certain populations (old people, mostly) would be under represented over time because jurists would no longer stay in office for the remainder of their lives as they do now. There are lots of other considerations, maybe I'll poke around and see what people smarter than me have said about the idea of SCOTUS term limits.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I not smarter, but I don’t think we need justices that cater to the will of the people. We need justices who can make just decisions based on their honest interpretation of the constitution.

We already have stupid congress representing stupid general population at will. Democracy has also proven that we the people don’t always pick the right things... Trump may not be popularly elected, but there are plenty of other fascists leaders elected around the world, not to mention Brexit... so, I personally wouldn’t want people to constantly tinker around the court’s bench. Congress can become a circus trying to appoint/block new justices, but hope the court itself won’t become one.

Justices should be totally insulated from the will of the people, lure of money and power and be solely devoted to the proper interpretations of the constitution. Judges should be allowed to retire at their own will or be removed due to corruption.

Congress can be psychotic as the people. Executive branch is more medium term... and the court should offer longer term stability and that's how the 3 branches should balance each other. At the moment, we already have 2 branches that are psychotic. I would not recommend messing with the supreme court the same way.

[FaultyMario]

There are only so many quality SCOTUS level justices in the country; the system would be expelling high qualify accomplished jurists and replacing them with lesser minds due to the high churn rate. Not saying these replacements would be dullards, but if you're changing justices for the sake of it there has to be a diminishing return. Also, certain populations (old people, mostly) would be under represented over time because jurists would no longer stay in office for the remainder of their lives as they do now.

I a country of 330 million? mmm...

[dodint]

Yes.

To address it empirically, there are only 870 authorized Article III judges, 9 of which are already on the SCOTUS. So 861 people out of 330,000,000 that can reasonably demonstrate that they have the requisite resume to at least be considered for nomination to the court. Say for a moment, for illustrative purposes, you could rank them in order: 1 through 861. You would promote number 1 every year and replace the most senior SCOTUS justice. When viewed in that best case scenario you see that we've devised a system of taking the best and brightest legal minds in the country and discarding them arbitrarily on an annual basis.
More subjectively, when there is a SCOTUS seat open and you analyze who might legitimately be able to fill that seat the lists are short, typically single digits. The proposed system burns through that list in less than a decade. Then what?

I have a hard time supporting that, but I'm open to suggestions. My biggest practical opposition to it can be summed up pretty easily through a hypothetical: Say Trump (or any president) is reelected and serves the full 8 years. That's 8/9 SCOTUS justices chosen by one executive administration. Ouch.

[FaultyMario]

Does legislation not allow from people outside the judiciary to be 'drafted', like say, legal scholars?

[George]

That's 8/9 SCOTUS justices chosen by one executive administration. Ouch.

From the wikipedia link I posted earlier - a quote from former Chief Justice William Rehnquist:

"President Roosevelt lost the Court-packing battle, but he won the war for control of the Supreme Court ... not by any novel legislation, but by serving in office for more than twelve years, and appointing eight of the nine Justices of the Court."


Does legislation not allow from people outside the judiciary to be 'drafted', like say, legal scholars?

I believe the president can appoint anyone he wishes, but he or she must be confirmed by the Senate. I assume most people without a judicial record would have a difficult confirmation process - even more difficult than it has become in recent decades.

I've heard or read speculation that Barack Obama (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama#Law_career) might be appointed to the court by Hillary Clinton, if elected, or some future Democratic president. The link goes to the Law Career portion of his wikipedia page. Most people here already know about that, I'm sure.

This learned group probably already knows this too, but if not, here's some trivia (and precedent): William Taft (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Howard_Taft) was president of the United States from 1909 - 1913 and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court from 1921 - 1930.

[dodint]

Yes, anyone can be appointed. I think if someone is advocating for appointing non-jurists to SCOTUS they either are not being serious or do not have an understanding of the breadth of legal issues the courts actually rule on. Most of the cases are lopsided decisions about legal minutia. It's the 5-4 splits on sexy social issues that get folks riled up about the makeup of the court.

Competency matters. Have a look at a hearing in 2017 when Trump tried to put a completely inexperienced non-litigator into a federal judgeship:

https://twitter.com/SenWhitehouse/status/941484131757838337

[Crazed_Insanity]

Legal scholars or other non-judges probably just won't have any 'track record' to show their appointees... if you can't tell which way they lean politically, you probably won't nominate or confirm such person?

Anyway, personally, if I have my way, I'd ask all 861 of them to be 'jurors'. Whenever you can't get ALL SCOTUS to agree on something... meaning such issue just isn't clear cut due to political or whatever reasons, or this issue is just way too opened for interpretation based on the constitution, then we'll let all 861 of them vote on this hot issue! If there's a tie after counting all 870 votes, then chief justice can be the tie breaker.

This method should be much fairer and unless another dumbass president could appoint all 9 conservative judges, we should no longer have to fear which president appoints who to the court.

Maybe asking all 9 to agree is too much... perhaps we can set the limit to no more than 2 dissenting SCOTUS... when more than 2 dissented on certain 'gray' issue, then we activate supreme jury duty from all 861 judges! :D

[FaultyMario]

Yeah I can see why old private counselors would want in.

If you're good enough to be minutia-ous you'd be making a killing representing. And then, when you're old and wrinkled and money doesn't get your thrill on, you go for that challenge.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If you chose money while your young, it kinda proves that you’re not really all that passionate about true justice, right?

Can one really trust a rich old lawyer to all of a sudden care about justice at the Supreme Court level when old enough to retire? It’d probably won’t end well just like a billionaire trying to run for president...

Also, it’s a real good slap of the faces to those other 861 judges...

[mk]

I have a hard time supporting that, but I'm open to suggestions. My biggest practical opposition to it can be summed up pretty easily through a hypothetical: Say Trump (or any president) is reelected and serves the full 8 years. That's 8/9 SCOTUS justices chosen by one executive administration. Ouch.

Other end is that those eight years can't nominate any.

Minority nomination for double POTUS with nine judges is one every other year.
That's 18 years in charge for one, quite a long time for a failure.
Even changing a trend is pretty slow.

Obviously I see it so that replacing a bad one is more important that keeping a good one.

If Trump gets a second term Ginsburg is a guardian of many things, maybe even the whole court.

[dodint]

Yeah, that kind of illustrates my point though. If your original plan had been in place when RBG was sworn in she would have been rotated out by 2003. ;)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, switching gears a bit to Biden.

Do most of you liberals agree with Harris that Biden was wrong to oppose federally mandated busing of children back in the 70s?

[tigeraid]

Biden is the king of pandering, mealy-mouthed centrist nonsense. Talk about tolerance and liberal ideals out one side of his mouth, while being one of the chief politicians responsible for passing the insane drug crimes bill (along with that disgusting fossil Strom Thurmand) that put tens of thousands of innocent people in jail over two decades or so. For every bill he signed on that sounds kinda good, there's another one that set your country back a generation.

[FaultyMario]

3-Year-Old Asked To Pick Parent In Attempted Family Separation, Her Parents Say (https://www.npr.org/2019/07/15/741721660/follow-up-what-happened-after-a-border-agent-asked-toddler-to-pick-a-parent)

:smh:

[dodint]

Sofi's Choice, eh?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Biden is the king of pandering, mealy-mouthed centrist nonsense. Talk about tolerance and liberal ideals out one side of his mouth, while being one of the chief politicians responsible for passing the insane drug crimes bill (along with that disgusting fossil Strom Thurmand) that put tens of thousands of innocent people in jail over two decades or so. For every bill he signed on that sounds kinda good, there's another one that set your country back a generation.

That crime bill certainly had the intention to put away lots more people, but in reality, it didn't. Federal prisons consist of less than 20% of overall prison population in the US. Also, I kinda doubt tens of thousands of 'innocent' folks were put away. I don't think the crime bill intended to change the idea of innocent until proven guilty...

CA has a 3 stikes law, that probably put away lots of folks over stupid little felonies in prison which resulted in prison overcrwoding since the 90s. So not sure if we can place the blame squarely on Biden. It was just fashionable to be tough on crime back then. Even Bernie Sanders eventually reluctantly supported that crime bill because of violence against women provision. So it was not all bad...

Anyway, while I think Biden probably shouldn't be so proud of himself over these past issues, I really also don't think they really set our country back a generation... that's the Republican's job! :p

I also wonder what people can dig up about Harris with regard to her record on crime as CA's attorney general...

Anyway, back to my original question, I just don't understand how can busing be such a huge deal in the debate. I went to middle and high school in Pasadena, one of the oldest cities in LA and they bused kids around to mix up the black kids up north with white kids down south... So I basically attended pasadena schools mostly with black kids. Where do most white kids go? Private schools. Black people still live in the northern part of town and white folks still live in the southern part. What did mandatory busing do? nothing much. So if Biden got his way and stopped mandatory busing, will the world be a better place? I doubt it..., but my point is that, to me, it seems like a such pointless issue, but it caused Biden to dip and Harris to rise.

Good for Harris, but I'm still not sure she has my vote yet. Can we talk about meatier issues? She is the one who reminded everyone that americans wants food on the table, not to see food fights...

[Tom Servo]

My bigger problem vs. what his stance was is that he's being all wishy-washy about it now. His language was pretty clear back then that he very much opposed it, now he's trying to make it sound like he didn't really oppose it. He's done that with a few things now.

And it's not hard to dig up some stuff on Harris. Her "get tough" stance on truancy and support of the CA truancy law is one of those things that bothers me about her and has caused me not to completely come around on her.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, what can you expect from a career politician? ;)

I guess I really wish those 20ish declared candidates could just vote amongst themselves, but can't vote for themselves so that we can quickly narrow down the field "internally" rather than continuing this circular firing squad approach.

I've made my choices clear... my top 3 are Sanders, Mayor Pete, Warren... if none of those 3 could make it to the end, my preference for the rest of the field would actually still be Biden. I don't dislike Biden as much as Hillary... to the point of voting 3rd party. However, somehow I get the feeling that Biden is becoming less and less popular compared to Hillary amongst liberals...

Hope future debates will focus more on defeating Trump and less on defeating each other...

Besides the presidential front, even in Congress, the dems are turning against each other... the old Pelosi vs the young squad...

This internal fight can only end up benefiting the republicans.

It seems it's become increasingly more difficult for people to work together. Even people of the same party, let alone same country.

[Tom Servo]

I would prefer the debates not focus on Trump. I don't think of it as a circular firing squad, I think of it as a way to find the best candidate for the job. I would prefer that it not be particularly negative/be based on bashing other candidates, but if it does go that way then I just hope that it's based on criticizing their policy positions. If it's just focused on defeating Trump then that just makes it seem like nobody actually has a vision for America or any policy plans.

And Pelosi is being an absolute idiot, IMHO.

[tigeraid]

I use the word "innocent" because I think most drug laws are pointless at best and harmful at worst. Their bill just made things way worse.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I agree dems vision cannot just be beat trump, but I want Harris to bring more food on the table rather than food fighting emotionally with Biden that’s all.

Of course I’m not singling out Harris alone. There are also folks criticizing Harris for not being black enough!

Enough of identity politics already!

I think so far, Warren is still the leading candidate with real plans to put food on the table, right?

Of course I’d like to think Bernie and mayor Pete also have plans to make America.... uh... better? ;)

The wait is just so agonizing..., I do hope 2020 will end well...

[neanderthal]

Fuck off with your both sides of your mouth talk billi.
Bussing is an identity politics issue.

"Enough with identity politics..."

[neanderthal]

I would prefer the debates not focus on Trump. I don't think of it as a circular firing squad, I think of it as a way to find the best candidate for the job. I would prefer that it not be particularly negative/be based on bashing other candidates, but if it does go that way then I just hope that it's based on criticizing their policy positions. If it's just focused on defeating Trump then that just makes it seem like nobody actually has a vision for America or any policy plans.

And Pelosi is being an absolute idiot, IMHO.

And that's exactly what Kamala was doing to Biden.

Thankfully there are lots of policies on Kamala's website, same for Castro and Warren. Unfortunately the media (I hate that they end up being the boogey man) often dictates whats being discussed.

Did anybody notice that it was the visits to the concentration camps and the outrage over the prisoners (lets call them what they are) being forced to drink water out of the toilet) that pre empted Trumps little outburst? And now hardly anybody is talking about the conditions in the concentration camps. He's a champion media manipulator and they fall for his shit every time. King of the strawman.
They, the fucking media, are asking if Trump is a racist, when they've been using linguistic gymnastics the last few years to call him a liar. Meanwhile we've ALWAYS KNOWN (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/trump-racism-comments/588067/) he's racist, and he's said/ done many things that didn't leave that in doubt, from refusing to rent to black people, the Central Park 5, birtherism, "they don't send their best, they send rapists and gangsters," to labelling an entire continent "shithole countries," referring to avowed racists as "fine people (on both sides,") his Muslim bans, etc etc etc. Theres a litany of things said and done that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt his bigotry. But yeah, Hillary was worse, right? :smh: Anyway, he's good for letting us know who the racists are. We see them, standing by, sitting by, saying nothing.

Edit; did y'all catch the objection from the member of Congress from Georgia over Rep Eric Swalwell quoting Trump, saying "shithole countries?" Did any of you catch his objection when Trump originally said it? Suddenly it's objectionable when someone else says it?

I used to go hard for Bernie, if you recall, i like his positions, but homie didn't. do. shit. in his entire time in the Congress or the Senate. (https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/bernard_sanders/400357) Literally didn't do anything but name post offices. All hat no cattle. All bark no bite. All bluster and finger wagging, no actual action. 40 fucking years! Named post offices! Dassit. No thanks Bernie. Sit down. And by that I mean fuck right off. And when you get wherever that is, fuck off some more.

[Tom Servo]

Agreed about what Kamala was doing. She was describing how his policy decisions affected or would have affected her, so I think it's perfectly reasonable.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Fuck off with your both sides of your mouth talk billi.
Bussing is an identity politics issue.

"Enough with identity politics..."

You should’ve joined the discussion earlier.

I was asking if the liberals here if they truly believe busing is an important issue.

If Harris were not bused to another school, would that dramatically alter her future?

I’ve concluded that busing really isn’t an important issue in the overall scheme of things... and using it as an illustration of how pointless such identity politicking is.

You understand where I’m coming from?

Anyway, do you believe busing was a good policy that healed racial tensions? Also, was Harris really that critical of the busing policy or just telling him that it was hurtful to see Biden work with other segregationists?

To me, busing or no busing probably makes little difference. Racial tension just won’t be improved with busing. But since segregationist don’t want it, hey, let’s just do it to piss them off! They’ve oppressed us long enough, it’s about time that we can use power of congress to oppress them back!

Anyway, bottom line is that identity politics is stupid. Liberals continue to fall for it... and I do agree with Biden that busing was a train wreck. Racial tensions most likely only got worse because of it.

[FaultyMario]

I used to go hard for Bernie, if you recall, i like his positions, but homie didn't. do. shit. in his entire time in the Congress or the Senate. (https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/bernard_sanders/400357) Literally didn't do anything but name post offices. All hat no cattle. All bark no bite. All bluster and finger wagging, no actual action. 40 fucking years!

I think that's a political statement from your part, Mo. In my mind you're an ardent Hillarist. So i can't quite reconcile what you say now with what you said before as a "shift" in position, I think you're overstretching the concept of truth there.

As for Sanders not doing shit, I think that discussion is in need of evidence-backed arguments, I wouldn't believed he'd be ranked so highly by the ACLU (https://ssl.capwiz.com/aclu/keyvotes.xc/?lvl=C) if he was just a seat warmer. That link came from the govtrack URL you posted.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, I was going to ask him about that too, but figured I'll deal with one thing at a time.

That govtrack site does show Bernie to have a very low leadership score, but I didn't see anything to indicate that Bernie didn't do anything. Not sure how Neanderthal got his ideas. Even if Bernie did absolutely nothing in congress, why the animosity? Is it necessary to tell him to fuck off and fuck off some more simply because he didn't do anything? What about those who actually pass laws to hurt black lives? What should be done to those folks?

Anyway, Neanderthal, I think you need to calm down a bit... or at least explain to us exactly why you hate him so much? Simply because Billi loves him? Or because he hurt Hillary's chances?

As for Bernie's low leadership score, I guess being so far left, it's understandable none of his colleagues are willing to let him take the lead on anything... ;)

Even Harris has higher leadership score than Bernie... how sad... Warren has a much higher leadership score... so perhaps Warren will be able to do a better job in the oval office... while having similar progressive ideals. Hmm..., so I think for me now, it's probably between Mayor Pete and Warren.

Will you start to hate those 2 candidates now Neanderthal? :p

[Tom Servo]

According to govtrack, their leadership score comes from basically a version of Google Pagerank based on primary sponsorship of bills vs. co-sponsorship. The specific example there is:



The idea behind a leadership score is that if X consponsor's Y's bills but Y does not cosponsor X's bills, then X is a follower relative to Y being a leader.


I think he gets high rankings from groups like the ACLU based on both bills he's sponsored (whether they pass or not) and his voting record on other people's bills.

That seems to gibe with the general criticism that I've heard of him but haven't really taken the time to fully verify on my own. His values appear to coincide pretty well with mine, but there's question as to how effective he would be as President. I think as long as Mitch McConnell is around, that's a reasonably big concern. FWIW, it's also why I think anyone who says that Biden is uniquely qualified to work across the aisle and break partisan gridlock is full of shit, otherwise where was he from 2009 to 2017?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well, Biden was stuck in between Barack and Mitch. Who knows, maybe as the real president, he will be able to work better with Mitch but then end up hurting Harris' feelings.

Anyway, 2 sides really need to find a way to work better together somehow. Of course, I don't really know how..., but I think first off, half of Americans have to try to be more understanding of the other side, rather than just think that they should fuck off.

[neanderthal]

Well, Biden was stuck in between Barack and Mitch. Who knows, maybe as the real president, he will be able to work better with Mitch but then end up hurting Harris' feelings.

Anyway, 2 sides really need to find a way to work better together somehow. Of course, I don't really know how..., but I think first off, half of Americans have to try to be more understanding of the other side, rather than just think that they should fuck off.

I'm not sure who you're talking about because half of America seems to think the other half should go back where they came from. Which is another way of saying fuck off!

[Crazed_Insanity]

No, not quite half of the country in that case.

68% of Americans found Trump tweet offensive. 32% is way less than half. https://www.vox.com/2019/7/17/20697721/trump-racist-tweet-polling

Further, even if all 32% of them are unamerican racists, what should be done to them if you have the power? If we can't send them back where they came from, then maybe lock them up in concentration camps or gas chambers?

We don't have to sink to their same low levels. It'd be better to help raise them to a higher level. Legislations such as busing kids around town just won't help resolve any grown up issues. Need to find better ways to unfuck ourselves.

[neanderthal]

I think that's a political statement from your part, Mo. In my mind you're an ardent Hillarist. So i can't quite reconcile what you say now with what you said before as a "shift" in position, I think you're overstretching the concept of truth there.

As for Sanders not doing shit, I think that discussion is in need of evidence-backed arguments, I wouldn't believed he'd be ranked so highly by the ACLU (https://ssl.capwiz.com/aclu/keyvotes.xc/?lvl=C) if he was just a seat warmer. That link came from the govtrack URL you posted.

I don't see any over stretching. You can go back and see my very strong inclination for Bernie long before the primary in 2016. I like a lot of his very liberal ideas (higher minimum wage, healthcare for all, free university, etc etc, I think those will help to solve a lot of society's issues (but the one that will make the biggest bang for the buck is free childcare- kindergarten, but I don't know if he even mentions it) in todays climate. I'd even say that university should come with a caveat that one "serves" for two years in thier chosen field in a depressed community. People would get to go to other parts of the country, see and experience a life unlike their own, maybe get to understand each other a little more, but I digress) However, he doesn't do shit. He's barely passed any legislation in nearly 40 years in Congress. The fucks he been doing? If he can't get legislation passed in decades and decades of "service" in Congress, how's he going to get legislation passed from the White House?

You can call me a Hillarist, and I will gladly take on that mantle. Hillary is a wonderful woman who dutifully served her country for almost her entire working life, then got screwed over by fucking Bernie, the Russians who feared what her leadership would mean, a population so horrified by the presidency of a decent man BECAUSE HE WAS BLACK, that they chose an avowed racist to replace him, a dastardly combination of all of the above. And more.

I will refer to myself as a pragmatist. We black people are politically pragmatic. We may want the pie in the sky ideals of but when it comes down to it, the system fucks us more than just about any other group, so we vote where we get hurt the least. Something Republicans don't understand. (oddly enough a lot of black people are politically conservative but we don't fuck with Republicans coz we see by their actions that they are racist.)

Bernies biggest problem (this is my take) is that his answer to every. single. problem in society is "corporate greed is ... " (this is the part where we doze off, because the question was about black lives matter, or pipeline access through Native American lands, or the triumph of US womens soccer team at the World Cup (on the real though, they got a lot of help from the video AR, but they probably would have won anyway!) he could be asked about Trump's recent statements and he'd find a way to squeeze in "corporate greed" into the response. His solution for every problem is his corporate greed hammer.
We get it. He'd raise corportate taxes and taxes on dividend income and close the fund manager loophole. Great. That won't end racism. That won't stop homophobia. That won't end nativism. Won't bring back harambe. Won't put less plastic in the sea. Wont save the whales.

And the reason I don't fuck with him no more is mostly his fucking acolytes: see, billi. They're all like him; devoid of facts, disconnected from reality, and committed to the cause of St Bernard, no matter what logic and reason may dictate. that he lacks substance. His record getting legislation passed, example one. His Medicare for All lacks a funding mechanism. How do you get basics like that wrong? Ex 2. That after he was statistically out of the race, he decided to go all the way to the convention, then did the bare minimum, if even that. Ex 3. That he didn't fundraise (part of the bare minimum i guess) like he committed to. Ex 4. That he keeps running as a Democrat, then fucking over/ fighting Democrats more than the other party, who is the common enemy(?) Ex 5. There's a whole encylopedia of his fuckery. It's 2019, you can look it up yourself. Google is still free. Long story short; he can get fucked. Then get fucked some more. Then fuck off once he's done that.

[neanderthal]

No, not quite half of the country in that case.

68% of Americans found Trump tweet offensive. 32% is way less than half. https://www.vox.com/2019/7/17/20697721/trump-racist-tweet-polling

Further, even if all 32% of them are unamerican racists, what should be done to them if you have the power? If we can't send them back where they came from, then maybe lock them up in concentration camps or gas chambers?

We don't have to sink to their same low levels. It'd be better to help raise them to a higher level. Legislations such as busing kids around town just won't help resolve any grown up issues. Need to find better ways to unfuck ourselves.

If we parse out the roughly 30% of Americans that didn't vote we're back to 50%

[Crazed_Insanity]

The point isn’t about percentage. If we all go back to where we came from, this country will be empty.

Anyway, I think you just have issue with sanders leadership skillz. However, think about it... we now have a government being corrupted by corporate greed, why do you think a senator fighting against such corruption can do well in such environment?

If we now have a govt freed from corporate lobbyists and sanders still can’t get anything done then I’ll be with you.

Just out of curiosity, which candidates are your top choices this time?

[neanderthal]

The point isn’t about percentage. If we all go back to where we came from, this country will be empty.

Anyway, I think you just have issue with sanders leadership skillz. However, think about it... we now have a government being corrupted by corporate greed, why do you think a senator fighting against such corruption can do well in such environment?

If we now have a govt freed from corporate lobbyists and sanders still can’t get anything done then I’ll be with you.

Just out of curiosity, which candidates are your top choices this time?

Um, ... Native Americans. Or did you forget that they were already here before those three ships carrying political/ religious/ economic refugees from Europe?


"Why do you think a senator fighting against such corruption can do well in such environment?" I don't understand this. I think you mean why do I think "a senator fighting blah blah blah CAN'T do well... blah blah blah." I don't know if you noticed but there wasn't a corruption problem in Obama's presidency. And almost all the candidates have spoken out about the corruption; he's NOT alone in saying he'll get rid of it.

If we have a government without corporate lobbyists I STILL don't want Sanders near it.

I want a Kamala Harris/ Julian Castro ticket. And I want all the other candidates to go run for Senate in their respective states. And I still want Bush and Cheney prosecuted for war crimes, corruption et al. And the entire Trump cabinet investigated and charged as neccesary. And the entire GOP.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Native Americans probably migrated over to the Americas from Asia, Australia and Melanesia according to DNA tests. https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-native-american-origins-dna-20150721-story.html They can all go back to their respective continents! :p

With regard to corruption, I don't know how we ought to define it precisely, but I think it's safe to presume that Obama admin did not render corporate lobbyists useless. Old school dems achieved their power thru fundraising. Pelosi is up there simply because she's one of best fundraisers. Who funds her? Obviously not the regular Joes.

People like Sanders... and now the SQUAD are there not because of corporate funds, but because of the voters! This is why Pelosi has a huge headache now... that she's powerless to control the SQUAD because they are not dependent on corporate money. And obviously Sanders won't be liked very well by other corporately funded senators as well.

Fighting corruption won't be easy, but the 1st step is to at least not take money from big companies. Not very many congress persons can say that they are truly representing the people and not the big companies. Yeah, everybody can say that they'll fight corruption and pay lip service, but let me see you not take money from big companies 1st.

In order for black lives to truly matter in this day and age, either black people need to get very rich or congress members gotta be truly serving the people in their district.

Anyway, I don't know Castro enough to make up my mind, but I'm pretty sure I won't be voting for Harris. She reminds me of Hillary. I suppose that's probably why you like her! ;)

[neanderthal]

Native Americans probably migrated over to the Americas from Asia, Australia and Melanesia according to DNA tests. https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-native-american-origins-dna-20150721-story.html They can all go back to their respective continents! :p

If that's the game we are playing why don't we go back to the paloelithic age when the continents probably hadn't separated from Africa yet? In which case there was no America. Why do you this? You stay saying stupid half thought out shit.

With regard to corruption, I don't know how we ought to define it precisely, but I think it's safe to presume that Obama admin did not render corporate lobbyists useless. Old school dems achieved their power thru fundraising. Pelosi is up there simply because she's one of best fundraisers. Who funds her? Obviously not the regular Joes.

I don't know if you noticed but elections are expensive, they mentioned a billion dollars, and you poors donating $27 at a time don't donate enough money to successfully beat out the Republicans who have no problem taking corporate money. It'd take 37 million of you to donate that much, at that rate. So yeah, i'll take corporate money if it gets us to the target, the White House, and overwhelming majorities in the senate and the Congress, where we can then make rules about corporate money in politics. But i'm not falling for the corporate money purity test; it's a recipe cooked up by those who want to keep us on the fringes of government, beholden to the corporate interests that currently run the government, and forever not having any actual access to power. By having less money in all our political races (in this political climate) we have fewer candidates, and less influence in the government.

I used to believe that shit but i've seen how all it does is keep us sidelined, while billionaires fund their pet candidates. Gimme all the money.
Again, you keep saying stuff that shows how little brainpower has actually been applied to what you've said.

People like Sanders... and now the SQUAD are there not because of corporate funds, but because of the voters! This is why Pelosi has a huge headache now... that she's powerless to control the SQUAD because they are not dependent on corporate money. And obviously Sanders won't be liked very well by other corporately funded senators as well.

Bah humbug. They're all from blue if not solidly blue districts.

Rep Sharice Davids, on the other hand, isnt. She is a freshman congresswoman. You don't see her twitter fingers writing checks the Democratic party has to cash. She's busy doing the work that needs to be done. Oh, and AOCs chief of staff said some really dubious/ intellectually dishonest things about her. He needs to apologise.
Rep Katie Porter, another freshman, is busy kicking ass in the legislature and she too beat a Republican incumbent to get the position.
Rep Lauren Underwood, also beat a GOP incumbent, has probably the best healthcare ideas out there, as a freshman congressperson, because she used to be a nurse. She also not spreading conspiracies on Twitter but busy kicking arse in Congress.
Rep Lucy McBath is another dynamic freshman congressperson who unseated a Republican incumbent, you don't see her exercising her twitter fingers, but shes making real strides in the fight for gun control.

It would behoove you to get your information from more than whatever leftist sites you get them from. It'll open your mind and prevent you from, again, spouting half baked shit.

Fighting corruption won't be easy, but the 1st step is to at least not take money from big companies. Not very many congress persons can say that they are truly representing the people and not the big companies. Yeah, everybody can say that they'll fight corruption and pay lip service, but let me see you not take money from big companies 1st.

This is a perfect example of what i'm talking about about your lack of forethought. The first step to fighting corruption is having control of the White House, Senate, and Congress. If you don't get the money, you don't win elections. If you don't win elections you can't effect change. Don't put the cart before the horse because you don't like looking at the horses ass as it pulls your cart.

In order for black lives to truly matter in this day and age, either black people need to get very rich or congress members gotta be truly serving the people in their district.

This is why I can't respect you; you stay saying stupid shit. You're anti getting money to win elections, and your champion is "anti corruption" then you say dumb shit like this. Black people have to get rich or get non corrupt officials. Really? Fuck off.

Anyway, I don't know Castro enough to make up my mind, but I'm pretty sure I won't be voting for Harris. She reminds me of Hillary. I suppose that's probably why you like her! ;)

I guess if you don't know enough about Castro it's because you haven't bothered to research anything about him. It's 2019. Google is free.
You don't like Kamala because she is a strong woman, like Hillary, you mean.

I like Harris because there are 5, really, viable contenders for the Democratic nomination. In no particular order.
Biden can fuck off. If he can't be prepared enough to defend/ apologise for his previous positions then he hasn't done the work. Which means he ain't serious, and we've got problems that need serious people.
Bernie can fuck off. Because he can fuck off.
Booker has problematic ties to big pharma.
Warren was a Republican. All that shit in the 80s didn't open her eyes? Nah fam.

Castro. I want him to run as Kamala's running mate.
Buttigieg. Go fix your city. My cousin used to live in South bend. I've been there, it needs fixing.
Gillibrand. Nothing against her, just better candidates.
Klobuchar. Same as Gillibrand.
deBlasio. Fix New York. Why ain't they charged Eric Garners killer? Sit down if you can't get that shit right.
Beto. Shoulda taken that momentum and run, again, for Senate. Coryn may not be as reviled as Cruz but he is the closest to Trump by some metric; ... voting record? I don't remember.
Hickenlooper. Go run for senate.
The rest of the white men; go run for senate.
Gabbard, and Williamson. Ha ha. No, for real; quit playing.
Yang/ Messam. Not in 2020 my dudes. Go run for senate as well.

[Tom Servo]

Oh man, deBlasio. Why is he still buzzing around?

[neanderthal]

Oh man, deBlasio. Why is he still buzzing around?

With Trumps ascension to the Emperor With No Clothes, anybody can be Prez. I guess everybody is trying to be.

I, secretly, think they are all onto Bernie's scam, and they're all mostly all running some form of that. Run for White House. Fail. End up with millions in donations. Launder that. How? Write some garbage book. Sell it to yourself/ staff/ contributors. Buy loads of it for your next campaign. Maybe you started a foundation or trust. In which case they buy it. Your kids are the directors of the foundation. They get paid to play words with friends. You shut down your foundation.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway Neanderthal, so what if warren was a republican? I was an atheist /Buddhist too! She also used to be Native American too, but not anymore! :p

You know, what you are doing, is it really so much better than Trump? Go back to where you came from vs fuck off! What’s the difference?

Belittling Warren as Pocahontas vs Republican...

Look, I dislike Hillary and Kamala enough to not vote for them but I’d never tell them to fuck off. Likewise I won’t tell you to fuck off for voting for them. Hey, it’s a free country!

Don’t you think we need more civility? Or we should all just fuck each other as hard as other people fucked us?

And regarding foundations, surely the clintons run them the best? Bernie is probably only 2nd or 3rd rate...

I’m seriously not smart enough to figure out how you end up seeing an ineffective senator Bernie as the devil and Wall Street darling president wanna be Hillary as the angel. My little brain just couldn’t compute...

Pragmatic choice sure, but no need to trump her up that much and put her opposition down that much too. Seriously, who has a bigger foundation? You have problems with Bernie foundation, but no issues with Clinton’s? Or we absolutely need all the money we can get to beat the republicans?

Anyway, win some lose some. At least Bill won thanks to Perot. At least Bernie did not run as 3rd party. Also, if Hillary could embrace a more progressive candidate as vp, she could’ve consolidated the left more.

Stop blaming others for her lost. Hope you can chill out a bit... good luck with Kamala this time.

[neanderthal]

Anyway Neanderthal, so what if warren was a republican? I was an atheist /Buddhist too! She also used to be Native American too, but not anymore! :p

You know, what you are doing, is it really so much better than Trump? Go back to where you came from vs fuck off! What’s the difference?

Belittling Warren as Pocahontas vs Republican...

Look, I dislike Hillary and Kamala enough to not vote for them but I’d never tell them to fuck off. Likewise I won’t tell you to fuck off for voting for them. Hey, it’s a free country!

Don’t you think we need more civility? Or we should all just fuck each other as hard as other people fucked us?

And regarding foundations, surely the clintons run them the best? Bernie is probably only 2nd or 3rd rate...

I’m seriously not smart enough to figure out how you end up seeing an ineffective senator Bernie as the devil and Wall Street darling president wanna be Hillary as the angel. My little brain just couldn’t compute...

Pragmatic choice sure, but no need to trump her up that much and put her opposition down that much too. Seriously, who has a bigger foundation? You have problems with Bernie foundation, but no issues with Clinton’s? Or we absolutely need all the money we can get to beat the republicans?

Anyway, win some lose some. At least Bill won thanks to Perot. At least Bernie did not run as 3rd party. Also, if Hillary could embrace a more progressive candidate as vp, she could’ve consolidated the left more.

Stop blaming others for her lost. Hope you can chill out a bit... good luck with Kamala this time.

Hillary has been investigated more than anyone, I think. They've yet to find any malfeasance. Not one iota of wrongdoing. Same with the Clinton Foundation. Sure, its giant, but there has never been any malfeasance found in its activities. No corruption. No trickeration. No underhandedness. Nothing. Say what (baseless) things you want about Hillary or the Clinton Foundation; they're whistle clean.

So what if Warren was a Republican? Well, lots of things happened while she was a republican, and she didn't bat an eyelid. Sure, she was busy raising her kids. But then suddenly "her eyes were opened?" Yeah, that bird don't fly. Conservatives have been shit political leaders for a longer time than her lifetime. She only started being a democrat in the mid 90s. So throughout the tumultous times of Reagan and Bush I she was GOP. That's a lot of shit to go through before coming to your senses.

My fucks offs are well deserved. You, and Bernie, can both fuck off. You'll notice I use them sparingly, and mostly at Bernie. And his acolytes, like you.

People who didn't vote for Hillary Clinton "fucked us." So, i'm ok on that front. Are you?


You can't see how Bernie is the devil incarnate and the darling of Wall St, Hillary, was going to be our saviour? Did you read my previous post. You need money to win seats at every level. That takes money. When you control the White House, the Senate, and Congress, you can then enact change. And that is the only way you're going to disentangle corporate money from politics.
Do you really think Bernies rants are going to change corporate influence on politics? Is that going to stop the lobbyists from having more access to members of the government than their voters? Really? Shouting at the clouds achieves nothing.

Like I said, i'm a pragmatist.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ain't nothing wrong with being a pragmatist, but I just don't think you should tell others to fuck off whenever you realize others do not have the same 'pragma' as yours.

I, for one, don't need to replace the current right wing neo-nazi racists with another group of left wing neaderthal 'pragmatists', just telling other people they disagree with to fuck off or go back to where you came from. You don't think that kind of attitude just isn't right?

If you truly believe all the Billi types deserve to just fuck off and disappear, then why couldn't the neo-nazi racists want the same thing?

They also believe their president endured a witchhunt like no other and the Mueller report exonerated him!!!

Com'on dude. Both Clintons and Trumps were friends with the like of Jeff Epstein. Is it really possible for one to be angel and the other devil? I think your views are becoming a bit too extreme.

Yeah, I like to believe the Clintons and the dems need to accumulate money in order to fight the good political fight against the republicans, but I kinda find it hard to believe that they could resist the power of the ring. I don't believe Hillary is the Frodo type. She or you may think she is, but I just don't share your faith.

Bernie definitely ain't a complete angel, especially considering his family members, but the reason why I like him the most is because he doesn't seems to change... other than age.

I don't agree with him on many issues, but I trust in his integrity. I am a fan of capitalism, not socialism, but I do believe Bernie is right on target. Our nation is being corrupted by corporate greed. No lives matter at this point. Dude, BLM boiled over when we had a black dem president. I really don't understand how Hillary could do better than Obama. I'm pretty sure if we had President Hillary, we would end up like France. There would be riots starting by both black and white folks in our major cities while we try to nobly fight climate change.

Not saying I like Trump more, just saying we'll be stuck in between a rock and a hard place with those 2 candidates.

With this crazy old ineffective senator as president, at least he'll have veto power over those bills that give corporations big tax cuts or whatever other corrupt dealings. I really do see him as Frodo... too bad he's so old.

That's why I'm also looking at Mayor Pete... he's an admirer of Bernie and seems smarter and more charismatic and actually have military experience.

Anyway, I'm sure we won't be able to convince each other of anything... so good luck with your candidates! :)

[neanderthal]

So, ... Bernie doesn't pay his staff a minimum of $15 an hour. And he's busy calling out corporations for the same. Hypocrisy much?

One of the reasons I cant fuck with Bernie.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Because you’re a fucking moron. Fuck off!

Nah, seriously dude... sanders was the 1st to Unionize his staffs, giving $20/hr for interns.

You know, you might as well accuse sanders is employing slave labors with use of those volunteers too! My God, what a hypocritical old white slave owner! Hang him!

You know, If there are staffs working extra hours causing salary staffs’ hourly pay to drop below $15/hr, speak up, I’m sure sanders not gonna tell them to fuck off!

Can you find something nice to say about Kamala? Or must you destroy all other candidates so yours could win?

This kind of bs attack happened back in 2016.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sanders-interns-minimum-wage/
If true, shouldn’t this stingy old man learn the lesson by now?

[neanderthal]

And yet there is article (https://www.newsweek.com/sanders-campaign-battles-staff-demanding-15-hourly-pay-which-candidate-says-should-federal-1450103?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true) on Newsweek right now, saying that ain't so.

You keep saying uninformed shit.

It's 2019. Educate yourself before you pontificate.

[Crazed_Insanity]

My suspicion is that his campaign is infiltrated by some left wing Neanderthalic pragmatists.

Accepted a union ‘salary’ job, worked extra hours to make sure it looks like he’s being paid below 15/hr... and then leak it to the media and never give the Bernie campaign a chance to explain... seriously, if you’re not there to volunteer and you need to make a living wage... why would you accept a job that pays lower than living without making a fuss to sanders 1st? If I want a raise, I’d talk to Washington post to help me? Yeah, like Jeff Bezo would care.

Like I said, im surprised they didn’t volunteer and then claim sanders is slave driving them...

Seriously, is that the standard of our journalism? Obtain a one sided draft letter, without giving the other side a chance to explain, and then spread the possible fake news all over the world?

Do you have any news sources saying the Bernie campaign said ‘no comment’ or cannot be reached because he’s fucking shamefully hiding in a hole?

No, even the original Washington post is saying they are unclear whether if sanders know about this incident.

Is it too hard for journalists to dig a little deeper for the truth nowadays？

Nah, the neonazis and the Neanderthals love this kind of smear news.

Anyway, let’s wait and see... you could be right and I could be wrong.

[neanderthal]

My suspicion is that his campaign is infiltrated by some left wing Neanderthalic pragmatists.

Accepted a union ‘salary’ job, worked extra hours to make sure it looks like he’s being paid below 15/hr... and then leak it to the media and never give the Bernie campaign a chance to explain... seriously, if you’re not there to volunteer and you need to make a living wage... why would you accept a job that pays lower than living without making a fuss to sanders 1st? If I want a raise, I’d talk to Washington post to help me? Yeah, like Jeff Bezo would care.

Like I said, im surprised they didn’t volunteer and then claim sanders is slave driving them...

Seriously, is that the standard of our journalism? Obtain a one sided draft letter, without giving the other side a chance to explain, and then spread the possible fake news all over the world?

Do you have any news sources saying the Bernie campaign said ‘no comment’ or cannot be reached because he’s fucking shamefully hiding in a hole?

No, even the original Washington post is saying they are unclear whether if sanders know about this incident.

Is it too hard for journalists to dig a little deeper for the truth nowadays？

Nah, the neonazis and the Neanderthals love this kind of smear news.

Anyway, let’s wait and see... you could be right and I could be wrong.

They're given an "annual wage" that equates to $15/ hr but since most of them work up to 60 hours a week effectively dropping their wage below the $15 Bernie campaigns on, they're saying "hey, your campaigning in this but you aren't really even giving us that."

Technically, ... they are getting that, but realistically, they aren't,. Legalistic bullshit if still bullshit. And technically, Bernie can fuck right off.

[MR2 Fan]

I just wanted to comment regarding the whole minimum wage thing.

The GOP stance is basically a no-win scenario for people.

The frequently cited "entry level jobs aren't meant to be a living wage!" argument...it's often followed up with "go to college!" and therefore get a better job...of course people who go to college also often get burdened with a lot of student debt that takes them decades to pay off...from that "higher paying job". But the GOP doesn't want those loan companies to lose out either.

Also, I thought all of those immigrants were taking our entry level jobs? So how are so many people working for those minimum wage jobs?

I wish more dems would speak about the sheer hypocrisy of the GOP arguments and lay them out simply and easily. Something Ross Perot was good at, making simple charts and doing prime-time TV to show the improper way Washington DC often works.

[Tom Servo]

Also, I thought all of those immigrants were taking our entry level jobs? So how are so many people working for those minimum wage jobs?

Well, that's why Trump and has MAGA folk are for "merit-based" immigration, so they'll be getting the high-paying jobs instead!

[Crazed_Insanity]

They're given an "annual wage" that equates to $15/ hr but since most of them work up to 60 hours a week effectively dropping their wage below the $15 Bernie campaigns on, they're saying "hey, your campaigning in this but you aren't really even giving us that."

Technically, ... they are getting that, but realistically, they aren't,. Legalistic bullshit if still bullshit. And technically, Bernie can fuck right off.

Dude. Can't you wait for the Sanders campaign to respond? Or at least check out what the general morale is really like for those lower paid staffs?

Media has always been so very kind to Sanders you know? It's been a bipartisan media effort to knock him down. Forgive me if I'm skeptical of fake news these days.

[neanderthal]

Dude. Can't you wait for the Sanders campaign to respond? Or at least check out what the general morale is really like for those lower paid staffs?

Media has always been so very kind to Sanders you know? It's been a bipartisan media effort to knock him down. Forgive me if I'm skeptical of fake news these days.

"morale for the lower paid staffs" THIS WHOLE KERFUFFLE is about them. What are you not connecting here? He's not paying them the equivalent of $15 an with the hors they are working. They've been waiting since May when this complaint was initiated. What's a decent amount of more time for them to wait? Did you read the article? Or the one in the Washington Times?

Media have been very very kind to Sanders. Very bloody kind. Especially during the last WH election. They have only started to properly vet him now. Did you see what they did to Hillary? Besides repeating and disseminating the right wing lies about her. "She was too prepared!" Like, ... what the fuck does that even mean?

I see you've joined the "fake news" bullshit wagon. It figures with all your ill informed ideas. But yeah, that was Newsweek. The epitome of fake "news."

[Crazed_Insanity]

I just wanted to comment regarding the whole minimum wage thing.

The GOP stance is basically a no-win scenario for people.

The frequently cited "entry level jobs aren't meant to be a living wage!" argument...it's often followed up with "go to college!" and therefore get a better job...of course people who go to college also often get burdened with a lot of student debt that takes them decades to pay off...from that "higher paying job". But the GOP doesn't want those loan companies to lose out either.

Also, I thought all of those immigrants were taking our entry level jobs? So how are so many people working for those minimum wage jobs?

I wish more dems would speak about the sheer hypocrisy of the GOP arguments and lay them out simply and easily. Something Ross Perot was good at, making simple charts and doing prime-time TV to show the improper way Washington DC often works.

I'm neither a republican nor democrat. Nor am I really socialistic like Bernie.

My opinion is that if you accepted a job with a mutually agreed upon pay, then do it. Do a good job, you might get a raise! If you don't feel like the job is merit based and you don't want to do it anymore, then resign and go find another job. If we all do this, I'm sure job market will sort itself out.

Regarding to expensive college degrees, I do believe that's really out of line and not worth the money. Again, students have to be realistic with the kind of pay their degrees can get them. It's not like we just don't know how much college grads get paid. If your future pay won't be able to cover your student loan payments in the future, maybe you should reconsider going to a cheaper school? We shouldn't allow banks and schools to take advantage of students, but 'adult' students also need to try to grow up and take up some responsibilities. Look at price tags and check and see if you have that much money in your pocket.

I think our healthcare is in such mess for a similar reason. We have no price tags to comparison shop and we assume insurance will cover the crazy costs. Such wacky system naturally invites the greedy corporate types.

Anyway, back to minimum wage, I seriously find it hard to believe that workers are so dumb and desperate and would not be able to say no to a prospective employer offer them super low pay... that we need government intervention to help the poor workers out. Our workers really need to be educated to have better self esteem.

[Crazed_Insanity]

"morale for the lower paid staffs" THIS WHOLE KERFUFFLE is about them. What are you not connecting here? He's not paying them the equivalent of $15 an with the hors they are working. They've been waiting since May when this complaint was initiated. What's a decent amount of more time for them to wait? Did you read the article? Or the one in the Washington Times?

Media have been very very kind to Sanders. Very bloody kind. Especially during the last WH election. They have only started to properly vet him now. Did you see what they did to Hillary? Besides repeating and disseminating the right wing lies about her. "She was too prepared!" Like, ... what the fuck does that even mean?

I see you've joined the "fake news" bullshit wagon. It figures with all your ill informed ideas. But yeah, that was Newsweek. The epitome of fake "news."

Point is that I'd like to hear both sides of the story before passing a judgment. Washington Post, news week or whatever, simply haven't shown me the other side of the story yet.

If Bernie remains quiet about this and never make any public announcements to clear this up and big chunk of his staffs quit or starts picketing, then you may be on to something. Let's just wait and see before telling people to fuck off, okay?

Don't allow these one sided stories to continue to build up your confirmation bias please.

I just find it hard to believe the person who's the 1st to unionize campaign staffs would be that stingy to his own staff. If true, that's not just hypocrisy, that's plain stupidity. Why would he think he could win this way? How much money is he going to make while nickle and diming his staff during his campaign? Makes no sense. It's more plausible that he's being framed.

[Tom Servo]

Not truly politics, but "Diamond and Silk", two of Trump's more vocal social media supporters, posted this as proof that Trump's "go back where you came from" speech wasn't racist.


Nancy Pelosi said the WORDS that the President used were racist. But those same words are in the Dictionary. Does that mean that the Dictionary is now racist? Should all Dictionaries be banned since Democrats are offended by words? #TDS

That's some galaxy brain shit right there.

[George]

Not truly politics, but "Diamond and Silk", two of Trump's more vocal social media supporters...

I recently visited my father and his sister back east. If their TV is on, it's on Fox News. I had never heard of those two before, but I caught part of their act. At first, I thought it was a comedy skit, such as what you'd see on Saturday Night Live.

Mm-hmm!

Actually, I thought that about a lot of what I saw on Fox News over a long weekend, but those two were the most entertaining.

I know that's right!

[neanderthal]

Point is that I'd like to hear both sides of the story before passing a judgment. Washington Post, news week or whatever, simply haven't shown me the other side of the story yet.

If Bernie remains quiet about this and never make any public announcements to clear this up and big chunk of his staffs quit or starts picketing, then you may be on to something. Let's just wait and see before telling people to fuck off, okay?

Don't allow these one sided stories to continue to build up your confirmation bias please.

I just find it hard to believe the person who's the 1st to unionize campaign staffs would be that stingy to his own staff. If true, that's not just hypocrisy, that's plain stupidity. Why would he think he could win this way? How much money is he going to make while nickle and diming his staff during his campaign? Makes no sense. It's more plausible that he's being framed.

Let me get this straight; you're asking me to not
continue to build up my confirmation bias
AS I QUOTE NEWSWEEK AND THE WASHINGTON POST while you wait to get "the other side side of the story?" I'm not sure what sources you need to go to to get a straighter story than Newsweek and the W Times.

Here's the other side of the story; the side you haven't heard. If there is no media exposure of this story Bernie doesn't live up to the ideals he espouses, and they continue to be props for his circus act presidential run since they were the "first campaign staff to unionise." This is the bullshit that people who aren't affected by such tolerate, and why I call us black voters pragmatists.
It's a spin, as it were, on something like separate but equal; on paper, its fair. This is how it is, it works, and we all agree it's fair, right? Except it's not, and change won't happen to fix it, until it's forced. By exposure.


Oh wait, that's what the Times and Newsweek are doing.

I keep telling you Bernie is scum, but I guess i'm part of the "fake news."

Bernie don't need more time to get this right. If he really is a "champion of the working poor" he NEEDS TO do right by his campaign staff immediately, and not only compensate them at a wage that is equivalent to $15/hr, but he must pay them overtime for the time they are putting in, and backpay for the time they've already put in. Otherwide, he's a fraud. Wait a minute, he is.

I'm quite willing to eat my words and say "Bernie is not a fraud" if he does right by his campaign staff and pays them for all time worked, and for their overtime. As a "champion of workers," he knows that a work week is 40 hours, and compensating them accordingly for anything over that is only fair.

Don't bet on it.

[neanderthal]

Not truly politics, but "Diamond and Silk", two of Trump's more vocal social media supporters, posted this as proof that Trump's "go back where you came from" speech wasn't racist.



That's some galaxy brain shit right there.

SMH.

Y'all remember the racial draft from Chappelle Show; "the black delegation would like to request a trade!" :lol:

[neanderthal]

I just wanted to comment regarding the whole minimum wage thing.

The GOP stance is basically a no-win scenario for people.

The frequently cited "entry level jobs aren't meant to be a living wage!" argument...it's often followed up with "go to college!" and therefore get a better job...of course people who go to college also often get burdened with a lot of student debt that takes them decades to pay off...from that "higher paying job". But the GOP doesn't want those loan companies to lose out either.

Also, I thought all of those immigrants were taking our entry level jobs? So how are so many people working for those minimum wage jobs?

I wish more dems would speak about the sheer hypocrisy of the GOP arguments and lay them out simply and easily. Something Ross Perot was good at, making simple charts and doing prime-time TV to show the improper way Washington DC often works.

Unfortunately the Dems are busy responding to the media pathway dictated by the Republicans, rather than stating their intentions, more clearly, more forcefully.
Rather than a litany of "well, they're trying to take away your healthcare, and we aren't" I really wish they hammer home the things that they want to implement, and not let the GOP dictate that for them.

Reporter: care to comment on XXX by YYY?
All Democratic candidates "Look, we are campaigning on a platform of national healthcare for all which will include dental care, mental health and abortion, improved teacher pay along with education access for all, marriage equality, national childcare, less military spending as we are not at war with anybody (GOP will spin that as "they're not patriotic" and rile up their base) lower taxes for the middle class along with higher corporate taxes and an end to the loopholes that the wealthy use to shelter their money offshore and tax free, (that's way too wordy for the American public; they want a three word soundbite; so does the media) curtailing lobbyists access to lawmakers, getting dark money out of politics, and overturning citizens united. We believe maternity and paternity leave for all new parents, sick leave for all employees, fairness in policing and the criminal justice system, and we intend to right the wrongs of previous administrations in those arenas. Our aim is to reverse global warming (whatever the current nomenclature is; climate change?) reduce our use of plastics, train more of the American public to take on the high skill jobs we are currently outsourcing (i'm sounding a bit nativist there, but we give out a fuckton of H1-B visas, those careers tracks could be jobs for Americans) Etc etc etc."

They can't even get ten points together and all campaign on them.
There's good ideas among the candidates, but they need to those ideas together into one cohesive whole.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Neanderthal, everybody is going at this according to Washington post report, remember senator sanders was no friend of Jeff, the boss of Washington post, when he introduced the stop Bezos act.

Amazon has now raised its min wage challenging other retailers to follow suit..., which is good of course. However, maybe this is a little pay back... because sanders has vilified Amazon a bit unfairly as well... surely not everyone received the same low pay as seasonal workers...

Bernie’s campaign is now full of seasonal workers, time for Bernie to get a taste of the same medicine!

Anyway, no matter what really happened, I’m sure the reality still won’t be as bad as the the ways some conservative folks who’d hire illegals cheaply and then threaten to deport them if they don’t do a good job!

I’m not expert on employment law, but as a salaried worker, can you be forced to work 60hrs/wk? I’d imagine if you worked 40 and then get fired, you could take your employer to court, right? If you don’t want to work OT, just don’t show up.

I’d like to see Bernie fire salary people for not working OT without pay. If that’s true, then of course he’d lose my vote. If this is merely fuzzy math, people purposely try to force the math to below $15/hr by working extra hrs, then it’s just BS.

[Tom Servo]

Neanderthal, everybody is going at this according to Washington post report, remember senator sanders was no friend of Jeff, the boss of Washington post, when he introduced the stop Bezos act.

Please don't run with this idiotic Trumpian trope. Much like the guy who now owns the LA Times, there's every indication that the owner is taking a hands-off approach to the paper and letting their editorial positions stand on their own. I have no doubt that journalists at either of those papers would raise hell if they were told by their owners what they can write in both articles and opinion pieces.

Hell, the Post ran an op-ed from Ben Shapiro a week or so ago, so I think it's fair to say that Bezos isn't dictating the editorial staff of the Post.

Even if you don't trust the owner at the top, there are lifelong journalists who take that profession *really* seriously at both papers and you would hear about it if they had doubts.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I’d tend to agree with you, but there must be a reason Washington post was the 1st to report this story.

Could very well be coincidental, but I suppose we’ll never know for sure.

So you believe the Post posted a fair report on Bernie Sanders? Whenever we get a draft/leaked memo, just publish it like Wikileaks?

They are supposedly in the middle of negotiating and can’t comment yet, so we’ll just have to let this one sided news circulate for a while... at least Neanderthal should be happy about that! :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Rather than a litany of "well, they're trying to take away your healthcare, and we aren't" I really wish they hammer home the things that they want to implement, and not let the GOP dictate that for them.

Okay, this is something I fully agree with.

Dems are totally reactive, fire fighting, without any long term plan/vision.

They couldn’t counter gerrymandering, when they had the WH and senate majority, they had no list of judges to fill vacant seats!

Republicans have much longer term devious plans and are executing their plans whether if they’re majority or minority. Liberals really need to get smarter about it. They need a long term cohesive plan... rather than fighting it amongst themselves.

Hillary and Bernie should’ve worked together.

Pelosi and the squad also need to work together.

20 presidential candidates need to sit themselves down and decide amongst themselves to narrow the field down to maybe 3?

1 old white male
1 young black female
1 progressive candidate

And let the voters decide thru primary which way they want to go.

At the very least, please stop attacking one another and give trump more ammo!

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1781581001

Okay, Bernie spoke, and of course Neanderthal probably still won’t have any of it. Bernie is Satan!!! I don’t care what anyone says!!!

Damage done. Hope at least Neanderthal and the brown nosers at the Post are happy.

This news cycle had probably been less than 24hrs? I guess it’s asking too much for journalists to confirm stuffs these days. Gotta be the 1st to leak!!!

[Tom Servo]

So you believe the Post posted a fair report on Bernie Sanders? Whenever we get a draft/leaked memo, just publish it like Wikileaks?

I haven't read the article in question, but as a general rule, I trust the Post (and most major newspapers) to pursue drafts/leaked memos but also verify their veracity before publishing to their best of their ability, and to retract the story in the future if it comes out that it wasn't accurate.

As best as I can tell, papers like that do make mistakes but are quick to own up to those mistakes when they've made them. I feel like it's very rare to either see them continue to say something is true when it's demonstrably not nor to accept something like a leaked memo without at least doing something to try to verify its authenticity. I also would expect that they have reached out to the Sanders campaign for comment.

FWIW, I also think Newsweek is a shell of its former self and is one of the news sources I trust less than I did 20 years ago.

[neanderthal]

I haven't read the article in question, but as a general rule, I trust the Post (and most major newspapers) to pursue drafts/leaked memos but also verify their veracity before publishing to their best of their ability, and to retract the story in the future if it comes out that it wasn't accurate.

As best as I can tell, papers like that do make mistakes but are quick to own up to those mistakes when they've made them. I feel like it's very rare to either see them continue to say something is true when it's demonstrably not nor to accept something like a leaked memo without at least doing something to try to verify its authenticity. I also would expect that they have reached out to the Sanders campaign for comment.

FWIW, I also think Newsweek is a shell of its former self and is one of the news sources I trust less than I did 20 years ago.

Journalism 101. don't print what you can't verify. I remember that from my class in 1995! And if you can't verify, you have to print that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

FWIW, I’m not trying the smear the entire WP as fake news organization.

Read the article yourself and decide if your were the editor, would you post that story?

That story seemed one sided. If you don’t have any preexisting bias against Bernie, I’m pretty sure you’ll find it hard to believe.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Journalism 101. don't print what you can't verify. I remember that from my class in 1995! And if you can't verify, you have to print that.

What? I’m assuming there’s a typo in there?

[neanderthal]

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1781581001

Okay, Bernie spoke, and of course Neanderthal probably still won’t have any of it. Bernie is Satan!!! I don’t care what anyone says!!!

Damage done. Hope at least Neanderthal and the brown nosers at the Post are happy.

This news cycle had probably been less than 24hrs? I guess it’s asking too much for journalists to confirm stuffs these days. Gotta be the 1st to leak!!!


"We're in the process of negotiating." said the grifter. I notice that he didn't say, "yeah, we messed up there, we gotta fix it." Instead, it says we are going to limit their hours so that they are fairly compensated.

Unlike you, I read. I read almost everything I am presented.

Amazon and Walmart both did the thing where they paid employees more, but then cut their hours. Both companies Bernie has excoriated for their wage practises. And now he is doing essentially the same. It's not exactly the same but it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck and tastes like a duck. I'm just saying.
Just pay them the OT Bernie, stop being scummy!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, both sides of the stories are out there now. I’ll let the readers make up their own minds about the hypocritical Bernie.

Btw, I don’t know about your employer, we need approval for working overtime. We can’t just decide to give ourselves a raise by staying in office longer.

Anyway, you know Bernie is a Scrooge just like you know I can’t read. I make lots of typos and grammatical errors too, and it’s nice to know that you are just so perfect. :)

[neanderthal]

Okay, this is something I fully agree with.

Dems are totally reactive, fire fighting, without any long term plan/vision.

They couldn’t counter gerrymandering, when they had the WH and senate majority, they had no list of judges to fill vacant seats!

Republicans have much longer term devious plans and are executing their plans whether if they’re majority or minority. Liberals really need to get smarter about it. They need a long term cohesive plan... rather than fighting it amongst themselves.

Hillary and Bernie should’ve worked together.

Pelosi and the squad also need to work together.

20 presidential candidates need to sit themselves down and decide amongst themselves to narrow the field down to maybe 3?

1 old white male
1 young black female
1 progressive candidate

And let the voters decide thru primary which way they want to go.

At the very least, please stop attacking one another and give trump more ammo!

You DO know that gerrymandering is done at the state level, right? That the feds can really only do things like reenact and enforce the Voting Rights Act. You're acting like there wasn't a "worst period Congress period ever capital period!" while the Dems had all the chambers, with fillibusters and whatnot. Like I said, stay saying dumb shit.

Oh, you do know there was a case that was decided by the Supreme Court (Shelby vs Holder, 2013.) that invalidated parts of the Voting Rights Act, allowing the gerrymandering that you just spoke against, right? :eek: You do know that that same Supreme Court was essentially on the ballot in 2016, to be able to appoint the next SC justice, right? Oh wait, you and your ilk decided that's not important. That purity politics was more important. And y'all pissed away the opportunity to re-frame the makeup of the SC, and now Trump has not only appointed 2 judges to it, but he's stacked the lower courts as well.

Hillary didn't need to work with Bernie. Fuck Bernie. With a rusty running chainsaw.

The "squad," AOC (really,) need to rest their twitter fingers. That constant twittering undoes planning and strategy. It allows the GOP to install counter measures to foil what the Democratic Party is trying to achieve; a drawn out and VERY PUBLIC hearing and investigation by the Congress, a vote of impeachment several months before the elections, and then put the GOP on the spot. If they don't act in the Senate you use that against them in all the political advertising leading up to the elections imperiling their chances to hold on to that chamber.
But busy twitter fingers demanding impeachment now rather than a deliberate undeniable investigation and trial are busy giving the public the impression the Pelosi doesn't know what she is doing. And giving Trump and republicans ammo to further the divide. I trust Pelosi more than "the squad."


1 old white male
1 young female
1 progressive candidate

You stay trying this shit, don't you? On 1; FUCK BERNIE! Fuck Biden too, and the rest can run for senate. That would benefit everybody more.
on 2; Any of the females is preferable. Except for Williamson and Gabbard. They can sit down. Gabbard can go find an empty stadium and take ALL the seats. She can take all the tailgating seats in the parking lot too!
On 3; which candidate isn't progressive? And who's rubric are we using to determine what is and isn't progressive?

The far left (Bernie fans and acolytes) are who is dividing the party. They are the ones who failed to showup and vote for the candidate on the left in 2016. They wrote in "Harambe" and "Bernie" and allat nonsense. We know that. Bernie is not even in our party, why is he campaigning as a Democrat? The fringe tea party left need to go form their own party, and stop co opting ours for their nefarious purposes.

[neanderthal]

Anyway, both sides of the stories are out there now. I’ll let the readers make up their own minds about the hypocritical Bernie.

Btw, I don’t know about your employer, we need approval for working overtime. We can’t just decide to give ourselves a raise by staying in office longer.

Anyway, you know Bernie is a Scrooge just like you know I can’t read. I make lots of typos and grammatical errors too, and it’s nice to know that you are just so perfect. :)


I've never heard of any job, EVER. period. where employees decide to work overtime on their own. EVAH! It's almost always a request from the higher ups to stay longer.

Maybe you should go to reddit and read some of th malicious compliance stories there.

[Tom Servo]

Read the article yourself and decide if your were the editor, would you post that story?

I'm having a hard time finding the specific link, mind posting it again?

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'm having a hard time finding the specific link, mind posting it again?

I think this was the original from yesterday: https://beta.washingtonpost.com/politics/labor-fight-roils-bernie-sanders-campaign-as-workers-demand-the-15-hourly-pay-the-candidate-has-proposed-for-employees-nationwide/2019/07/18/3a6df9f4-a966-11e9-9214-246e594de5d5_story.html?outputType=amp

Bernie’s defense:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/07/19/bernie-sanders-campaign-staff-wage-15-dollars-per-hour-union/1781581001/

[Crazed_Insanity]

I've never heard of any job, EVER. period. where employees decide to work overtime on their own. EVAH! It's almost always a request from the higher ups to stay longer.

Maybe you should go to reddit and read some of th malicious compliance stories there.
When I was young and worked in fast food, I wouldn’t mind getting more hours paying at a higher rate, but I don’t alway get that though.

Even in engineering now, we do get OT pay, but at the same rate. Anyway, management cannot force us to work overtime, and we also need management approval to work OT. Currently we’re in a mandatory no OT phase! It’ll probably take a VP to approve OT pay....

I’m not even in a union. Not sure what kind of lousy union Bernie setup for his staff... can be forced to work OT without pay.

If I worked in that campaign or a startup that I truly believe in, I’d probably work extra hours for free and not bitch and whine to WP about it.

If I can’t afford to work like that because I have to feed my wife and kid..., then I wouldn’t work for that campaign nor any startups.

I still think the leaker is most likely trying to set Bernie up. I find it difficult to believe Bernie is really that stupid.

Also, cutting work hours from 60/wk down to 40/wk is not being mean nor unreasonable to the workers. That is not the same as employers cut worker hours just enough so that they don’t get full time benefits. Workers should take days off!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Neanderthal, regarding other political issues, dems are already weak enough, no need to piss off the progressives more.

I don’t agree with a lot of the progressive agendas, but dems can’t afford to continue to be as dismissive. Progressives running as 3rd party definitely won’t help the liberal cause. Fucking them will result in fucking self.

Hillary’s campaign slogan was the right one. We can only be stronger together.

[neanderthal]

Neanderthal, regarding other political issues, dems are already weak enough, no need to piss off the progressives more.

I don’t agree with a lot of the progressive agendas, but dems can’t afford to continue to be as dismissive. Progressives running as 3rd party definitely won’t help the liberal cause. Fucking them will result in fucking self.

Hillary’s campaign slogan was the right one. We can only be stronger together.

But you didn't vote for her. Over some manufactured lies. Her emails? The Foundation? Untrustworthy? You fell hook line and sinker for the spin.

[neanderthal]

What? I’m assuming there’s a typo in there?

If you can't verify the story through another source, but it's worth publishing, you print in your story "we couldn't verify the details of these allegations" or similar verbiage.

[neanderthal]

Neanderthal, regarding other political issues, dems are already weak enough, no need to piss off the progressives more.

I don’t agree with a lot of the progressive agendas, but dems can’t afford to continue to be as dismissive. Progressives running as 3rd party definitely won’t help the liberal cause. Fucking them will result in fucking self.

Hillary’s campaign slogan was the right one. We can only be stronger together.

I refuse to be held hostage by some left wing zealots. If Bernie is nominated i'm writing Hillary Clinton on my ballot.
Because;
Two can play the game.
Tit for tat.
Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
I be petty as fuck.
Pick the idiom of your choice

[neanderthal]

When I was young and worked in fast food, I wouldn’t mind getting more hours paying at a higher rate, but I don’t alway get that though.

Even in engineering now, we do get OT pay, but at the same rate. Anyway, management cannot force us to work overtime, and we also need management approval to work OT. Currently we’re in a mandatory no OT phase! It’ll probably take a VP to approve OT pay....

I’m not even in a union. Not sure what kind of lousy union Bernie setup for his staff... can be forced to work OT without pay.

If I worked in that campaign or a startup that I truly believe in, I’d probably work extra hours for free and not bitch and whine to WP about it.

If I can’t afford to work like that because I have to feed my wife and kid..., then I wouldn’t work for that campaign nor any startups.

I still think the leaker is most likely trying to set Bernie up. I find it difficult to believe Bernie is really that stupid.

Also, cutting work hours from 60/wk down to 40/wk is not being mean nor unreasonable to the workers. That is not the same as employers cut worker hours just enough so that they don’t get full time benefits. Workers should take days off!

So you;
a admit Bernie is running a lousy labor shop
b admit one doesn't assign themselves overtime.

Yet you just made a post essentially claiming the latter, that they did it themselves. Like I said; you stay posting bullshit.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, it’s obvious our minds are set, others are free to make up their own minds in this free country.

[Tom Servo]

I think this was the original from yesterday: https://beta.washingtonpost.com/politics/labor-fight-roils-bernie-sanders-campaign-as-workers-demand-the-15-hourly-pay-the-candidate-has-proposed-for-employees-nationwide/2019/07/18/3a6df9f4-a966-11e9-9214-246e594de5d5_story.html?outputType=amp

Bernie’s defense:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/07/19/bernie-sanders-campaign-staff-wage-15-dollars-per-hour-union/1781581001/

I would post it. It cited documents that they apparently verified were real, had comment from the campaign itself, comment from the union representing the workers, and made it clear that Sanders himself was not necessarily aware of or endorsed what was happening. Seemed pretty fair to me.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Fair enough from that perspective.

WP posted the article to ask Bernie, hey, what’s up with that?

However, my perspective is that WP’s article could mislead readers into believing Sanders is indeed a hypocritical jackass!

Anyway, so do you believe he’s a hypocritical jackass?

[Tom Servo]

I don't necessarily. I think it means that he either is a hypocrite or that he's not keeping tabs enough on his campaign. Ultimately one of the biggest flaws for Trump, IMHO, is that the buck stops anywhere but here. Not reading his rebuttal in USA Today would lead me to think that he's not avoiding the buck, but that he may not be at all aware of what's happening in his name. Reading his rebuttal I think that he wasn't aware, wants to fix it, and should probably double his efforts to manage this whole campaign as, ultimately, the entire thing leads back to him. It's undoubtedly a problem that he didn't apparently know this was happening (or at least says he didn't know). I also wouldn't give Jeff Bezos any credit if he claimed he had no idea that people in his distribution centers were being overworked.

[neanderthal]

I don't necessarily. I think it means that he either is a hypocrite or that he's not keeping tabs enough on his campaign. Ultimately one of the biggest flaws for Trump, IMHO, is that the buck stops anywhere but here. Not reading his rebuttal in USA Today would lead me to think that he's not avoiding the buck, but that he may not be at all aware of what's happening in his name. Reading his rebuttal I think that he wasn't aware, wants to fix it, and should probably double his efforts to manage this whole campaign as, ultimately, the entire thing leads back to him. It's undoubtedly a problem that he didn't apparently know this was happening (or at least says he didn't know). I also wouldn't give Jeff Bezos any credit if he claimed he had no idea that people in his distribution centers were being overworked.

Neither of these is a good look for him.

Sure, he's not going to know the nuts and bolts of the everyday stuff going on the campaign. There's a campaign manager to take care of that and office managers at each office to deal with that before that. And that's fair; but if it's been brought to his attention and he's leaving it to his subordinates to handle it, to me it means he doesn't have integrity. Why shout from the rooftops about "the working class" and "they deserve a living wage," when you're not going to make sure that your own campaign reflects your values.
If it's only just been brought to his attention he should immediately fix it; ... for his integrity.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don't doubt his integrity. I do doubt his administrative abilities though. My only worry for Sanders if he becomes president is that he'll be another Carter. Super nice dude, but just couldn't run the country very well because he's not on top of the people below him, or simply lacking people skills.

This kind of incident is not new. It happened back in 2016, which is why he decided to unionize his staff, promise to pay even interns $20/hr. Yet, not sure how this kind of thing can happen again.

I can't believe he's a hypocrite. My guess is either he's really ineffectively incompetent at managing people or perhaps somebody infiltrated his campaign just to frame him. Of course I'm leaning toward the later. Time will tell.

3rd option I can think of is the campaign manager is being a real pragmatist, knowing they don’t have sufficient funds to support $20/hr interns. So the ‘negotiation’ was their attempt to find a good compromise between ideal and reality... but I suppose this option still kinda falls under the ineffective/incompetent option... and it’s rather pointless to offer people promises you can’t deliver... like free healthcare and college education... if their campaign is really struggling with payroll, I hope Bernie can now be more sympathetic for Jeff Bezos... ;)

Hope we can get a more transparent reporting of this issue later...

My hope is for media to report more facts and provide less room for us to speculate.

[Tom Servo]

My hope is for media to report more facts and provide less room for us to speculate.

That feels like an unreasonable request. As far as I can tell, they reported the facts as they knew them, and of course different sides feel differently. What other facts would you expect them to provide? Or, maybe more importantly, what would you consider the factual threshold to be between reporting something and not reporting something?

(Aside: I know we normally [spoiler] him, but this felt like a reasonable conversation and I chose not to. If that bothers anyone, I'll go back and edit my posts)

[Crazed_Insanity]

If somebody is accusing somebody else of something, we should try to get stories from each side... or at least indicate that you tried to reach the other side but the other side has no comment or something...

Shouldn’t be like covering a high speed chase or natural disaster... just present people this live feed as we go along...

We bring to you this high speed chase live and the driver may not even be aware of the fact he’s being chased by cops!

Anyway, that’s just me.

[Tom Servo]

I understand the idea that not getting comment directly from Sanders isn't great, but given that this is about his campaign and the campaign itself issued a statement feels like that's essentially the same thing. If his campaign spokespeople are saying things without his knowledge, that is...not great.

[Crazed_Insanity]

So we have plenty of room to speculate with this kind of reporting right?

I’ve never studied journalism so for sure I don’t know what I’m talking about. But if media wants to shed it image of fake news, they really need to up their game.

[Tom Servo]

I have no idea how you got that out of what I said. He has specific people who speak for the campaign - spokespeople. People he hired to. specifically. speak. as. the. campaign. They made a statement.

Yes, I'd rather have a statement directly from Sanders (that, if he had been willing to give, I 100% guarantee that the Post would have tripped over themselves to put online), but if he didn't give that statement, he *chose* to let his campaign to speak for itself via its spokespeople, who are hired by him to do that job.

Again, I don't know what you expect. If an official just refuses to comment, the media shouldn't report on anything they do?

[neanderthal]

I don't doubt his integrity. I do doubt his administrative abilities though. My only worry for Sanders if he becomes president is that he'll be another Carter. Super nice dude, but just couldn't run the country very well because he's not on top of the people below him, or simply lacking people skills.

This kind of incident is not new. It happened back in 2016, which is why he decided to unionize his staff, promise to pay even interns $20/hr. Yet, not sure how this kind of thing can happen again.

I can't believe he's a hypocrite. My guess is either he's really ineffectively incompetent at managing people or perhaps somebody infiltrated his campaign just to frame him. Of course I'm leaning toward the later. Time will tell.

3rd option I can think of is the campaign manager is being a real pragmatist, knowing they don’t have sufficient funds to support $20/hr interns. So the ‘negotiation’ was their attempt to find a good compromise between ideal and reality... but I suppose this option still kinda falls under the ineffective/incompetent option... and it’s rather pointless to offer people promises you can’t deliver... like free healthcare and college education... if their campaign is really struggling with payroll, I hope Bernie can now be more sympathetic for Jeff Bezos... ;)

Hope we can get a more transparent reporting of this issue later...

My hope is for media to report more facts and provide less room for us to speculate.

And yet you think/ thought he should be President?!?! Like i said, you stay saying stupid shit.

I stopped reading after that line, because I really can't. I can't.

[neanderthal]

That feels like an unreasonable request. As far as I can tell, they reported the facts as they knew them, and of course different sides feel differently. What other facts would you expect them to provide? Or, maybe more importantly, what would you consider the factual threshold to be between reporting something and not reporting something?

(Aside: I know we normally [spoiler] him, but this felt like a reasonable conversation and I chose not to. If that bothers anyone, I'll go back and edit my posts)

He's acting like the real journalists didn't go and get the Sanders side of the story from the grifter himself or his staff, because he doesn't like what was written.

And he had the nerve to complain about "fake news?" Where's the Jackie Chan "mind blown" gif when you need it. Or the "are you for real" Nick young one. Because he's going deep today. Deep into that "you're really not making sense here dude" sense.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I have no idea how you got that out of what I said. He has specific people who speak for the campaign - spokespeople. People he hired to. specifically. speak. as. the. campaign. They made a statement.

Yes, I'd rather have a statement directly from Sanders (that, if he had been willing to give, I 100% guarantee that the Post would have tripped over themselves to put online), but if he didn't give that statement, he *chose* to let his campaign to speak for itself via its spokespeople, who are hired by him to do that job.

Again, I don't know what you expect. If an official just refuses to comment, the media shouldn't report on anything they do?
Plenty of news stories ended with reporter saying they tried to reach the other side for comment, but either couldn’t reach them or got no comments. Like I said, I’m cool with that.

Regarding this issue, sanders campaign statement never admitted to paying anyone below $15/hr or below living wage, right? Or did I fail at reading again? I also don’t understand why they had to mention that they’re unclear whether if sanders knows about it . Is he’s being hypocritical... or just clueless about his staff is working insane hours?

Is it too much to ask the media to help us make things clearer for us? They just couldn’t reach Bernie? Fine, I’d like to know if they tried.

As to the ‘fact’, what is a living wage? Is it really strictly based on hourly pay? If I’m getting paid $15/hr, that’s really a living wage?

What if my employer only let me work for just 1hr/wk? I’d be able to live on $15/wk?

I believe minimum living wage should be an annual figure. $15(40hr/wk)(52wk/yr)=$31200/yr

If you worked few more hrs with the same annual pay, then all of a sudden you’re no longer earning a living wage and will end up struggling to put food on the table? What’s the sudden hardship for? Lack of time to buy and prepare food I guess? Or do you eat more when you working longer hours?

Are these really hourly staffs or salary staffs? They are in the middle of negotiating, so they can’t really talk publically at the moment. Do you really need to publish this right now to help the negotiations?

So the workers won! They get the same living wage while working for less hours. But of course the damage is done and Neanderthal is still unhappy about the outcome.

I dunno, I personally think this kind of story is as pointless as the busing story and the more of these stories we come up with that can lower candidate ratings the more likely Trump will get re-elected.

To be fair to Neanderthal, Hillary for sure suffered the most with these kind of stories.

[neanderthal]

LOGIC GYMNASTICS. just like the republicans.

[neanderthal]

Any of you guys watch/ follow Beau of the Fifth Column on YouTube?

I don't remember how he started popping up on my YouTube. I've been out of work for five months, so I think YouTube was running out of ideas.

This fucking dude.


https://youtu.be/2kqqTHs397Y

[Tom Servo]

Plenty of news stories ended with reporter saying they tried to reach the other side for comment, but either couldn’t reach them or got no comments. Like I said, I’m cool with that.

So did this one. It included an official statement from the campaign.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, bottom line is that this kind of stories don’t necessarily give us any definitive answers.

Resulting in people continue to believe whatever they want to believe and consequently further polarization.

People who love Bernie, Hillary or trump will continue to love them while haters will continue to hate.

I guess this is still a developing story and I hope WP will get to the bottom of it and won’t just leave us hanging to speculate whatever we want to speculate...

[Tom Servo]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't feel like I'm having a hard time understanding the story or knowing what it is specifically saying. I do not think that the Post is the problem here.

[neanderthal]

It's ... ironic that wages and healthcare are what are holding up the negotiations in Bernie's campaign.

Aren't those the primary tenets of social justice?

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't feel like I'm having a hard time understanding the story or knowing what it is specifically saying. I do not think that the Post is the problem here.

Not saying you’re jerk of course. Just saying billi reading it thinks the post is trying to get back at sanders for the sake of their owner.

Neanderthal reading it will cause him to think I told you so Bernie is a hypocrite, fuck him!

Groups remain polarized reading these kind of story.

[neanderthal]

And this is just a friendly reminder that Hillary Paid for organisers $40k a year with great health benefits AND a 401K.

And she paid them through the end of the year!

But no class according to Republicans.

[Crazed_Insanity]

$40k(52weeks/year)(~60hrs per week) = $12.82/hour!!!

Dang! Why can’t she pay them a living wage?!?!? No wonder the classless lady lost!

(I’m using Neanderthal logic this time.
Again, to be fair to Neanderthal, she was only for a $12 min wage, so at least she’s not a hypocrite.)

[mk]

How are "lock her up" and "send her back" different?

It seems that Trump is trying to lose again.

[Freude am Fahren]

If by lose you mean win.

Lock her up helped him win.

Our country is sadly filled with cunts who vote.

[Tom Servo]

Not saying you’re jerk of course. Just saying billi reading it thinks the post is trying to get back at sanders for the sake of their owner.

I can get that, but that feels like the kind of conspiracy thinking that I find in lots of Trump supporters. The idea that if the news is bad, it's clearly someone with a vendetta out to hurt the person, so it makes it really easy to dismiss any news you don't want to hear.

Ultimately, a big part of the press' job when it comes to politicians is to hold their feet to the fire and to hold them accountable. Given Sanders' response, it feels like they were ultimately successful. Another way you could read that story is that it ultimately brought attention to someone Sanders himself may not have been aware of and he's now taken steps to fix that situation - if they had chosen not to run the story, then it could easily be fodder a number of months down the road when the Trump campaign hears about it.

[Tom Servo]

If by lose you mean win.

Lock her up helped him win.

Our country is sadly filled with cunts who vote.

Interestingly, Trump relied more and more on anti-immigrant rhetoric leading up to the midterms when the GOP got colossally spanked, so it's definitely not a foolproof tactic.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I can get that, but that feels like the kind of conspiracy thinking that I find in lots of Trump supporters. The idea that if the news is bad, it's clearly someone with a vendetta out to hurt the person, so it makes it really easy to dismiss any news you don't want to hear.

Ultimately, a big part of the press' job when it comes to politicians is to hold their feet to the fire and to hold them accountable. Given Sanders' response, it feels like they were ultimately successful. Another way you could read that story is that it ultimately brought attention to someone Sanders himself may not have been aware of and he's now taken steps to fix that situation - if they had chosen not to run the story, then it could easily be fodder a number of months down the road when the Trump campaign hears about it.

Well, if sanders campaign is turning a blind eye to this situation, I'd fully agree with you AND Neanderthal that we need to hold this hypocrite accountable. However, it is clear to the Post that they are in the middle of negotiations and can't really say much publically at the moment. Very appropriate timing don't you think?

Now the solution for the sanders campaign is to make sure people don't work too much OT, but now Fox News can equate sanders as any other big and greedy corporations or use the example to highlight the dangers of raising min wage... if you treat your employees too well, you'll end up with your work hours cut and some may get laidoff and lots of people will starve... Very well done. I'm sure Neaderthal is happy.

Luckily we have other progressive candidates..., but conservatives working voters probably will believe more firmly that we don't need to raise min wage and get hours or jobs cut...

I'm almost certain the circular firing squad will end up allowing Trump to be reelected..., not because of his hateful rhetorics, but because the liberals were busy dragging each other down. We have the larger majority, but unfortunately we just don't know how to work together... unlike the hateful racists.

[neanderthal]

Well, if sanders campaign is turning a blind eye to this situation, I'd fully agree with you AND Neanderthal that we need to hold this hypocrite accountable. However, it is clear to the Post that they are in the middle of negotiations and can't really say much publically at the moment. Very appropriate timing don't you think?

Now the solution for the sanders campaign is to make sure people don't work too much OT, but now Fox News can equate sanders as any other big and greedy corporations or use the example to highlight the dangers of raising min wage... if you treat your employees too well, you'll end up with your work hours cut and some may get laidoff and lots of people will starve... Very well done. I'm sure Neaderthal is happy.

Luckily we have other progressive candidates..., but conservatives working voters probably will believe more firmly that we don't need to raise min wage and get hours or jobs cut...

I'm almost certain the circular firing squad will end up allowing Trump to be reelected..., not because of his hateful rhetorics, but because the liberals were busy dragging each other down. We have the larger majority, but unfortunately we just don't know how to work together... unlike the hateful racists.

Man, if only some people in the" liberal faction" had voted for the actual candidate vs some third party loon, or writing in a chimps name in the last presidential election. :rolleyes:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Working together is not quite the same as telling people to fuck off you know?

I could’ve easily voted for her if she picked sanders or some other progressive as vp. But I felt she cared more about what wall st want than what I, or other Bernie supporters want. She had the attitude of not caring what the deplorables/progressives think. She knows best. Just trust her. Well, my trust level for Obama has dwindled, I saw no reason why I should trust her more.

Anyway, water under the bridge. My vote was meaningless either way. She had all of CAs electoral votes regardless of who I vote for.

2016 was the year of the antiestablishment candidate. Bernie should’ve been the one, not trump, certainly not Hillary.

I do believe Bernie has probably missed the train. 2020 is going to be quite another animal.

[neanderthal]

If by lose you mean win.

Lock her up helped him win.

Our country is sadly filled with cunts who vote.

Couldn't have said it better.

[neanderthal]

Working together is not quite the same as telling people to fuck off you know?

I could’ve easily voted for her if she picked sanders or some other progressive as vp. But I felt she cared more about what wall st want than what I, or other Bernie supporters want. She had the attitude of not caring what the deplorables/progressives think. She knows best. Just trust her. Well, my trust level for Obama has dwindled, I saw no reason why I should trust her more.

Anyway, water under the bridge. My vote was meaningless either way. She had all of CAs electoral votes regardless of who I vote for.

2016 was the year of the antiestablishment candidate. Bernie should’ve been the one, not trump, certainly not Hillary.

I do believe Bernie has probably missed the train. 2020 is going to be quite another animal.

I know for a fact i wasn't saying fuck off before you and your ilk decided to fuk the entire nation.

[Crazed_Insanity]

My voting decision was not because of you okay! :p

The conspiracy theorist in me simply didn’t sense Hillary cared much about us getting burned... after she won the primary. Her VP pick signaled precisely that it’s gonna be business as established before...

Forget about progressives, let’s just focus on lower/middle class workers in general. Was she more in tune with those people or was she more in tune with the Wall Street bankers?

Do you really believe BLM movement started under Obama admin would’ve been adequately fixed under the Hillary Admin? Or you can just convenient blame all that on the worst congress ever?

Something is out of whack, Bernie was the only serious candidate trying to fix that something for the people. The other 2 just want to be president because they want to be president.

Under president Hillary, I’m almost sure that we’ll have a seemingly less racist nation, fighting climate change, building transgender bathrooms, but we’ll also have more rioters, both black and white... we also won’t see migrants suffer near our borders... we just won’t see that they’re suffering in their own nations while us govt meddles over there for its own interests...

[neanderthal]

Actually, I DO believe that Hillary would have addressed police brutality and criminal justice reform. Mostly because she explicitly called that shit out. (https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/criminal-justice-reform/)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=MPgjAIdXPHY

Bernie Sanders, given a question on the subject immediately turned to his fall back income inequality schpiel. :smh:

[Crazed_Insanity]

If black families’ average income is comparable to average white families, I’m willing to bet we would have less problems.

Something is definitely wrong, anyone can call it out. How to fix it is quite another matter.

Hillary used to be afraid of super predators! That never materialized..., some were saying we have roe v wade to thank. As young black women can abort babies they don’t want, we end up with less unloved babies, which may end up as violent criminals...

Of course these abortions happened not because only black girls are irresponsible, but because they’re just too poor to take care of them!

Financial inequalities passed down from generations is probably the root cause. As Obama, Kanye, OJ become more famous and financially well off, no cop would dare shoot them. Some could even get away with murder!!!

Bernie is not that off base. Poorer Americans are being left behind. And it’s not just black people.

[MR2 Fan]

to my UK friends who now have Boris Johnson as PM

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/027/763/07B89120-B48D-45FB-AF1D-49AF6CD16790.jpeg

[FaultyMario]

If you tolerate this then your children will be next.

[neanderthal]

If black families’ average income is comparable to average white families, I’m willing to bet we would have less problems.

Something is definitely wrong, anyone can call it out. How to fix it is quite another matter.

Hillary used to be afraid of super predators! That never materialized..., some were saying we have roe v wade to thank. As young black women can abort babies they don’t want, we end up with less unloved babies, which may end up as violent criminals...

Of course these abortions happened not because only black girls are irresponsible, but because they’re just too poor to take care of them!

Financial inequalities passed down from generations is probably the root cause. As Obama, Kanye, OJ become more famous and financially well off, no cop would dare shoot them. Some could even get away with murder!!!

Bernie is not that off base. Poorer Americans are being left behind. And it’s not just black people.

Stop talking about black people.

[Dicknose]

Stop talking about black people.

Ill back this up - Billi you come across somewhere between condescending and just downright racist.
Once you start mentioning abortion and future criminals it comes across as eugenics.

It doesnt sound like you even consider this a discussion about actual people.

[neanderthal]

Ill back this up - Billi you come across somewhere between condescending and just downright racist.
Once you start mentioning abortion and future criminals it comes across as eugenics.

It doesnt sound like you even consider this a discussion about actual people.

Thank you.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wasn't really talking about fake people. Also, not promoting eugenics nor abortion. Just an interesting theory based on what happened in the US: https://www.vox.com/2016/1/14/17991872/crime-drop-murder-abortion-roe-v-wade

It is possible that correlation isn't causation, but interesting and reasonable trend nonetheless. For sure this is not about eugenics, because this theory is assuming that a child is more likely to be a messed up criminal if born into an unloving, disadvantaged environment. Race/genes really has little to do with it. Odds are stacked against a child, regardless of race, if the child's mom doesn't want him/her and if the mom is struggling to make a living. No way white/asian kids in similar situation can do better.

I'm just trying to raise a point of... is our criminal justice system really biased against black or actually biased against poor people? Probably a combination of both.

If I'm really a racist, then I'll probably continue to be a racist unless something drastic happens or until I die. Point is it'll be very difficult to change brains already wired that way. Neanderthal can just continue to tell me to fuck off until the day I die I guess.

However, if this is really about our system being rigged against poorer folks, or perhaps just favors the top 1% too much, then perhaps there's something more tangible for our government to fix.

We need a more balanced govt... can't take away women's right to choose, yet cut welfare, education, healthcare... how is that really pro-life? Also I pointed out that racism tend to disappear once the person reached a certain level of economic status. I really do believe the core of our problem is that our system is rigged against poor people or favors the rich too much.

It's much easier for rich people to make even more money, pay less taxes, pay less interests and to often get away with murder because he/she could hire the best lawyers, right? If you're poor, more likely you'll be fucked more often.

This is why I prefer Sanders over Hillary. Although Sanders didn't specifically called out racism, but I do believe he would've made more of a difference and actually help the BLM movement... if our govt could actually find ways to narrow the gap between rich and poor. Not saying I want socialism/communism where everyone makes the same amount, but just few more billionaires and few more homeless people.

[neanderthal]

I'm just trying to raise a point of... is our criminal justice system really biased against black or actually biased against poor people? Probably a combination of both.

If I'm really a racist, then I'll probably continue to be a racist unless something drastic happens or until I die. Point is it'll be very difficult to change brains already wired that way. Neanderthal can just continue to tell me to fuck off until the day I die I guess.

It's crazy that you're being told you're saying some really vile shit and you're cavalierly saying "eh, I guess i'm a racist. I'ma continue to be racist."

Tell you what, i'll make you a deal. I'll tell you to stop fucking off for what you did once you can tell black people how to stop being black.
I didn't ask to be black, neither did anyone who is, and i'm pretty sure none of us wanted to live in a society where our humanity is devalued everyday.

You, on the other hand, um, ... chose to be a cunt. And you continue to do so, and espouse the most abominable and despicable language, idioms and the absolute worst caricatures in your statements about black people. Which is what makes it so easy to tell you to fuck off.

Just. fucking. stop.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I’m just trying to illustrate the point that human lives are being devalued to an inhumane level simply because some of us are too rich or too poor. Migrants/refugees can be devalued to inhumane level. Sex slaves can be devalued to inhumane levels and be rich peoples sex toys.

You like to bad mouth sanders, I just want to point out to you that I believe he has singled out the core problem in our society. There are folks in this world who are just too rich for their own good. Even the migrant issue is due to rich US fucking up poor Latin America for our own selfish interests! Slavery itself was also financially driven. Corporate lobbyists taking over our govt... racism tend to disappear when you get richer, but of course most of the population are not rich...

Anyway, You don’t have to agree with the point of view I am presenting, but I thought painting me as racist was kinda unreasonable and completely missing the point I was trying to make.

If I’ve hurt your feelings, I can apologize for that and I’ll stop talking. But I don’t really feel that I’m wrong just like I don’t feel like sanders is really that hypocritical for supposedly paying people less than $15/hr.(because sanders forced them to work 60hrs/week) Both sanders and Hillary can pay the same wages and you’ll still thin sanders staffs live in poverty and Hillary staffs are living la vida loca!

Anyway, I guess for everyone’s benefit, I’m gonna have to restrain myself and stop responding to your posts.

[Tom Servo]

If there's one thing I can say, Billi, is that this might be a time to maybe do a little more listening instead of complaining that other people aren't listening to you.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes, I will listen to Neanderthal and stop responding to his posts. I guess we bring out the worst in each other.

[neanderthal]

I’m just trying to illustrate the point that human lives are being devalued to an inhumane level simply because some of us are too rich or too poor. Migrants/refugees can be devalued to inhumane level. Sex slaves can be devalued to inhumane levels and be rich peoples sex toys.

You like to bad mouth sanders, I just want to point out to you that I believe he has singled out the core problem in our society. There are folks in this world who are just too rich for their own good. Even the migrant issue is due to rich US fucking up poor Latin America for our own selfish interests! Slavery itself was also financially driven. Corporate lobbyists taking over our govt... racism tend to disappear when you get richer, but of course most of the population are not rich...

Anyway, You don’t have to agree with the point of view I am presenting, but I thought painting me as racist was kinda unreasonable and completely missing the point I was trying to make.

If I’ve hurt your feelings, I can apologize for that and I’ll stop talking. But I don’t really feel that I’m wrong just like I don’t feel like sanders is really that hypocritical for supposedly paying people less than $15/hr.(because sanders forced them to work 60hrs/week) Both sanders and Hillary can pay the same wages and you’ll still thin sanders staffs live in poverty and Hillary staffs are living la vida loca!

Anyway, I guess for everyone’s benefit, I’m gonna have to restrain myself and stop responding to your posts.

You just can't stop being a cunt, can you?

You've been told by 3 different people, that ... perhaps, just shhhh, but you just gotta pop off at the mouth. You're one of those people who thinks their opinion must be heard, even if it contributes nothing.


Yes, I will listen to Neanderthal and stop responding to his posts. I guess we bring out the worst in each other.

The. fuck?!?!?!?! Um, no, I do not bring out the racist in you. That lil fucker is always just beneath the surface and you bring it out your damn self. Your being a cunt has nothing at all to do with me. Your blanket statements about black people have nothing to do with me. They are rarely congruent with whatever is being discussed.

My statements about you, what you say, what you do (have done) have zero, zip, zilch, nada to do with the. black. population. at. large. Yet you stay popping off. One of these days you're gonna forget you're not online and write a check with your mouth that you can't handle. And somebody is going to hear you and cash that shit.

You want to say something to me, about something i've said or done, you quote whatever the fuck it is and go wild. But i'll be damned if i'm not going to check you when you say wild racist shit. Shut the everloving fuck up about black people.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Dude, even DN didn’t say that I’m actually racist. The worst in me is the not shutting up and annoying the shit out of people part. Anyway, I’m really gonna shut up now. Too bad we can’t talk politics anymore but its probably best for everyone’s sake... good nite.

[neanderthal]

Sanders campaign sued for workplace violations. (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/sanders-white-house-campaign-hit-with-federal-labor-complaint?utm_medium=lawdesk&campaign=5185B15C-AD82-11E9-B01F-FB722AECE977&utm_source=twitter)

[FaultyMario]

Why do Republicans routinely raise their voice so much when speaking to Mueller?

[Tom Servo]

I thought that one congressman's name was "Mr. Chatbot" and that'd be awesome.

[FaultyMario]

LOL

Where did that happen? I'm listening from the C-Span feed.

[FaultyMario]

This is fun! Rep. Steube made such a tangle of the mega complex question he wanted to ask Mueller that there was no way he wouldn't have run out of time.

It's also fun how some of the congressmen who have worked in law enforcement or legal counseling play dumb about the work of a prosecutor.

They're clearly smart, but not smart enough to act dumb.

I just wish the people on this hearing would present themselves to public to the full extent of their capabilities.

I guess then it wouldn't be as much fun to hear/watch.

[Tom Servo]

It was actually Rep. Steve Chabot, which is not nearly as hilarious, sadly.

[sandydandy]

Saw a little bit of the hearing. Mueller looked shaky and agitated. The latter especially when speaking to Republicans.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, looks like this testimony won’t change much of anything... sigh...

[Tom Servo]

I think there were two main goals, one of which came out of Mueller giving his public statement a few months back.

It's pretty clear that a lot of Trump's supporters have not read the Mueller report and have only had it filtered through Fox News pundits, AG Barr, and the President himself. I read more than one interview with Trump supporters who seemed surprised to find out from that that the Mueller report did *not* fully exonerate the president, that his appearance on TV was the first they were hearing of that. I think part of this was just to get all this out on TV where it'd reach more people who haven't read it and may not actually know or understand what was in it.

The other I think Ted Lieu managed to do. Establish at least one specific instance of obstruction, get Meuller on the record saying that it was policy of not indicting a sitting president that prevented an indictment, and that the president could be indicted after he leaves office for things in the report.

Otherwise it was like every other congressional hearing. I like how Matt Oswalt put it on Twitter - it's like watching Wheel of Fortune when the puzzle is completely solved yet people keep guessing letters.

[Crazed_Insanity]

it's like watching Wheel of Fortune when the puzzle is completely solved yet people keep guessing letters.

That's a very good analysis of the situation! :D

Back to my previous gripe about today's media..., it's sad that media today can attempt to block certain letters on the board to prevent their viewers from actually solving the puzzle... or perhaps strategically block certain letters to mislead the viewers sometimes.

If there are people seriously surprised by what Mueller has said, they really need to stop living in their bubbles... or perhaps it's time we need to regulate 'free press'?

Maybe attach a credibility rating by 3 independent fact checking organizations for each posted story? If a news story is really new or just breaking, obviously the rating will be left blank, but as time goes on, each stories shall be rated.... then we'll be able to see which media group archives the most bogus news stories!

[Tom Servo]

I don't even know that regulating the free press would help that much (not that I think it's a good idea to begin with, other than the minor regulations we already have in place). I was reading a couple of articles where some journalists were interviewing people outside of Trump's latest campaign rally, the one featuring the "send her back" chant. I'm going from memory, but I believe one interviewee was a 57 year old elementary school teacher who said something along the lines of "I don't follow CNN. I don't follow Fox News. I just read Trump's tweets and QAnon." I'm not sure how press regulation would fix that.

[FaultyMario]

The afternoon session seems to have been more interesting. Granted, I've only watched the highlights reel.

I suppose Mueller feels more comfortable talking to investigators and spies than he does with lawyers. :lol:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Can't fix it for everybody I guess.

Anyway, if CEOs shouldn't tweet, perhaps presidents also shouldn't tweet too?

I suppose a simple fix for social media is having a more stringent rule for high profile public figures that once a post is found to be demonstrably false by other independent fact check groups, then the social media platform need to put a big red X on top of that post and make sure everyone knows that it's false.

Free press is important. Likewise free speech. I don't want platforms censoring speech, but we need to find better ways to stop the spread of fake news somehow. We're getting out of control...

[sandydandy]

The Republicans all sounded like dickheads as they defended their beloved Imbecile in Chief. Mueller was probably fucking with them the entire time refusing to answer their questions. I’d do the same in response to their tone.

On the other hand, Democrats sounded like little puppies with their tongues hanging out as they were fawning over their hero. Pretty pathetic.

Ultimately nothing has been resolved. The whole hearing seems pointless.

[Tom Servo]

Sounded the same as the Kavanaugh hearings, and basically every other hearing.

[Tom Servo]

Trump recently attended one of Charlie Kirk's "Turning Point USA" things, and they had big screens behind him. Someone modified the presidential seal on the screen behind him.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAVsajOWkAEK59H?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

[MR2 Fan]

:lol:

[Crazed_Insanity]

The pic above isn't that clear, instead of "e pluribus unum," the scroll above the eagle appears to say "45 es un titere," which appears to translate from Spanish to mean "45 is a puppet."

A 2 faced puppet who likes golf I guess.

[Tom Servo]

Turning Point USA are saying that an aide, under the duress of a high-pressure situation, picked the first thing they saw on a google image search of presidential seals and put it up by mistake. Said aide has been reportedly fired.

It does seem like the most obvious explanation, but I want to believe somebody did this on purpose and is laughing uncontrollably.

[Leon]

The maniacal laughter option is by far a more entertaining option.

[Freude am Fahren]

Also, for those that don't notice, that two headed eagle is from the Russian coat of arms too. It's all great.

[mk]

Center shield has a row of hammer and sickle.
Other leg green could be money.

Anything but on purpose is clearly fake news.

[neanderthal]

I'd like to once again thank everybody that didn't vote for Hillary got this Supreme Court decision that enables Trump to divert funds from the military to build his wall.

Don't ever say you respect our military.

[FaultyMario]

Look at the bright side, whoever comes after (2020 or 2024) will have it easier to fund a GND.

[MR2 Fan]

another thing I hate about the Trump presidency, I can no longer wear red hats. Not that I wore red hats often before, mind you, but anything that looks like a red hat, now screams Trump Cult.

and it is starting to feel like a cult. We had a LOT of issues with the Bush administration and yes he had his die-hard supporters to be sure, but they never had cult-like merchandise.

It also bothers me that Trump isn't at all charismatic or shows any, at least, the guise of being positive about things. He sounds and acts like the narcisstic sociopath that he is and people just somehow like it. As more scary as it would be to have someone who actually IS charismatic and charming and persuasive at least I could understand why they have followers.

With Trump it makes no sense to me....unless it's just because he's being propped up so much by right wing media.

[Tom Servo]

I don't know what you mean about cult-like merchandise...

https://res.cloudinary.com/teepublic/image/private/s--SjB0hJdI--/t_Resized%20Artwork/c_crop,x_10,y_10/c_fit,w_441/c_crop,g_north_west,h_588,w_441,x_0,y_0/g_north_west,u_upload:v1446840601:production:blank s:wahaid4l0xhexez2gwtn,x_-409,y_-299/b_rgb:eeeeee/c_limit,f_jpg,h_630,q_90,w_630/v1513739532/production/designs/2199266_1.jpg

In other news, I'm annoyed that democrats can't come up with a decent nickname when trying to go after someone. "Moscow Mitch"? When "Mitch McCommunist" is staring you right in the face?

[MR2 Fan]

Mitch McCommunist, isn't he friends with The Hamburglar?

[Tom Servo]

Well, Trump does kinda look like a big pile of ham, so yes?

[mk]

For the cult,
Trump has promised back their stolen country.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If somebody is charismatic enough to be universally appealing, he wouldn’t be a cult leader! ;)

Cult leader tend to be able to stir followers emotions. Problem with liberals is that they tend to be more rational. Not that it’s a bad thing, but girls tend to find Kirk more attractive than Spock.

Anyway, I don’t understand why the delayed approval of the 911 fund didn’t seem to hurt Mitch that much. Or maybe it did but I just didn’t notice? Whatever, I just don’t understand why was Jon Stewart seemed like the ONLY person fighting for our nations true patriots and heros. Why couldn’t the dems took the fight amongst themselves to fight against the republican law makers?

Makes me wish Jon Stewart were running for president. Seriously, with so many candidates, if just one were fighting shoulder to shoulder with Jon, it could be a great publicity too, right?

But I guess it’s just an issue that nobody really cared about?

[MR2 Fan]

I sometimes feel like everything the dems do in public has to be run by committee first to see if it's something palatable for the expected majority of voters, etc. instead of speaking what they really feel on an issue. There's some exceptions of course.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yep. Again, it's probably because they're too rational and practical.

If only some of them could be as crafty as Trump, and still be able to retain sufficient rational thinking, Republicans would have no chance.

Looking back past few decades. Bill Clinton only won thanks to Ross Perot. To his credit, he does look like the most fun and interesting candidate compared to Ross and George... Obama was the only one truly deserving to win, but he didn't win because he was the most rational candidate. He won because he gave us HOPE while the world around us seems crashing down...

Our brains are wired this way. Emotions will always trump rational reasoning.

[MR2 Fan]

Yes, we need someone who isn't afraid to speak his mind, loudly, but with good intentions and is intelligent. That's why I'm a big fan of Teddy Roosevelt...he had a few flaws for sure, but he did a lot of great things as a progressive and big business types were intimidated by him.

[neanderthal]

Hi 911, i'd like to report a murder. Yes. Elizabeth Warren decimated John Delaney on CNN last night.

[MR2 Fan]

did any Dem candidates drop out yet? I'm still not going to pay attention until there's just a couple left.

Also, with all of this talk about the GOP working with the russians, it used to be easy to attach the USSR flag on photos as a sign of the "enemy" per se, but the Russian flag feels so benign in comparison.

[Tom Servo]

I believe Swalwell did. Speaking of: https://politics.theonion.com/right-this-way-to-the-debate-stage-says-tearful-roc-1836833092

[MR2 Fan]

I have no idea about his politics, but I can't take "President Hickenlooper" seriously as a name

[neanderthal]

Booker won this one, IMO.
Castro second, and
The white guy wearing the glasses third. These next three are sorta interchangable in their positions.
Gillibrand.
Gabbard :smh:
Wang.
Harris. Sis gotta do better. She got a lot of time on the mic but didn't do enough to address the topics she was challenged on.
Biden definitely lost. Again.

Regardless, there's far too many people on stage. We only get snippets of their thoughts.

[MR2 Fan]

Twitter trending about COBRA which is a really expensive insurance program you can buy if you're unemployed.

This is Healthcare in America, in a nutshell:

Erik Hinton @erikhinton

COBRA is great because it's an expensive thing that you can only buy at the moment that your income is cut off. Just describing what it is makes it seem like some annoying riddle from mythology.

[neanderthal]

Six months not working so my COBRA is in effect in two weeks. $25 deducted from my paycheck while i'm working.
And I can maintain the same level of coverage for the measly sum of >$675 a month.

[Tom Servo]

California just passed a law requiring that the past few years of tax returns have to be disclosed to qualify to be on the ballot for presidential primaries in the state, and lots of people are very excited about it.

I have no idea why though - it only applies to primaries and Trump is running unopposed for the Republican party, so it literally does nothing. Also, I have no doubt it'll get overturned in the courts. Fun!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wang.

This is not a reply to debate, just to correct. That dudes name is Yang. :p

Anyway, haven’t really watched the whole debates, just some highlights. I don’t think the latest rounds changed my mind much.

My top 3 remain the same:

1) Pete, he seems young, charismatic, smart, admirer of Bernie and the only dude who had active military experiences. Yeah, south bend ain’t perfect yet, but sure has improved on his watch. Not asking a president to fix everything, but hopefully he’ll be able to make America better again... of course the main draw back would be his sexual orientation, but then again, it could be his strength! He got balls for sure. That’s why I like him.

2) sanders/warren, both are pretty much the same. I admire their passion and I think they’re on the right track to fix America, but their policies are a bit too far to the left for me... but considering how far to the right republicans are, maybe they are what we need to achieve the right balance. Main difference between the 2 are their characters... Bernie’s a grumpy old man who doesn’t change with time, whereas warren has transformed from a republican to where she is today. If it comes down to just these 2, not sure which I’d pick.

3) Biden, if America is sick of Trump and wants to go back to business as usual, then he’s definitely the guy.

[Crazed_Insanity]

California just passed a law requiring that the past few years of tax returns have to be disclosed to qualify to be on the ballot for presidential primaries in the state, and lots of people are very excited about it.

I have no idea why though - it only applies to primaries and Trump is running unopposed for the Republican party, so it literally does nothing. Also, I have no doubt it'll get overturned in the courts. Fun!

Yep, that’s CA. At times passing useless jerkoff laws only to make ourselves happy.

Even if we succeed in preventing Trump from appearing on the actual ballot, it still wouldn’t change anything.

Our lawmakers really need to spend their time working on more worthwhile issues...

[MR2 Fan]

the 2020 election will need to be like when a team is prepping for a game with crooked refs. You try to score as many points as possible to overcome the expected bad calls that won't go your way.

To overcome interference we really need to get a LOT of people out to vote. I also hope we get some very strong, very damning campaign ads against Trump....just lay out the facts...his reckless and dangerous tweets (like the one he just posted today about Elijah Cummings house getting robbed...what a sick individual), the fact that a LOT of government positions are still completely VACANT leaving our country less safe.

I wish I was incredibly wealthy so I could set up ads to play on TV/youtube, etc. The average campaign ads won't work.

[George]

I also hope we get some very strong, very damning campaign ads against Trump....just lay out the facts...his reckless and dangerous tweets (like the one he just posted today about Elijah Cummings house getting robbed...what a sick individual), the fact that a LOT of government positions are still completely VACANT leaving our country less safe.

Not arguing with you, but doesn't everyone, including Trump fans, know all that already?

His supporters don't seem to give a damn about all his faults, sins, and alleged crimes.

[MR2 Fan]

Not arguing with you, but doesn't everyone, including Trump fans, know all that already?

His supporters don't seem to give a damn about all his faults, sins, and alleged crimes.

I don't know. A lot of supporters are tuned into right wing news media who either don't even report on the bad things, or try to sugar coat/gloss over the things he says and does.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, I agree with George, I'm sure most Trump supporters either already know or deniers of facts anyway.

It's the same on both sides IMHO. I don't really care about my candidate's faults, because regardless of how faulty my candidate may be, your candidate is faultier! So negative campaigns are really waste of money. You need candidates with more positive messages that might be able to attract more of the moderate people from the other side.

If I have a lot of money, I wouldn't waste it on attacking Trump. I'd use it to promote mayor Pete. Since I don't got a lotta money, I can just promote him for free here. ;)

Anyway, we have to be careful not to adopt this anybody but Trump attitude. Yes, we need to get rid of Trump, but we also have to try to give that job to the right person. No more lesser of the 2 evils. Vote for somebody YOU truly believe in. Dems gotta get their own house in order 1st and pick out the right guy/gal to kick Trump's ass.

[neanderthal]

the 2020 election will need to be like when a team is prepping for a game with crooked refs. You try to score as many points as possible to overcome the expected bad calls that won't go your way.

To overcome interference we really need to get a LOT of people out to vote. I also hope we get some very strong, very damning campaign ads against Trump....just lay out the facts...his reckless and dangerous tweets (like the one he just posted today about Elijah Cummings house getting robbed...what a sick individual), the fact that a LOT of government positions are still completely VACANT leaving our country less safe.

I wish I was incredibly wealthy so I could set up ads to play on TV/youtube, etc. The average campaign ads won't work.

I couldn't agree more. I think my ads would show all of Trumps campaign promises, vs reality.
That second sentence hits home so hard.


Not arguing with you, but doesn't everyone, including Trump fans, know all that already?

His supporters don't seem to give a damn about all his faults, sins, and alleged crimes.

Therein lies the conundrum.


I don't know. A lot of supporters are tuned into right wing news media who either don't even report on the bad things, or try to sugar coat/gloss over the things he says and does.

Then again, there is that.

I'd try to target the people who didn't bother to vote more than the Trump voters. Deplorable definitely fits at this point. And that's at the nicer more kind end of the spectrum of words we could use.

Then again, i'm less concerned about the White House than I am the Senate. Where Moscow Mitch has held up everything but Trump's Tax Paul Ryan's the Koch brothers tax plan.
And state races, where gerrymandering and voter suppression takes place.

It's a political clusterfuck because resources (read; $$$) have to be allocated in so many different ways but the pie is only so big. And most of this wouldn't be a concern if some selfish people hadn't put themselves and their fee fees over their country at the last election.

[Dicknose]

Whats the need to knowing a candidates tax returns?
Its not like there is some min/max amount of income you need to be President.
Seems a very odd thing.

[Tom Servo]

I think the main thing is that it would a) verify whether or not he's full of shit when he talks about how much money he makes and b) where those sources of income are coming from. It'd also let us know how much in debt he is in and to whom.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, mostly (b). I think it’s clear he’s full of shit! ;)

They probably need to come up with some sort of standard conflict of interest form and if you can’t show you’re free from such conflict of interests, then you can’t run or be thrown out of office if you lie about them.

I can understand candidates may want some privacy and not want to disclose your tax returns publicly. However, I think Trump clearly has lots of conflict of interest issues.

Or maybe a simple credit check.

If no US banks would loan you money, you probably shouldn’t be allowed to be in the Oval Office.

[The359]

There has also been the question over whether or not he or his businesses are profiting from his decisions as President.

[neanderthal]

There has also been the question over whether or not he or his businesses are profiting from his decisions as President.

The secret service went through it's annual budget in a few months because of his golf trips to his golf clubs. There hasn't been a question for years if he's profiteering from his presidency. There's just been no one saying "impeach him on emoluments" with any kinda vigor. Except maybe me, but no one listens to me.

And to think of the outrage the GOP had over a blowjob.

[Dicknose]

I see business interests as important - our policians have to declare them, this could be as little as owning shares (maybe even immediate family as well) or a direct involvement in owning or running a business.
But that may not even show on a tax return (shares that dont pay dividends and you didnt sell - wouldnt be income and hence not show)
Maybe the US is different, but here debts wouldnt on your tax return (unless you can claim it against income). In general the sorts of people running for high position would not have personal debt (and certainly not personal assets). It would be through companies or trusts, assets would be in your partners name. This helps protect them. The "no debt" is usually because they cant get a loan due to no assets and hidden income.

And it seems odd to have the law to cover Trumps claims of how rich he is - politicians can lie, why get caught up with a rule about one specific type of lie that isnt really that important.

[Tom Servo]

Per that last point, I think there's some hope that if it comes out that he has a fraction of the net worth he's claimed, then at least the people who voted for him because "he's a good businessman" or what have you might suddenly lose faith in him. I doubt that'd happen. As is, it's been a few-decades long tradition for presidential candidates to at least give that bare minimum of transparency into their finances, and I think there are a few people that are irritated that he kept saying he was going to and now still hasn't and would like to force the issue, especially considering it seems like he's hiding something.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Rumor has it that he has avoided paying taxes for decades by deducting losses... I think it just doesn’t look good for a president to not pay any taxes, plus it looks horrible for a supposedly successful businessman to lose so much money over the years.

Plus, if it turns out that he really is on Putin’s payroll, revealing his taxes could get him impeached! So no way he can show any of that to anybody...

My main beef against trump isn’t tax returns, but conflict of interests. At the minimum, president shouldn’t golf at his own resorts...

[neanderthal]

Per that last point, I think there's some hope that if it comes out that he has a fraction of the net worth he's claimed, then at least the people who voted for him because "he's a good businessman" or what have you might suddenly lose faith in him. I doubt that'd happen. As is, it's been a few-decades long tradition for presidential candidates to at least give that bare minimum of transparency into their finances, and I think there are a few people that are irritated that he kept saying he was going to and now still hasn't and would like to force the issue, especially considering it seems like he's hiding something.

As far as i'm concerned, he's hiding the fact that he's nowhere near as wealthy as he claims to be.

[Tom Servo]

My main beef against trump isn’t tax returns, but conflict of interests.

My main beef isn't the things that might show us a problem, it's the problems that those things might show us.

[drew]

As far as i'm concerned, he's hiding the fact that he's nowhere near as wealthy as he claims to be.

That's my theory too, but, I also suspect he's got other shit to hide that is more legally relevant.

[mk]

What that other shit could be, gray/black money speculations?
Surely IRS would do its share.

[FaultyMario]

I think the whole "rapists/killers" rhetoric just cost Ted Cruz his seat. Maybe it's cost the GOP the Senate as well.

[FaultyMario]

What that other shit could be, gray/black money speculations?
Surely IRS would do its share.

It could be traceable laundered money. With all the Papers/Leaks we've had in the last couple of years, investigative journalist have a pretty clear picture of how monies come back to their commissioners.

[neanderthal]

So, ... another mass shooter who basically quoted Trump.

But Hillary was going to be worse!!!!

[21Kid]

Not arguing with you, but doesn't everyone, including Trump fans, know all that already?

His supporters don't seem to give a damn about all his faults, sins, and alleged crimes.


I don't know. A lot of supporters are tuned into right wing news media who either don't even report on the bad things, or try to sugar coat/gloss over the things he says and does.
Exactly. I heard a few reports from fox viewers who thought that the Mueller report was GOOD news for the president.

They didn't realize that it was damaging to the president because they never heard any of that on fox news.

They are very closed in their news loop. Fox News is literally the only news source they have.

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBNjut4XoAA1q2h.jpg

[Tom Servo]

Saw that he tweeted out doing some sort of gun reform but "marrying it" to new immigration restrictions.

I guess he has a point. There'll be fewer white supremacists killing immigrants if you just don't have any immigrants.

[Tom Servo]

Toledo, eh?

EDIT: Then I see that Joe Biden apparently referred to the shootings as "Houston today and Michigan the day before" at a fundraiser. Nothing shows the depth of your concern like having no idea where these things happen.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I thought Joe Biden cared more than Hillary... particularly for a democrat... how can you get these mass shooting locations wrong?

How can one expect these politicians to pass any sensible gun control laws? :smh:

Okay, guess I'll strike him out as one of my top 3. Will replace Joe with Cory as my new #3.

[FaultyMario]

Uruguay's Ministry of Foreign Relations warns (https://www.gub.uy/ministerio-relaciones-exteriores/comunicacion/noticias/9219-alerta-ciudadanos-uruguayos-viajen-estados-unidos) its citizens to exercise extreme caution if traveling to the U.S.

It cites 250 deaths from mass shootings in the previous 7 months.

[Phil_SS]

Saw that he tweeted out doing some sort of gun reform but "marrying it" to new immigration restrictions.

I guess he has a point. There'll be fewer white supremacists killing immigrants if you just don't have any immigrants.

If it was a way to get real gun legislation I would have to be for it. And I mean real gun legislation, like an amendment to the constitution. In fact, Donald Trump will get my vote in 2020 if he is able to get an amendment to the constitution that bans all assault weapons etc.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Doesn't sound like he will do that. He originally sounded like he's going to do something with gun legislation but later on he back tracked... to just mental health and video games.

At least he has somewhat denounced his own rhetoric, but without actually owning up to his rhetoric.

[drew]

Not only ban them from sale, but ban them from ownership, IE illegal to own. Because if they (ever) go that path and ban them from sale, they'll sell millions of them before the ban is finalized. There will be nothing to ban because they'd all have been bought.

Look at the "bump stock". Before Vegas, most people didn't know these things existed. After Vegas, the NRA suggested that maybe bump stocks should be banned. 3 days later they were sold out nation-wide. Then there was never a ban.

The NRA knows how to play the game. That's why they lobby to twats like McConnell for no changes. Mass shootings generate fear, which generates sales of guns to fuel the "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun".

When in reality, if you have had law enforcement/military type crisis training for shooter situations, you;ll likely: Shit your pants, die when you try to be a hero, piss yourself, hide/run like a normal human being reflex tells your muscles, all the above.

The whole "[name] has an A+ rating with the NRA", should mean precisely fuck all. But, on another angle, I'm glad they do have it, because it shows you how far up that person's ass they are pulling the strings. Meat puppet.

[Tom Servo]

No words.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiUDJMwdxBQ

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBdRC7OWkAAluQV.jpg

https://www.democracynow.org/images/headlines/33/48733/quarter_hd/h6-el-paso-trump-supporter-arrested-immigration-center-knife-loaded-gun-thomas-bartram.jpg

[dodint]

If it was a way to get real gun legislation I would have to be for it. And I mean real gun legislation, like an amendment to the constitution. In fact, Donald Trump will get my vote in 2020 if he is able to get an amendment to the constitution that bans all assault weapons etc.

Heller already allows for constitutionally permissive assault-weapon bans. SCOTUS found that we have a right to guns, but not every gun.