Politics

[FaultyMario]

None of us can get along without a community, without the help of others. That's why, the maximum punishment in Antiquity wasn't the death penalty, it was exile, to be without neighbors, without relatives; the whole makes livelihood and it makes sense.

Pepe Mujica.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well, there's a difference between things that are corroborated by evidence. It was a conspiracy by the Russians to try to interfere with our election and keep Hillary out of the White House. It's a conspiracy *theory* that Ukraine did it.

When it comes to Epstein's suicide, there's a defense lawyer that I follow reasonably closely and he points out that people commit suicide in jail all the time, including when they're under suicide watch. We have a for-profit prison system that doesn't give the slightest fuck about the people incarcerated there.

The other reason I'm hesitant to think there's a conspiracy with Epstein is have you seen the people who might be behind it try other conspiracies? I think the only reason this country isn't currently on fire is because the people trying to grift it are way dumber than they think they are.

I don’t particularly care to differentiate the difference between conspiracies vs conspiracy theories... without actual facts, what difference do they make?

Birth or existence of Jesus can be a giant conspiracy (theory) too.

Does believing in such things make you dumb or not believing in it makes you smarter?

I think the key is what you’d actually do with such beliefs.

[Tom Servo]

Well, I mean, that was the point. We use evidence to prove facts. That is the differentiation.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I guess my point was that it wasn’t really necessary to wait for facts about Russian meddling before we actually do something to prevent it, right?

Also, science absolutely needs scientific theories to make progress, likewise secretive conspiracies need theories too! Otherwise we’d never know about them! :p

I suppose the real annoying ones are the ones holding onto certain theories when facts have clearly proven them false. But in this day and age when people can’t even agree on the facts...

[drew]

Well, I mean, that was the point. We use evidence to prove facts. That is the differentiation.


Sadly, the world we live in now "facts" are subjective.

[neanderthal]

Sadly, the world we live in now "facts" are subjective.

Only to those who deny reality! At least, I hope that's the case.

[neanderthal]

Fuck you!

I still like Bernie

I somehow missed this.
Ultimately, Bernie Sanders true legacy will be poisoning an entire generation against the Democratic Party while convincing them that stalwart advocates, and lifelong Democrats, like Clinton, Pelosi, Cummings (rest in power) et al only care about corporations. Nevermind poisoning the healthcare conversation to one where a lot of his followers now advocate that anything less than Medicare For All is a sham and a failure (while millions are now being covered and thousands are being saved because the ACA expanded medicare coverage.) And i've already said how his purity politics with corporate fundraising has hampered our fight to gain electoral victories everywhere. It takes money to win political races.

Fuck Bernie Sanders!

I used to like him until I realised that his talking points lacked nuance, (has he said how he'd fund MFA yet?) and that his ideologies seemed far removed from those who would be most hurt by their implementation. Great on paper, but lacking in substance.

Much like his political career. He has big ideas but no/ limited actual implementation. (https://www.politico.com/story/2016/03/bernies-record-220508) Bills that have been enacted where he is the primary sponsor? Seven. Two of which were renaming Post Offices.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Before Mayor Pete, there was Mayor Bernie. He accidentally won that mayoral race because he energized a block of voters who never voted before in that city. The end result was that there was a bipartisan effort, yes, both republicans and democrats joined forces to obstruct the new mayor every step of the way... but Mayor Bernie came thru.

So one way to help Senator Bernie to be able to pass more bills in favor of the people in a corporate controlled congress is to make him fucking president. Any congressman wish to go against him, the new president will then deliver a speech in that district and rile up the working class so the congressman will either listen to the people or be replaced.

As for our healthcare, like our current healthcare system needs to be protected... I really can't understand how come you like such lousy status quo so much? How do we fund it? I dunno, the same way we fund the Afghan war for the past 18 years? We are loaded with money. If we run out, Fed could print more money. Why should the establishment be the only folks making all the money they're printing?

Just look at all the bills congress has passed over the past decades. How many bills were geared toward benefitting the corporations and how many were passed benefitting the people... and I think it's clear that our politicians have this bipartisan support for the mega corporations.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V--IKzZKCJY

So you say 'fuck bernie', I say 'fuck you' too!

[FaultyMario]

I used to like him until I realised that his talking points lacked nuance, (has he said how he'd fund MFA yet?) and that his ideologies seemed far removed from those who would be most hurt by their implementation. Great on paper, but lacking in substance.

Life (and politics) is more complicated than stereotypes. The exigencies of a presidential primary require leading politicians to differentiate themselves against each other, at times in somewhat arbitrary ways. (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/11/4/20946215/sanders-warren-medicare-payroll-tax)


Payroll taxes can assessed on employers or employees. In the case of Social Security, half the burden falls on employers and half on employees. Economists widely believe that it doesn’t actually matter who formally pays the tax, the result in either case is to reduce workers’ take-home pay. Sanders’s vision for financing Medicare-for-all includes raising employer-side payroll taxes by 7.5 percentage points in order to raise roughly $3.9 trillion over 10 years.

On average, this is less than what employers are currently spending on premium contributions for their employees, so workers and employers should generally come out ahead under this system. But those broad averages mask a wide range of impacts.

According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, the average employer contribution for a single person’s health insurance in 2016 was $5,946. Sanders’s employer-side payroll tax would be less than that for workers earning below $80,000 a year but higher for more affluent workers. For family coverage, the average employer contribution was $14,561 which would make the cutoff point about $194,000 in household income.


Warren’s plan, by contrast, asks companies with over 50 employees to simply calculate their current average expenditure on health insurance and pay 98 percent of that total to the government.

The virtues of this plan are twofold.

It guarantees that in the short term everyone is paying less in a clear and mechanical way.
Warren can say — technically — there is no new tax here. It’s a case of transforming the existing legal mandate for large employers to provide health insurance into a mandate to pay into a government-run fund.
Compared to Sanders’s plan, Warren’s plan is more favorable to the interests of high-income earners (the part that Sanders likes to emphasize) but also more favorable to Medicaid recipients (probably a framing she would prefer) since there’d be no extra tax on them.


Warren has much more of a reputation as the uber-wonk with plans for everything, while Sanders is seen more as a moralist and a populist who cares less about the technical merits of proposals than whether they illustrate underlying points.

In this particular case, however, that dynamic is reversed. It’s Warren whose plan optimizes for easily illustrating the point that almost everyone’s costs will go down, even at the cost of embracing a vision that’s not going to be technically sustainable for very long. She’s then vague about the timing of the transition off her plan, and is going to transition to something that’s probably a worse deal for many people than a more technocratic alternative would be.

Sanders, by contrast, is proposing a big new broad tax, even though big new broad taxes tend to be unpopular. This is how foreign single-payer systems are typically designed, and it’s almost certainly what a team of policy wonks would recommend if they were setting all political considerations aside.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Neanderthal, rather than fucking around with one another, I think it's probably worth the time to try to understand each other better. Just wondering why black voters prefer the moderate centrist pro-establishment candidates. Are these 5 reasons below valid? Or are there other reasons? You yourself have spelled out reason #2, so that author probably wasn't too far off?

1. Establishment candidates typically have existing ties to the black community
2. Black voters are pragmatic
3. Black leaders are part of the establishment and support its candidates
4. The liberal wing of the Democratic Party appeals to the well-educated more than other groups, and the vast majority of black Democrats don’t have college degrees
5. The left wing isn’t running enough black candidates

Source: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-do-black-democrats-usually-prefer-establishment-candidates/

Black voters really have the most to gain with the progressive agendas and they are mostly for these policies, but somehow they just refuse to support the progressive candidates. I personally just find it odd.

Of course, it is also kinda odd for somebody like me to support anti-establishment candidates. There are plenty of bathrooms for my gender to use. I don't have to worry about getting shot by the police because I never felt like my life doesn't matter. The establishment has also rewarded my employers well enough to keep me employed, and although I don't make a killing, but my wage has been steadily growing... and I do have decent health insurance. So I don't know what I'm complaining about I guess. :p

I should be supporting Biden or Hillary during 2016.

Even with election of Trump, the establishment is still firmly in control of our nation. Life should be good. I shouldn't complain.

I really don't know what is wrong with us?

[FaultyMario]

On that same train of thought, even with the election of Sanders the establishment will keep control of government. So why not aim for better?, in the worst case scenario you end up with same old.

[FaultyMario]

Just wondering why black voters prefer the moderate centrist pro-establishment candidates.


Notably, though, Sanders is the candidate who narrowly leads with nonwhite voters, 29% to 26%, over Biden. This might be because of Sanders' strength with younger voters of color and Latinos. But the margins of error with these subgroups are too high to draw any definitive conclusions.

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/15/788231791/npr-pbs-newshour-marist-poll-biden-sanders-lead-2020-democratic-race

3434

[Crazed_Insanity]

I believe it's the older black demographics who are loyal diehard supporters of the DNC.

Younger black folks do tend to be more supportive of the progressives.


On that same train of thought, even with the election of Sanders the establishment will keep control of government. So why not aim for better?, in the worst case scenario you end up with same old.
What do you mean by better? Or are you talking to Neanderthal?

[SportWagon]

Trudeau Trudeau, Cam.
In the days of Prime Minister Trudeau the First, there lots of jokes, many of which would probably these days be called "Dad jokes" based on the use of "Trudeau" to pun for "true though".

I remember as a grade-schooler a classmate saying, "Did you hear the rumour that Judy LaMarsh is pregant? But it isn't Trudeau..."

[sandydandy]

“True though” works as a good interpretation.

BTW watching the impeachment debate and am staggered at how all Republicans sound like complete dicks.

[George]

That's what they've become. Drew posted something about it earlier - he's not even their guy!

It's not like he's Bob Dole or George H.W. Bush or anyone like that who served in office as a Republican for decades and earned the respect of professional colleagues who would unite to defend him against political attacks from the other party. That, at least, people could understand, even if they disagreed with it.

One would think a body of moral and intelligent legislators set on doing the right thing for our country would run him out of town at the first legal opportunity, if only to make room for a competent replacement of the same party who wouldn't be a liability to their party and to the country.

They should be saying, "Let's get him out! He is making Republicans look bad!" instead of going to great lengths to support an outsider who is incompetent, belligerent, and a would-be tyrant.


He's not even a Republican for fuck's sake.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The question has come down to this... are 'attempted crimes' impeachable?

Clear it's fucked up to have a president who talked about how it's okay for him to grab girls by the pussies and mass shoot people on the street or pressure foreign leaders to do his will..., but are these impeachable offenses for a sitting president when you can't find the girls with their pussies grabbed nor the dead people on the street and Zelensky himself claiming that he wasn't pressured by Trump?

Who's the legal/constitutional expert here that can shed some light on this? Are these impeachable crimes?

Even if the answer is yes, when not a single republican senator is going to cross that line to impeach, what's the point of continuing with this circus?

I really fear Trump is going to get 'exonerated' and then reelected.

[George]

You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if this body determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role,” the politician said. Impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.

..

[FaultyMario]

"When he awoke, the North Korean long-range missile was still there." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Monterroso#Work)

[sandydandy]

This whole thing is kinda anticlimactic.

[FaultyMario]

I don't understand how any Republican can see Trump's impeachment as a defeat. They got what they wanted, keep the Clintons out of the WH and the Senate under their control. This man is a mess on foreign policy and has united the intelligence services against him. They throw him under the bus and they can signal atonement to purple districts, they let this mobster stay and they risk further extortion.

[Jason]

While it won’t mean much in the end, it was a day for the history books. I’m glad I got a chance to see the process unfold today, and over the last few weeks.

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://apple.news/AjUaJL_L0TTWit6dM2f_CZg

Tulsi casted a lone ‘present’ vote on impeaching Trump. I like her reasoning. Makes me think she’s the lone politician who still has some common sense left...

If there’s no Andrew Yang or Bernie Sanders, I’ll definitely vote for her in CA primary. Oh well, she still young. She has plenty of time later I suppose...

[Freude am Fahren]

:rolleyes:



Gabbard added that while she believes “Trump is guilty of wrongdoing,” she couldn’t vote “yes” because the process was partisan and “fueled by tribal animosities that have so gravely divided our country.”

[FaultyMario]

Girl, He's gone full Goebbels!!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMHwYmnU4AA8Cz-.jpg

[Tom Servo]

What's cool about Gabbard's stance is that no matter how horrible of a thing Trump does, as long as all the Republicans stay in lock step she can never vote for impeachment.

It's kinda like that one lawyer for the Republicans who testified during the hearings. He said he didn't want to see an impeachment that came from anger. That's a nice precedent, because it means you can't have an impeachment unless you're totally cool with the President doing something impeachable. Like, if the president just basically started openly taking orders from Kim Jong Un, you can't be angry about that or else your impeachment is invalid.

"Why, you can't convict this man of killing your wife! You're clearly just trying to do it because you're angry at him!"

[Crazed_Insanity]

I saw it as if she voted yes, she’d anger the red folks. No vote means she’s anger blue folks.

Present vote basically means fuck you all as if she voted for Jill Stein! ;)

Anyway, in all seriousness, politics aside, I think you can’t really convict trump for grabbing Zelensky’s pussy if Zelensky said so himself that he didn’t feel any pressure applied to his pussy from trumps little hands, right?

Yeah, I know whistleblower saw the pussy grab, but who should we believe? The victim himself or whistleblower?

[drew]

I hope every one of those pricks gets voted out if up for election in November.

The whole "GOP working with the president's legal team, we are not impartial" bullshit makes me violently sick to my ass.

"Hey, you got accused of [whatever], please pick your jurors, and you don't have to feel obligated to have any witnesses (even for your defense) or provide even a post-it of documentary defense"

"we got this"

[Tom Servo]

From a regular Fox News contributor that dear leader likes retweeting on a regular basis:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMGOYHYXkAAL-mc?format=jpg&name=900x900

Maybe one of the weirdest things about this timeline, to me, is this persistent myth amongst the far right that liberals hate hearing "Merry Christmas".

[neanderthal]

Respond with "merry impeachmas."

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, even if all liberals were atheists, I’m sure baby Jesus would approve using his birthday as means to piss people off. Sigh...

If Jesus were a member of Congress, pretty sure he’d vote present too, just as he didn’t cast the stone at the adulterous woman..., but surely Jesus would be much wiser than Tulsi and be able to somehow use the occasion to help make Trump to sin no more? But anyway, that’s fantasy talk... ;)

[Tom Servo]

FWIW, I don't personally know any atheists who get upset at "Merry Christmas", myself included.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Other than the impeachment, I think this video clip summed up pretty much all the reasons why the corporate centrist democrats are driving me mad...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdF_Pl23zO0

[Crazed_Insanity]

FWIW, I don't personally know any atheists who get upset at "Merry Christmas", myself included.

Anyway, it's too bad such greetings need to be politicized... and certainly Trump didn't help the cause. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/12/merry-christmas-vs-happy-holidays-round-2016/511115/

People also need to try to understand that during this holiday season, we really should try to think of others more rather than self. If this person celebrates Xmas, tell him so. If he's Jewish, than tell him happy hanukkah... or if you don't know that person's religion, just a simple happy holidays. And if somebody accidentally messed it up for you... or improperly addressed you with the wrong personal pronoun, try not to take too much offense... just have pity on such fool and wish him an happy whatever day. Why so serious? Cheers! :)

[IMOA]

While I'm not christian culturally in Australia we celebrate christmas so I tend to wish people a merry christmas. No-one gets upset. Likewise, if someone is uncomfortable saying merry christmas and wishes me happy holidays I accept the greeting as it's intended. I don't get upset.

I figure that if someone gets upset with the form of well wishing you are giving them then they're desperate to be upset by something so will get wound up about something soon so you might as well cut to the chase and get them annoyed quickly.

[Tom Servo]

Same here. I also don't mind if someone wishes me a Happy Chanukah or Kwanzaa. Or winter solstice. Or a nice day.

[George]

Ooh, that reminds me - Monday the 23rd is Festivus! :up:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Same here. I also don't mind if someone wishes me a Happy Chanukah or Kwanzaa. Or winter solstice. Or a nice day.

But you have to admit that there are liberal folks who'd get offended if you refer to them in the wrong gender pronoun, right? Offended to see the 10 commandments or a cross on public land... offended to see Biden holding the hand or kissing other people's wives... so is it that surprising to you that some liberals might find 'Merry Christmas' offensive? Is it really made up by the republicans? It's good that most people don't get upset over this, but you do realize there are liberals not quite like you, right?

Are there conservatives who are that anal about speech? They're so liberal with regard to political correctness that they don't even mind their president brag about grabbing women by their pussies!

GOP really should be renamed liberals and DNC are the conservatives when it comes to speech! :D

Say the wrong thing when you're a baby, then YOU'RE FIRED if you're blue! If you're red, then you can say whatever dumb offensive shit you want and win public offices! The right certainly has a lot more problems, but you gotta admit that the left has problems too. Just because you personally don't do it and nobody you know does it doesn't make this political problem go away.

With regard to these kind of topics, I have no problem being a centrist. We really need to come together more on this.

Anyway, happy Xmas and merry new year everyone! :)

[Fiat500]

Respond with "merry impeachmas."

Treason's Greetings.

[Rare White Ape]

“Merry Christmas” is not offensive. To anyone.

It’s just not fully inclusive. That’s all.

There’s a big difference here, and it is where 99% of the “ThEy’Re GoInG tO bAn ChRiStMaS” crowd miss the point.

[21Kid]

I don't understand how any Republican can see Trump's impeachment as a defeat. They got what they wanted, keep the Clintons out of the WH and the Senate under their control. This man is a mess on foreign policy and has united the intelligence services against him. They throw him under the bus and they can signal atonement to purple districts, they let this mobster stay and they risk further extortion.

That's what I was thinking too. But, they aren't that brave.

Our system is broken. It's pretty obvious that this two party system is no longer sustainable.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Pertaining Sr. Mario’s point, if Trump kept his promise to drain the establishment swamp, pretty sure he would’ve been thrown under the bus somehow prior to this impeachment.

Extortion from Trump trumps extortion from democrats.

Both parties place the interests of the nation below the party. Both major parties actually only submit to the ‘establishment’. Financial crisis proved this point. Republicans could submit to the socialist idea of bailing out banks and Democrats could submit to the idea of prioritizing giving welfare to the rich banks 1st.

Both modern day impeachments had been political BS. Is a stained dress or withholding aid to Ukraine a matter of national security? Matter of Life and death for the average Americans?

Real evil offenses worthy of impeachment cannot really happen because these evils will usually implicate both parties and hurt the ‘establishment’. No way they’ll ever do that.

Before we stop Russians from meddling with our elections, we need to 1st stop our own rich and powerful from meddling with our elections!

Those loyal Biden supporters, I urge you to open up your eyes!!!

[FaultyMario]

Will Christianity Today's editorial (https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/december-web-only/trump-should-be-removed-from-office.html) have any impact?


Trump’s evangelical supporters have pointed to his Supreme Court nominees, his defense of religious liberty, and his stewardship of the economy, among other things, as achievements that justify their support of the president. We believe the impeachment hearings have made it absolutely clear, in a way the Mueller investigation did not, that President Trump has abused his authority for personal gain and betrayed his constitutional oath. The impeachment hearings have illuminated the president’s moral deficiencies for all to see. This damages the institution of the presidency, damages the reputation of our country, and damages both the spirit and the future of our people. None of the president’s positives can balance the moral and political danger we face under a leader of such grossly immoral character.

[Tom Servo]

But you have to admit that there are liberal folks who'd get offended if you refer to them in the wrong gender pronoun, right?

I'm just going to run with this one because I think this is a microcosm of this whole thing. A coworker of mine came out as trans at our company holiday party. He was Jake, but that night she came as Jolie dressed to the nines, so much so that I didn't recognize her at first.

She made it clear that she preferred that we refer to her as she. I slipped up a *bunch* of times, I still do. She knows that I'm not doing it out of malice and has never been upset about it.

The trans people I see who get mad about people referring to them by the wrong gender pronoun get mad because the person doing so does it out of malice. The whole "I don't give a shit what you want to be called, you're a 'he' and you always will be." crowd.

I don't know what it's like to be trans. The few people I know who are clearly felt very, very strongly about it, and came out in ways that could have ruined their relationships with their families and careers. These aren't people who are just trying to sneak into the other gender's bathroom. But there's a whole crowd that thinks that, and *that's* who liberals are offended by. I think it ultimately comes down to being offended by not only people unwilling to at least attempt to put themselves in the shoes of others, but actively fighting it to the point where they discount other people's experiences.

So, naah, I don't think I have to admit there are liberal folks who get offended if you refer to them in the wrong gender pronoun. I think there are a lot of liberal folks who will get offended if you continue to do so after being expressly asked not to solely to pick a fight.

EDIT: If it means anything, I expressly singled out the "far right", like our friend Dan Bongino here, about the Christmas thing. I know a lot of conservatives and have wished them Merry Christmas back with absolutely no drama.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ok, I really don’t mean to pick a fight. What you said certainly makes a lot of sense and I completely agree..., for normal human beings.

But considering today’s political climate, you HAVE to admit that both far right AND far left are not normal, right?

I don’t have anything personal against you, but I do have something against mainstream centrist democrats inabilities to see their own problems. Like all problems are caused by the other side. If EU is so wonderful, why Brexit? If Obama was so great, why would anyone pick Trump?

Of course we have the same problems on the other side too. Com’on, was Obama really that evil? Evangelicals really couldn’t tell trump has serious moral deficiencies before 2016 that we need Christianity Today’s editor to tell the evangelicals that AFTER the impeachment?

Each side willingly ignores their own problems and magnified problems on the other side... That’s what I found annoying. Seriously, didn’t mean to pick a fight with you. Just wanted to point out that every stupid far right action most likely didn’t just come out of nowhere if Newton’s 3rd Law is to be observed.

[Yw-slayer]

I dunno man, I really dislike being wished Merry Christmas. I accept it because it's be really rude not to, but I always try and say Happy Festive Season. Because why shouldn't I go around wishing people Happy Wesak Day?

[Cam]

I guess I am a lefty atheist. I do not go around telling everyone about it. Asking people not to include me in Christmas celebrations or wishes is more hassle than it is worth, so I just put up with it. I do not think it is rude, but I just do not want to have to explain myself. I am a forthright person, which is often misunderstood as me being an asshole. It bothers me more when people say, "Bless you." after I sneeze. :lol:

[tigeraid]

I am a forthright person, which is often misunderstood as me being an asshole. It bothers me more when people say, "Bless you." after I sneeze. :lol:

My life in a nutshell.

[drew]

I think this is fucking fantastic:
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/december-web-only/trump-should-be-removed-from-office.html

[Yw-slayer]

I guess I am a lefty atheist. I do not go around telling everyone about it. Asking people not to include me in Christmas celebrations or wishes is more hassle than it is worth, so I just put up with it. I do not think it is rude, but I just do not want to have to explain myself. I am a forthright person, which is often misunderstood as me being an asshole. It bothers me more when people say, "Bless you." after I sneeze. :lol:

Similar, but I'm not atheist. The Bless You part I just accept as politeness, I've managed to dissociate it from Santa and Jesus and all that rubbish.

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, I basically disassociate it too. Kinda like if I say "Goddammit", it's a turn of phrase, I'm not actually asking a god to damn something.

[George]

It bothers me more when people say, "Bless you." after I sneeze. :lol:

That bothers me just from the sheer futility of it - in an office environment, anyway. Why do some people feel compelled to say something every time someone sneezes? I could see it if it's Great Aunt Myrtle visiting for Christmas or something, but among people who work together all day long, why is this necessary?

First world problems.

[George]

Will Christianity Today's editorial (https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/december-web-only/trump-should-be-removed-from-office.html) have any impact?

Probably not, but I strongly agree with their statement.

Edited to add: And even more so now that I've read the entire article and not just the quote posted here.

[Yw-slayer]

I guess instead of "Bless You", one coils say "Stay safe/Take care bro". But I just treat it as a meaningless yet polite gesture.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yep, every time a typical US politicians gave a speech, he/she probably caused America to sneeze, that's why they had to end their speeches with God bless America!

Hope America will recover from her cold soon... or at least be less allergic to these hypocritical politicians...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, I basically disassociate it too. Kinda like if I say "Goddammit", it's a turn of phrase, I'm not actually asking a god to damn something.

JESUS CHRIST! (loves you)

I meant every word I typed! :p

Anyway, so did the debate change any minds?

Without any REAL minorities to challenge the white old men and Andrew Yang being such a nice guy, I thought Biden has done quite well.

[George]

Anyway, so did the debate change any minds?

My wife had the debate on last night and, as with previous debates, every time I walk by and Tom Steyer is speaking, I tend to stop and agree with what he's saying.

Not a big deal to me, but it's interesting that his tax returns are posted on his website for anyone to see.

https://www.tomsteyer.com/transparency/

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes, they really need to ensure future presidential candidates or other public office holders be able to release his tax returns. Also ensuring there are no other conflict of interest issues before swearing anyone into public office.

If you wish to remain private about these matters, then just don't run for public office! We absolutely need transparency.

Anyway, I think the main loser last night was just Mayor Pete. It's also very interesting that CA governor chimed in and defended such wine cave fundraisers... https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/475454-california-gov-newsom-defends-wine-caves-after-debate-mention

How out of touch these corporate democrats still are... Yes, to the pragmatists, we need money to defeat Trump, but not that kind of money.

[FaultyMario]

I guess instead of "Bless You", one coils say "Stay safe/Take care bro". But I just treat it as a meaningless yet polite gesture.

¡Salud!

[George]

Or my favorite:

*sneeze*

Bless you.

*another sneeze*

With mock anger: I said bless you! :angry:

[FaultyMario]

My wife had the debate on last night and, as with previous debates, every time I walk by and Tom Steyer is speaking, I tend to stop and agree with what he's saying.

Not a big deal to me, but it's interesting that his tax returns are posted on his website for anyone to see.

https://www.tomsteyer.com/transparency/

I heard someone criticize Buttigieg for running the same campaign as Obama in 07. It worked well then, but after Trump, a message of hope is not enough to move voters.

I think that's basically the problem with Steyer, back in 2000 it would've killed Dubya but the voters who want to get rid of Trump are asking for a different message.

[Tom Servo]

Hey Billi - I'm not sure if you're still on the Bernie train or have completely moved onto Yang, but just in case he's holding a rally along with AOC at Windward circle in Venice tomorrow at noon. Parking's always a nightmare down there, but might make sense to take the train and then either walk or get a bikeshare bike for the rest of the trip.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I’ll stay on the Yang train for as long as possible. If I must transfer, of course Bernie is still my top choice!

Thanks for letting me know, but I’m not really the rallying type, I didn’t even bother attending an Andrew Yang event downtown last time. I’ll give them money, don’t need to listen to their same speeches over and over... :p

I think YouTube has really made attending these rallies unnecessary for myself. However if you need me to bring you to an Andrew event, let me know! ;)

[Tom Servo]

Word, just wanted to make sure you knew about it. I'm also not the rally type, so I'll likely pass on the Yang offer, but I do appreciate it!

[Yw-slayer]

Or my favorite:

*sneeze*

Bless you.

*another sneeze*

With mock anger: I said bless you! :angry:

I saw an article whining about how Notre Dame was missing Christmas for the first time since whatever date blah blah blah.

I immediately started singing "Burn, baby, burn, Disco Inferno!!!!"

[drew]

I heard someone criticize Buttigieg for running the same campaign as Obama in 07. It worked well then, but after Trump, a message of hope is not enough to move voters.

I think that's basically the problem with Steyer, back in 2000 it would've killed Dubya but the voters who want to get rid of Trump are asking for a different message.

Trump is not changing his "platform" at all, so why not use something that "works"?

[FaultyMario]

Because it didn't, even if Hillary won the popular vote he still american'd his way in.

Imagine now that he's spent 3 years on campaign, non stop. He's got the donations and he's proven he doesn't give a flying fuck about selling embassies or secretariats to a Gordon Sondland or a Betsy DeVos.

[FaultyMario]

This is how the administration of Piñera, Chile's media and airline billionaire President, handles civic mobilization (https://twitter.com/Danielveloz/status/1208324916858302466?s=20). Just so you know. Warning, gruesome video.

[drew]

Oh, I agree. It also pisses me off that I am paying for his rallies and golf outings.

That's all he wanted out of this, to be jetted around the country/world to give rallies and get rah rahs from his "base".

I wonder if anyone has done a photo comparison with the people behind him at any given rally, and saw how many were at multiple rallies. I have a big suspicion, the people in the back are on payroll.

He's a fucking cunt.

[Cam]

I immediately started singing "Burn, baby, burn, Disco Inferno!!!!"
:lol: Something I would do. Did you do some disco moves as you sang it?

[Yw-slayer]

I was at the dining table, so sadly, no.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just saw this on youtube. Interesting... maybe Yang has a pretty good shot with the Iowans.
Its also interesting that none of them liked Yang because of UBI or freedom dividend!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oAMa6bEi_0

Anyway, if these folks are really representative of the state of Iowa, the race is really wide open.

[FaultyMario]

Happy holidays, you libtards!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Trump is beating every dem except Biden in Florida and Virginia!!! The impeachment trial will probably drag the Biden’s thru the mud enough and allow for a thorough and complete Trump victory.

Nobody polled Andrew Yang tho...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/12/31/election-2020-poll-says-trump-beats-every-dem-but-biden-florida-virginia/2782320001/

Anyway, not going to have a very happy new year if this trend continues...

[Tom Servo]

Julian Castro has dropped out. Not stoked that two people I liked are gone but somehow Bloomberg is still floating around.

[neanderthal]

Julian Castro has dropped out. Not stoked that two people I liked are gone but somehow Bloomberg is still floating around.

And Chang. And Steyer. And the Russian asset Gabbard.

Fuck Bernie! Fuck his purity politics.

[Tom Servo]

Apparently we just drone-strike-assassinated the top general in Iran. I don't see what could possibly go wrong.

[Crazed_Insanity]

And Chang. And Steyer. And the Russian asset Gabbard.

Fuck Bernie! Fuck his purity politics.

There’s no Chang dude!

Asian names matters too you know?

[MR2 Fan]

Terror attacks are about to go way up :(

[FaultyMario]

Terror attacks are about to go way up :(

Welcome to our CIA-manipulated reality!

[drew]

The ONLY thing I feared with Trump, was getting (read: bumbling stupidly into a way, having no clue how the world works and being the most inept "president" the country's ever seen) into a war.

That may now be happening. It's the ultimate distraction from the impeachment. I was guessing it'd either be something with Iran, or DPRK. Hell, it may end up being both at this point...

As soon as the cruise missiles start flying, I'll put $100 on Israel "joining in", because this is their wet dream.


Fuck Trump.

[The359]

And it sounds like they've chosen Iraq as the battleground, so there goes all of that effort.

[tigeraid]

http://scontent.fykz1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/81034595_167777297930611_3614754448951214080_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ohc=KUwaA5lKlTwAQlKLQxR5fc1QmhBKEcwZ_tfznL-6xYeaZDDimq0TRZmRw&_nc_ht=scontent.fykz1-2.fna&oh=b30d8d3df7cbdd01096a7b21706bc0ac&oe=5E9FDD7F

[21Kid]

Yup.
3443

[drew]

All by design.

He's an absolute moron.

[The359]

The justification will likely be that "since Obama was allowed to do it, so can I."

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ok guys, Iranians scratched our embassy's back so Trump decided to scratch the back of one of its generals. It's simple quid pro quo.

If it were Trump who orchestrated the embassy attack and framed it on the Iranians, then that would be fucked up and truly impeachable.

Anyway, if we do get another freaking war, I guess it'll render candidates like Bernie or Yang irrelevant...

To be honest, I kinda like to have Trump as president during war time. Trump is basically our "Kim Jong-un", if you get crazy against the US, rest assure US will be crazier than you during Trump's term. You sure you want to mess with the US when Trump is still in charge? Unless your nation has a Trump hotel, otherwise, pretty sure you'll be fucked.

Hope Iranians are smarter than this. Please don't fuck with a crazy US president and help him win reelection.

[drew]

The justification will likely be that "since Obama was allowed to do it, so can I."



Oh, no. it's his sycophants coming to the mic to his aid and saying "it was a preemptive attack to stop a major plot against us."

Add to that, Lyndsey "Sell Out Graham", preemptively stating that the president consulted him prior to ordering the strike, when no other person has come forward, and Congress already condemned him for going rogue (unilateral) without their consent, or even counsel. They're retro-actively using the Bush "Patriot Act", and yet, not adding any detail as to what this "major plot" was.

Pompeo was genuinely speechless when CNN asked about the plot: "[about 8 seconds of silence] I can't give those details"

Nice save, cunt.


Fuck every one of these assholes.

[dodint]

You folks have had the outrage pegged at 11 for thirty-eight months straight so it's kind of tough to contextualize the significance of this.

Is this better or worse than his habitual second helping of ice cream?


I think it's to distract us from the decision to ban flavored vaping.

[Jason]

I don't have any love lost for Iran (or at least it's current government), but I still don't want to get involved in yet another armed conflict.

That being said, what Trump did isn't much different than Obama's moves post Bush wars. The timing of this is a bit convenient considering the increased detail that's come out about Ukraine payments, no clue if it's planned or not, or simply retaliation for their actions in Iraq. But again, either way, I don't want to be involved in more armed conflict, and this will only escalate things.

[Tom Servo]

You folks have had the outrage pegged at 11 for thirty-eight months straight so it's kind of tough to contextualize the significance of this.

Is this better or worse than his habitual second helping of ice cream?


I think it's to distract us from the decision to ban flavored vaping.

A brilliant point brilliantly made.

I mean, I don't know what it is, but I'm sure that's what just happened here.

[dodint]

It's performance art. Same as drew.

[Tom Servo]

Well, they say practice makes perfect, so keep at it then.

[drew]

:up:

[neanderthal]

Hillary was going to be worse you guys. :rolleyes


Fuck Bernie and his acolytes.
Fuck Trump and the trumpanzees with a rusty running chainsaw.

[FaultyMario]

What about Pence? No fucks for him? I mean, He just addressed the world trying to convince us that 9-11 was masterminded by the Iranians, even though 15 of those who carried it out came from a country that's hostile to Iran.

[Tom Servo]

What about Pence? No fucks for him? I mean, He just addressed the world trying to convince us that 9-11 was masterminded by the Iranians, even though 15 of those who carried it out came from a country that's hostile to Iran.

Just now seeing that - between that and the news pundits claiming that the Iranian people are actually super happy we did this and we just "gave them freedom" reminds me a whole lot of being told we'd be greeted as liberators in Iraq.

[drew]

.and an "ally" of the US.

Pence is a different kind of nightmare. Crazy ideologies, but the actual intellect to pull it off, as opposed to having people whisper things into his head, and act them out because "I'M THE SUPREME RULER". In a way, Pence is scarier, but on a domestic front. Trump is a fucking tragedy on a global scale.

Fairly certain the US would be just as backwards, in regard to rights/etc, under Pence, but, we wouldn't be the laughing stock of the rest of the world in regard to foreign relations with them as we are now, because the guy we do have is completely inept and incompetent at quite literally, everything.

[FaultyMario]

Hillary was going to be worse you guys. :rolleyes


Fuck Bernie and his acolytes.
Fuck Trump and the trumpanzees with a rusty running chainsaw.

Just drop it Mo. America doesn't want the Sugar-Free Republican the Democratic Party has been trying to sell her.

It's either a candidate that can represent a minimum of two of the following (2A + ProLife + Fuckyeah) or a progressive1 that can isolate the middle class imaginary from the threats of the real world. And I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but that candidate right now is Sanders. Mr. Trump has grabbed the 3 key ideological points and turned them up to 11. Nobody can touch him either of those, he's a conman, he knows that's what's won key districts. Add the nuanced racism, the rural-appealing grab-em-by-the-macho bravado, the classist demagoguery and there's no space on the conservative political spectrum for a World Police candidate (Hillary) or a I'm-gun-reach-across-the-aisle dude (Biden).


1 As progressive as the American middle class will allow, and since that is an everchanging proposition, clever politicians will read the changes and make proposals that fit that narrative. From the New Frontier of Opportunities of Jack to the Kum Ba Yah Unity of Barry.

[neanderthal]

Sanders will NEVER be president, much less the nominee.
You gotta win women and African Americans to get the Democratic nomination. He doesn't have those two groups.

And, he can't help anybody down ballot.

[Cam]

I only come to this thread to read Tom Servo’s posts. :lol::up:

[Godson]

Currently drinking away my worries about WW3.


IT'S BEEN FUN YOU FUCKERS!

[FaultyMario]

Sanders will NEVER be president, much less the nominee.

YEAH, I KNOW!

[Crazed_Insanity]

How can you be so sure about that?

Democratic Q4 announcements:

Bernie Sanders: $34.5 million
Pete Buttigieg: $24.7 million
Joe Biden: $22.7 million
Elizabeth Warren: $21.2 million
Andrew Yang: $16.5 million
Amy Klobuchar: $11.4 million
Cory Booker: $6.6 million
Tulsi Gabbard: $3.4 million

Republican Q4 announcements:

1. President Trump: $46 million

https://www.axios.com/2020-presidential-candidates-q4-fundraising-2dc39024-b8bd-4de2-865d-a11e10d95225.html

[FaultyMario]

Ok, who is this Ben Sasse guy and is he really thinking bout bombing my ass? I'm mean, Tucker Carlson sounded so convincing here (Skip to 1:24).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRPF9vnohYk

[Rikadyn]

We might want our lithium they found in Mexico

[FaultyMario]

Yeah, but that's in Sonora. Why bomb me?

[Rikadyn]

You think they know the difference?

[FaultyMario]

Good point.

[Rikadyn]

Now flood this country with drugs and send me some Salvia divinorum 👀

[FaultyMario]

I've heard of that one, under the brand name santita, but the people I've asked (southern part, towards the Pacific) know of no healer using it. It sounds like it might be used in the Mazatec region. Patients say it allows you to talk to the departed, it's fucking strong.

[Rikadyn]

I know, it's a pain to get around here now though after kids were filming themselves doing it and putting it on YouTube.

I am wishing I had bought plants when I could

[neanderthal]

How can you be so sure about that?

Democratic Q4 announcements:

Bernie Sanders: $34.5 million
Pete Buttigieg: $24.7 million
Joe Biden: $22.7 million
Elizabeth Warren: $21.2 million
Andrew Yang: $16.5 million
Amy Klobuchar: $11.4 million
Cory Booker: $6.6 million
Tulsi Gabbard: $3.4 million

Republican Q4 announcements:

1. President Trump: $46 million

https://www.axios.com/2020-presidential-candidates-q4-fundraising-2dc39024-b8bd-4de2-865d-a11e10d95225.html

Are ... you ... saying ... it ... takes ...<checks notes> money :eek: to win elections? Because that would negate about 80% of your political posts in the last five years

[neanderthal]

What about Pence? No fucks for him? I mean, He just addressed the world trying to convince us that 9-11 was masterminded by the Iranians, even though 15 of those who carried it out came from a country that's hostile to Iran.

Pence is just as culpable as Trump. Pence was in charge of the campaign (i don't recall the specifics) and there were shenanigans during the campaign, even before the election, that should have disqualified Trump/ Pence.

As for his lies, he could tell me my actual name and i'd want to look at my birth certificate to confirm. I trust a Republican as much as I trust a snake.

[neanderthal]

Our freedumbs been "saved" by the assassination of the Iranian dude. :facepalm "He needed to go..." Does that mean Iran should have license to kill Americans who profess to be negatively predisposed to Iran? No? Why not? How is it different? Make it make sense.

And by the way, I want to see all those "freedom loving" patriots signing up to go there now. We'll wait. Where's Tomi Lauren when the country needs her services. (No, not sucking dicks. And no, not saying stupid things to/ on the media.)

----

Then, of course the Berners were protesting outside Schumer's New York residence. :doublefacepalm

Anyone notice how the Berners seem to always blame Democrats for what republicans do?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Are ... you ... saying ... it ... takes ...<checks notes> money :eek: to win elections? Because that would negate about 80% of your political posts in the last five years

I don’t recall denying politicians’ need money to run campaigns.

My problem is that typical politicians got their money from the rich, therefore, politicians mostly only listen to rich people, passing laws favoring the rich. Leaving poor people behind. Even in liberal states like CA, we have more than our fair share of homeless folks.

Status quo is obviously not working.

Give the antiestablishment candidates a chance dude!

[Crazed_Insanity]

----

Then, of course the Berners were protesting outside Schumer's New York residence. :doublefacepalm

Anyone notice how the Berners seem to always blame Democrats for what republicans do?

I think you misunderstood Berner’s intentions. They’re not protesting Schumer for Trumps attack, but protesting against stupid establishment dems for impeaching Trump on the one hand... and then approving Trumps funding and giving an asshole president more powers on another.

https://bklyner.com/senator-schumer-is-a-coward-hundreds-protest-outside-the-ny-senators-home/

[neanderthal]

I don’t recall denying politicians’ need money to run campaigns.

My problem is that typical politicians got their money from the rich, therefore, politicians mostly only listen to rich people, passing laws favoring the rich. Leaving poor people behind. Even in liberal states like CA, we have more than our fair share of homeless folks.

Status quo is obviously not working.

Give the antiestablishment candidates a chance dude!

So, ... <checks notes> you want to only get money from the poors, who DON'T have real disposable income (money in standard parlance!) to give to politicians. To me it's pretty obvious how this is a losing situation.

Perhaps you might want to apply some brain cells to this word problem. If the 40 richest people in the US have more wealth then the 150 million people who are in the bottom 50% economically, and don't have 99% disposable income like the billionaires, but instead, say, (and lets be generous here) 30% disposable income, how many of those billionaires will it take to overcome the political will of those masses?


There's no time limit.

But, i'm impatient, so i'll give you the answer. 1. In the real world, it only takes a determined one of those 40 richest people to overcome the financial backing of the 50% of the population that is the poors. We, the poors, do not have 30% disposable income. The 49th percentile might, but i betcha there's considerably more poors with zero to 2% of disposable income to give to politicians. And that's if they don't spend that disposable income on buying Jordans for their kids first.

The billionaire doesn't need 99% of the money they earn; they already have a large house (if not several) a nice car (if not several) a luxury yacht (if not several) a plane (if not several) money at the local bank (if not in several banks,) never mind investments, properties, businesses, foundations, charities and trusts, art, jewelry, collector cars, foreign currency accounts in the Bahamas, Switzerland, the Caymans, Lichtenstein, Monaco, and other places rich people hide their money, etc etc etc.

[neanderthal]

I think you misunderstood Berner’s intentions. They’re not protesting Schumer for Trumps attack, but protesting against stupid establishment dems for impeaching Trump on the one hand... and then approving Trumps funding and giving an asshole president more powers on another.

https://bklyner.com/senator-schumer-is-a-coward-hundreds-protest-outside-the-ny-senators-home/

Oh. So they wanted to have the Democrats not include funding for government activities (no matter how despicable) which would have probably/ possibly led to a government shut down, which always affects the poors more than anybody else.

Do you see why I say fuck Bernie and his acolytes? In the real world their political purity comes at a cost, and they don't care because it doesn't affect them the most.

Their little protest at Schumers house wouldn't do anything to avert or change the situation at the border, and then it would fuck over the most helpless a the same time. Great job Berners!

Which do you prefer? That they shut down the government by not agreeing to fund this and have a Pyrrhic victory, or they drastically affect the poors. In an election year. Pick one. It's a binary choice, pick one.

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2020/1/3/21048098/iran-qassem-soleimani-ndaa-2019-vote-ro-khanna-aumf

I just saw this article. I guess I have to concede. Yes, the only pragmatic choice is for dems to give a president, that they want to remove because of his character flaws, a blank check to start whatever war he wants.

Progressives can just stop whining to Schumer and liberals can stop whining to the WH. Let’s just accept this as what it is. We have no other choice.

Let’s face it, Dems are no match to republicans⋯⋯ and republicans are no match to Trump. We all can just bend over and allow him to grab our pussies while trying our best to impeach him...

Just out of curiosity, who’s your favorite candidate now? Must be Biden now, right? I could fall in line for him I guess if he’s the nominee, but I’m willing to bet after 4 years(he’s saying he won’t run for re-election right?), we might end up with somebody far worse than trump...

[Rikadyn]

https://i.imgur.com/qgtiUUC.jpg

[MR2 Fan]

pretty inaccurate. There's dozens of bills that the House passed but Moscow Mitch won't even allow the Senate to vote on

[Crazed_Insanity]

Inaccurate? I thought rikadyns cartoon is right on!

Of course if we switch out dem hand to trumps hand, he’d be shaking those drowning hands and thank them for MAGA and then let go and let them continue to drown.

[Jason]

Hillary was going to be worse you guys. :rolleyes


Fuck Bernie and his acolytes.
Fuck Trump and the trumpanzees with a rusty running chainsaw.

You keep putting this on Sanders and company, but roughly the same percent of Sanders primary voters voted for Clinton, as other primary battles in years past. Don't like extremists, and foreign assets do this to you, man.

[Jason]

*let

(Can't edit posts on mobile for some reason)

Also MR2 is right here. Democrats, on a federal level, can only do so much. They can pass the most awesome bills in the world, but Republicans will just stop them, and have, in the Senate. Impeaching Trump is a separate matter, and doesn't take away from them putting bills on the table that will help the American public.


Back to progressives vs moderates. I really wish there was less vitriol. But I feel like a lot of it is sourced from questionable beginnings with the intention of causing division and weakness among the Democratic party. I, and many other progressives, wanted Sanders last time, and Warren or Sanders this time, but gladly voted for Clinton, and will line up to vote for Biden or Buttigieg.

[Jason]

One piece of this that’s important to keep in context is that you always see this kind of defection between a primary and a general election. In 2008, you saw a lot of Hillary Clinton voters who ended up backing John McCain — so it's not abnormal to see this kind of thing. And more of them did so in 2008 than this time. [15 percent of Clinton’s 2008 voters in the primary supported McCain in that year’s general election.] Although given the candidates this time versus in 2008, it may have been surprising to see even this rate of defection.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/24/16194086/bernie-trump-voters-study

This is one of many articles about it. Basically a primary loser's supporters, sometimes end up voting for the other party's candidates. And that includes open primaries I think.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Interesting analysis. But I think vox has only given people like Neanderthal more reasons to hate berners.

The only reason trump won is because of 3rd party voters like me and stupid berners.

[neanderthal]

You keep putting this on Sanders and company, but roughly the same percent of Sanders primary voters voted for Clinton, as other primary battles in years past. Don't like extremists, and foreign assets do this to you, man.

Hold on. Right below my "fuck Bernie and his acolytes" is a far more stinging fuck Trump and the Trumpanzees. My scorn of Trump voters is loud and often.

My discord with the Bernie faction is because of their misdirected outrage. You'll see far more criticism of Democrats from the Bernie wing, and often misplaced blame.

Case in point, bills have been passed in Congress that the Senate hasn't bothered to take up for a vote. The inaction of the Senate is labelled as inaction of the Democrats in charge Congress.
And here we have Billi blaming Democrats for funding the government. If the government shuts down the most affected people are the poor. They lose access to services, funds, programs that help them get by. Low wage workers working for contractors with contracts to do things like clean government offices, etc, now don't have work. So no paycheck.

but Billi and co don't care.

I just asked him would he rather the poor are affected by a government shut down or the government is funded and he decided purity of cause is more important. Mind you, Bernies entire shtick is about the poor and working class being cheated by a system that rewards the wealthy. Now, he's right about that, but, if his, and their, concern was indeed the poor, then you'd expect them to actually consider the poor in this situation. Nope! Purity politics wins out.

This is why I beef with the hard left; they're closer to Trumps acolytes than they are to people who truly care for the poor.

[neanderthal]

Interesting analysis. But I think vox has only given people like Neanderthal more reasons to hate berners.

[b]The only reason trump won is because of 3rd party voters like me and stupid berners.[b]

I'm glad you're finally acknowledging it. 3rd party voters in three states determined the outcome of the election. And because of their petulance here we are.

Now the courts are stacked. Stacked deep with hard right jurists accountable to no one. The Supreme Court is stacked. Women's reproductive rights are in danger. Immigrants, ... well, as we speak, babies are locked in cages. Voting rights are being peeled back. The government passed a tax bill that only helped the rich and corporations. The national debt has ballooned. I could go on and on and on.


Elections have consequences. Vote your heart in the primary by all mean, but the general election is not the place for puritan petty fuckery. We all suffer.

[neanderthal]

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/24/16194086/bernie-trump-voters-study

This is one of many articles about it. Basically a primary loser's supporters, sometimes end up voting for the other party's candidates. And that includes open primaries I think.

My main problem with the Vox article is that it overlooks context in order to reinforce the point its trying to put across.


Moreover, defections from a primary to general election are common. More voters went from Hillary Clinton to John McCain in 2008 than went from Sanders to Trump in 2016; about 13 percent of Trump’s 2016 voters also voted for Barack Obama in 2012.

After President Obama was elected, the VRA was weakened. Lots of voter rolls were tampered with. Voter suppression. Gerry mandering. Etc. Some of these happen all the time, by both parties, but the breadth of what was now happening was unprecedented.

[neanderthal]

https://i.imgur.com/qgtiUUC.jpg


The same people who create and post those memes (the Bernie left, who are constantly excoriating the Democrats) are the ones who vote 3rd party in the general. Then blame Democrats for the mess.

[Tom Servo]

I think I'm in a similar boat to neanderthal (and correct me if I'm wrong), but Bernie supporters are cool. I voted for him in the primary last time, and I like him but am fully aware of his flaws as a lawmaker. Bernie bros, on the other hand, can fuck right off all day long.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Who are Bernie bros?

Ok, had to google that, not sure why I’ve never heard of such term before... now since I’m not white and don’t really harass people on Twitter, I’m just a regular supporter, right? ;)

[FaultyMario]

Why aren't your voter registration/demarcation boards independent?

[FaultyMario]

Best explanation I've heard about Suleimani was that he was an equivalent of Soviet Marshal Zhukov. A guy who went and killed a cult of radical conservatives who threatened the motherland. He might have not been liked, people might have not agreed with his methods but he stopped the crazies before they crossed the border. The masses at his funeral were not there out of a sense of respect or loyalty to the man but by national unity in the face of grievance.

Donnie again proves that he is a galvanizing agent.

[Jason]

Hold on. Right below my "fuck Bernie and his acolytes" is a far more stinging fuck Trump and the Trumpanzees. My scorn of Trump voters is loud and often.

My discord with the Bernie faction is because of their misdirected outrage. You'll see far more criticism of Democrats from the Bernie wing, and often misplaced blame.

Case in point, bills have been passed in Congress that the Senate hasn't bothered to take up for a vote. The inaction of the Senate is labelled as inaction of the Democrats in charge Congress.
And here we have Billi blaming Democrats for funding the government. If the government shuts down the most affected people are the poor. They lose access to services, funds, programs that help them get by. Low wage workers working for contractors with contracts to do things like clean government offices, etc, now don't have work. So no paycheck.

but Billi and co don't care.

I just asked him would he rather the poor are affected by a government shut down or the government is funded and he decided purity of cause is more important. Mind you, Bernies entire shtick is about the poor and working class being cheated by a system that rewards the wealthy. Now, he's right about that, but, if his, and their, concern was indeed the poor, then you'd expect them to actually consider the poor in this situation. Nope! Purity politics wins out.

This is why I beef with the hard left; they're closer to Trumps acolytes than they are to people who truly care for the poor.

My point is, Billi and company don't represent the majority of progressives, or Sanders, or Warren. So the moderate blowback at progressives is misdirected.

[FaultyMario]

I'm sure this cap from Warren's website is going to be popular.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENm6TuLU0AAA1Ka.jpg

[Jason]

Castro endorsed Warren... I'd love to see a Warren/Castro ticket.

Unfortunately with both Sanders and Warren running, Biden is all but guaranteed the nomination.

Mo, you'll be happy to know that I plan on voting for Biden, in the general, even though he isn't my perfect candidate.

But I'm sure progressives will still be blamed should he lose.

[drew]

I actually work (well, worked with) people that said they have Trump regret, voting for him last time. But now, "still can't trust any of the Democrats running to vote for any of them. They all just seem shady."

"um, o.k..."

I find it absolutely baffling. HE WAS IMPEACHED, not to mention any number of other despicable/irrational action he, his "cabinet" or party has done.

How are those tax cuts working out for you?

[MR2 Fan]

Thats fine, let them stay home....let all disenfranchised Trump voters stay home

[Crazed_Insanity]

My point is, Billi and company don't represent the majority of progressives, or Sanders, or Warren. So the moderate blowback at progressives is misdirected.

I really don’t understand why we need to have any blowbacks whatsoever.

Bro or supporter, progressives just want the dem establishment to do more soul searching..., reflect and admit where they went wrong instead of just blaming Donald Trump on the deplorable voters. Failed policies on just the worst congress ever. Hillary’s failed bid on sander supporters.

I really cannot believe dem establishment is where it is today because it has done absolutely no wrong therefore no changes needed to be made. Let’s just keep the status quo... unless the democrats rename themselves the Pragmatists, I really believe the dems are on a wrong path. Wrong as in union leaders getting too cozy with the corporate execs. When businesses fail, it’s understandable that republicans would want to save the executives 1st, but dems were basically doing the same as the republicans! Ok, banks were really too big to fail, we had to do it! Fine. So come 2016, it ended up being Trump pretending to care about workers in swing states, and Hillary was still being pragmatic and sleeping with wall st...

Anyway, if the Sanders/progressives really hated the dems that much, they prob would’ve chosen to run as a republican, but that’d be way too contrary to their core belief...

So in a nutshell, progressives just want a better Democratic Party, at least return it to its roots. The blowback now is we’re good enough already, we’re being pragmatic, we know what we’re doing... stop bugging us. You guys aren’t even real democrats, blah,blah,blah...

But com’on, reality is that the dem establishment has been enabling the republicans and Trump. If it weren’t for the personal charisma of Bill Clinton and Obama, dem establishment would probably be in an even worse off place today.

[Jason]

I actually work (well, worked with) people that said they have Trump regret, voting for him last time. But now, "still can't trust any of the Democrats running to vote for any of them. They all just seem shady."

"um, o.k..."

I find it absolutely baffling. HE WAS IMPEACHED, not to mention any number of other despicable/irrational action he, his "cabinet" or party has done.

How are those tax cuts working out for you?

Disinformation campaigns have completely destabilized US politics. It's impressive work, but fucking terrifying.

[FaultyMario]

Let that (https://observer.com/2003/04/off-the-record-35/)sink in.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENm29gWVAAEfwVH.jpg

[MR2 Fan]

Disinformation campaigns have completely destabilized US politics. It's impressive work, but fucking terrifying.

Not just US, but UK and Australia as well....all amazingly run by Rupert Murdoch

[neanderthal]

My point is, Billi and company don't represent the majority of progressives, or Sanders, or Warren. So the moderate blowback at progressives is misdirected.

You are absolutely right. The majority of progressives don't throw more shit at the Democrats than the Republicans. That's a small slice of (insert invective of choice!) who do that.

My ire is directed at those (the ones described by your invective) who practise, ... lets call it conditional allyship. They continue to state/ stake their political alliance with the poor/ women/ the marginalised/ etc but then quickly revert to type when those groups who are ostensibly their allies are placed under duress/ danger. Lets call it "alliance theatre."

A perfect example would be Billi's numerous screeds about economic/ political inequality benefiting the rich too much (this implies that his allyship is with the poor and marginalised, right) but given a scenario where he can advocate for the "allies" or political purity, he chooses political purity. In other words, given two bad choices (fund the government, therefore funding the babies in cages, or don't fund the government, he makes a choice that now also impacts another group people, those who would be harmed by a government shut down.) he takes a stance that washes his hands of political impurity, while completely ignoring the effects of his actions.
They state Medicare For All (which can't happen overnight!) but trash ideas that get our system closer to that medicare for all. The perfect the enemy of the good. All while saying nothing about the Republicans who are actually trying to dismantle Obamacare, even to this day.

Politics is an ugly, dirty game. I'm in no way "clean." In the real world the Democrats funding the government hurts immigrants and those seeking shelter from harm we are directly and indirectly responsible for in their countries. Not funding the government doesn't change that for the babies in jails. For the kids locked in pens, taking care of other kids and babies.
But our politics should not rope in another group of people to be harmed, to meanwhile do nothing about the first group.

I don't know how active you are on twitter. The "Bernie bro type" is vociferous, and very active. They swarm the pages of blue check marks (verified twitter users) who are primarily women, black women, immigrants and their advocates, Native Americans, etc and get them banned, twitter jailed, make false reports about them, disingenuously engage them, misrepresent things they've said (context is so important!!!) and then ... get their (that part is contentious, I really don't know if they do that) bros to do the same. Regardless, when they do what they do, it's better to just stay off twitter if you're their victim. But when you come back you've been twitter jailed, or banned, because of their false reports. There are people I follow who are on their 7th or 8th handle; the others banned due to false reporting. By bros.

Billi may not be one of them, but by God he walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don't use Twitter, I guess that's why I was unfamiliar with them.

Still to say that I'm more critical of the democratic party than the republican party shows that you don't really know me that well and you're just as good as those Bernie bros at passing judgments at people you disagree with ever so slightly...

I'm saying the democratic establishments favor handing out bailing out the rich is wrong... and if I were a lawmaker and to force a govt shut down fighting for the working class, than I'm actually against the poor all of a sudden?

And whether its obamacare or medicare for all... what difference does it make? Either one would be better than what we have now. What the fuck is there to fight about?

During this political football game, dem establishment has been losing. We're losing points against the republicans... and republicans fought their own games against trump and couldn't win... and now Trump is further helping the republicans to beat the dems.

Should we maintain the same strategy and hope that we'll win a point or 2? Or perhaps it's time for us to try another strategy?

That's all I'm getting at. I can't speak for the Bernie Bros, but I'm pretty sure that's what most progressives want to try. Another strategy to beat the republicans. Not the same old losing strategy.

[neanderthal]

I really don’t understand why we need to have any blowbacks whatsoever.

Bro or supporter, progressives just want the dem establishment to do more soul searching..., reflect and admit where they went wrong instead of just blaming Donald Trump on the deplorable voters. Failed policies on just the worst congress ever. Hillary’s failed bid on sander supporters.

I really cannot believe dem establishment is where it is today because it has done absolutely no wrong therefore no changes needed to be made. Let’s just keep the status quo... unless the democrats rename themselves the Pragmatists, I really believe the dems are on a wrong path. Wrong as in union leaders getting too cozy with the corporate execs. When businesses fail, it’s understandable that republicans would want to save the executives 1st, but dems were basically doing the same as the republicans! Ok, banks were really too big to fail, we had to do it! Fine. So come 2016, it ended up being Trump pretending to care about workers in swing states, and Hillary was still being pragmatic and sleeping with wall st...

Anyway, if the Sanders/progressives really hated the dems that much, they prob would’ve chosen to run as a republican, but that’d be way too contrary to their core belief...

So in a nutshell, progressives just want a better Democratic Party, at least return it to its roots. The blowback now is we’re good enough already, we’re being pragmatic, we know what we’re doing... stop bugging us. You guys aren’t even real democrats, blah,blah,blah...

But com’on, reality is that the dem establishment has been enabling the republicans and Trump. If it weren’t for the personal charisma of Bill Clinton and Obama, dem establishment would probably be in an even worse off place today.

You really should flesh out your thoughts.


Bro or supporter, progressives just want the dem establishment to do more soul searching..., reflect and admit where they went wrong instead of just blaming Donald Trump on the deplorable voters. Failed policies on just the worst congress ever. Hillary’s failed bid on sander supporters.

Try this.
A) Give examples.
B) Examine those examples. Take apart your example. Show us what is wrong with it. Demonstrate where it could have been better and HOW.
C) Make sure that those examples are placed in context. See bold. When you blame Democrats for inaction during the tenure of the worst congress ever, you're saying you don't know how r e a l i t y works. Right now, McConnell can hold up the legislative agenda of the entire government. Because he decides the action going on in the Senate. (That's what Nancy Pelosi did as speaker to get Obamacare rammed through. The Republicans could only take potshots at it and threaten Democrats in red states to weaken it, but they couldn't do shit about what she put on the agenda, and by God that's how it came to pass.) Blaming the Democrats for McConnell's actions shows a level of intellectual scrutiny akin to that of a juvenile. A juvenile duck.
D) End with a conclusion that dovetails with your thoughts in point B.

Vis a vis the paragraph following the above.
Nobody is saying Democrats are perfect. Except those who are criticising them as though they are claiming to be perfect.

Your criticism of "union leaders getting too close to corporate execs" is exactly what is lacking in your analyses. You've made half a point, but haven't connected it to the Democrats. I agree; union leaders shouldn't get too cozy with the execs, otherwise they end up not representing their union brothers and sisters, but ... what does that have to do with the Democrats?
You haven't cited the distinction in your "when businesses fail" statement, that democrats are often trying to save the business where republicans are trying to save the executives.
"Ok, we had to save the banks" ends up being about Trump pretending to care for blue collar workers in suing states. Where is the connection? What does that have to do with unions? And why is Hillary being criticised for fundraising? What's the connection? Is there context in acknowledging the broke state of the Democratic Party in your little jab at Hillary there?

Anyway, I got better things to do than tell you, again, how to present your thoughts. Sometimes I think there are conspiracy theorists who present their thoughts more lucidly than you.

[neanderthal]

I don't use Twitter, I guess that's why I was unfamiliar with them.

Still to say that I'm more critical of the democratic party than the republican party shows that you don't really know me that well and you're just as good as those Bernie bros at passing judgments at people you disagree with ever so slightly...

I'm saying the democratic establishments favor handing out bailing out the rich is wrong... and if I were a lawmaker and to force a govt shut down fighting for the working class, than I'm actually against the poor all of a sudden?

And whether its obamacare or medicare for all... what difference does it make? Either one would be better than what we have now. What the fuck is there to fight about?

During this political football game, dem establishment has been losing. We're losing points against the republicans... and republicans fought their own games against trump and couldn't win... and now Trump is further helping the republicans to beat the dems.

Should we maintain the same strategy and hope that we'll win a point or 2? Or perhaps it's time for us to try another strategy?

That's all I'm getting at. I can't speak for the Bernie Bros, but I'm pretty sure that's what most progressives want to try. Another strategy to beat the republicans. Not the same old losing strategy.

Read my post after this, then repost this post with those points in mind. I'm trying to understand it, but the thoughts and reasoning jump to and fro with no apparent reason.

And, your criticisms of the Democratic Party have been many and loud. The Republicans, not so much; you hardly mention them. You know who else does that? The bros.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Your criticism of "union leaders getting too close to corporate execs" is exactly what is lacking in your analyses. You've made half a point, but haven't connected it to the Democrats. I agree; union leaders shouldn't get too cozy with the execs, otherwise they end up not representing their union brothers and sisters, but ... what does that have to do with the Democrats?
You haven't cited the distinction in your "when businesses fail" statement, that democrats are often trying to save the business where republicans are trying to save the executives.
"Ok, we had to save the banks" ends up being about Trump pretending to care for blue collar workers in suing states. Where is the connection? What does that have to do with unions? And why is Hillary being criticised for fundraising? What's the connection? Is there context in acknowledging the broke state of the Democratic Party in your little jab at Hillary there?


I didn't like Obama not prosecuting even just one banker after the financial crisis.
I didn't like Hillary being so cozy with wall st bankers and see her campaign being financed by them bankers.
When push comes to shove, isn't it obvious that the pragmatic established democratic politicians will side with the rich, not with the average working folks?

Bernie and Yang has demonstrated money could be raised without the need to cozy up to the corporate bankers.

Trump is just a weasel who took advantage of the disgruntled working class who lost their jobs.

Something happened that caused workers to lose jobs. Whatever the reason might be, we need to address it somehow. Bernie may not have the correct solution, but it sure would be better than to stay the same course.

Dems cannot just count on personal charisma of future presidents. If Dems don't change or at least do something different, stupid republicans will continue to score more points in this political football game.

I really don't think Bernie has that much charisma, but why do you think he was able to raise so much money from average americans?

Don't let the bros' stupid actions or Billi's rambling thoughts blind you. I don't think you're being pragmatic by holding on to the democratic establishment.

[IMOA]

Not just US, but UK and Australia as well....all amazingly run by Rupert Murdoch

In Australia I wouldn't agree with that, I think thats an excuse for the left side of politics running a set of policies the public didn't want, having poor leaders, not accepting any reasonable criticism and instead blaming outside factors for their own defeats.

[IMOA]

[/spoiler]

Read my post after this, then repost this post with those points in mind. I'm trying to understand it, but the thoughts and reasoning jump to and fro with no apparent reason.

And, your criticisms of the Democratic Party have been many and loud. The Republicans, not so much; you hardly mention them. You know who else does that? The bros.

I gotta say, for shits and giggles, you might want to try counting your posts attacking Billi and then those which constructively criticise the policies of Trump/Republican party. I think you might be looking at a mirror.

[Crazed_Insanity]

In Taiwan, there's a very contentious presidential election coming up too. Pretty sure there's no Ruper Murdoch meddling, but Taiwan establishment/medias are very capable of playing the same game causing the rise of a similar stupid trump-like figure.

Same thing is happening all over the globe. It's not just Rupert's fault or nationalists' fault or Berner's fault... our societies need a course correction. Our economic system is sick... and the symptoms are either stupid ass nationalists leaders or perhaps riots on the streets. Take your pick. Either way, we need to make changes to fix what's broken.

[MR2 Fan]

The symptoms are probably the same:

Rich, powerful people who have paid off politicians and bought enough of money to buy media outlets to spread the message that the rich oligarchy is not to blame, but insert any of the below that sticks:

1.) Poor
2.) Unemployed
3.) Immigrants
4.) Welfare recipients
5.) people of different nationality/skin color/religion, etc.

or any combination of the above....playing to people's most basic fears in order to maintain power.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I gotta say, for shits and giggles, you might want to try counting your posts attacking Billi and then those which constructively criticise the policies of Trump/Republican party. I think you might be looking at a mirror.

At least I understood that he IS critical of Trump/Republicans. I think he just doesn't understand me that much and think that I love Trump and the republicans.

My critiques of democrats were only meant to help them win the game against the republicans. I just don't understand why the democratic establishment is being so stubborn about trying a different strategy to try to beat the republicans. It's like all they can do is play defense... when they lose the game, their excuse is that we're being pragmatic. Even with their offense, like impeachment, yes, we know it’s the morally right thing to do but realistically, you know you won’t score any points with such a move.

Obama gave the 'hope' of a leader willing to play offense and to kick W’s ass, but I have to say I was a bit disappointed after 8 years.

Bernie and Andrew are now the ones giving me similar hope. Will they be able to deliver? Not sure. But trying a different strategy will surely be better than putting the same injured dejected players who think they need corporate sponsorship in order to lose.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The symptoms are probably the same:

Rich, powerful people who have paid off politicians and bought enough of money to buy media outlets to spread the message that the rich oligarchy is not to blame, but insert any of the below that sticks:

1.) Poor
2.) Unemployed
3.) Immigrants
4.) Welfare recipients
5.) people of different nationality/skin color/religion, etc.

or any combination of the above....playing to people's most basic fears in order to maintain power.

Not sure if I completely agree but I can agree with the general sentiment.

Republicans are great at fear.

Democrats are great at being more rational.

Emotions always trumps reasons with human brains.

Dems can only win whenever voters sense hope. Give people hope! Not just I’m the most sensible and electable... I don’t dislike Biden as much, but I’m pretty sure he’ll be no match against the republicans.

[IMOA]

The symptoms are probably the same:

Rich, powerful people who have paid off politicians and bought enough of money to buy media outlets to spread the message that the rich oligarchy is not to blame, but insert any of the below that sticks:

1.) Poor
2.) Unemployed
3.) Immigrants
4.) Welfare recipients
5.) people of different nationality/skin color/religion, etc.

or any combination of the above....playing to people's most basic fears in order to maintain power.

Have you ever stopped to think that some people simply have a different point of view to you and that it has absolutely nothing to do with being paid off or bought. Talking for the last election in Australia while there will always be elements in the news which tries to simplify things to that level (right wing populists), there is also a lot of media which tries to simplify things down to 'business owners bad, people good' (left wing populists), and these elements do make a lot of noise, the actual election was decided by the people in the middle. Ultimately the Labor party lost because they had a very unpopular leader, they alienated their traditional working base by pandering to socially progressive voters while ignoring the economic impacts of those policies on their traditional base and alienated older voters with a number of changes to the treatment of retirement income and peoples ability to self contribute to that.

If they own those mistakes then they will win the next election, if they don't and instead blame outside factors and don't own their own mistakes they will lose. The thing which I see as a constant in the US, UK and Australia is that the left side of politics is doing a lot of the latter and not enough of the former and frankly this thread is a really good example of that.

[neanderthal]

Just saw a tweet where one of the bros wished a brain tumor on one of the people (a black woman. A Lawyer.) I follow.

[neanderthal]

I gotta say, for shits and giggles, you might want to try counting your posts attacking Billi and then those which constructively criticise the policies of Trump/Republican party. I think you might be looking at a mirror.

I wouldn't be surprised.

If you also look at those posts you'll likely find that a lot of the time I'm responding to something he's posted. I'm not just attacking him out of the blue.

[Crazed_Insanity]

At least we GTXFers would never wish such a thing on each other.

Worst case scenario is somebody pickup his ball and go home and never come back...

So I'm not a Bernibro bitch! :p

Bernibros would only attack tweets that other tweeters posted. Maybe they'll attack people out of the blue too? I'm really quite unfamiliar with them until recently... I think realizing their existence kinda helped me understand why you feel the need to direct your anger toward me.

[George]

Just saw a tweet where one of the bros wished a brain tumor on one of the people (a black woman. A Lawyer.) I follow.

CNN link: A [Denver] radio show was canceled after a host said 'a nice school shooting' would break up the monotony of the Trump impeachment coverage (https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/19/us/denver-radio-school-shooting-impeachment-trnd/index.html)

[Tom Servo]

I believe that was the same station that suddenly had to yank a new planned show when it turned out the host was a member of the Proud Boys right before that happened, and fired another show's executive producer after he was linked to years of neo-Nazi social media posts. Nice bunch of folks over there at KNUS.

[neanderthal]

At least I understood that he IS critical of Trump/Republicans. I think he just doesn't understand me that much and think that I love Trump and the republicans.

My critiques of democrats were only meant to help them win the game against the republicans. I just don't understand why the democratic establishment is being so stubborn about trying a different strategy to try to beat the republicans. It's like all they can do is play defense... when they lose the game, their excuse is that we're being pragmatic. Even with their offense, like impeachment, yes, we know it’s the morally right thing to do but realistically, you know you won’t score any points with such a move.

Obama gave the 'hope' of a leader willing to play offense and to kick W’s ass, but I have to say I was a bit disappointed after 8 years.

Bernie and Andrew are now the ones giving me similar hope. Will they be able to deliver? Not sure. But trying a different strategy will surely be better than putting the same injured dejected players who think they need corporate sponsorship in order to lose.

Impeachment. Can of worms. There were grounds for impeachment on day one (emoluments) but it needed to be something solid, something substantial, something that would stick, something irrefutable. A pragmatic party doesn't impeach a president for blowjobs. And there were people weeping and wailing and gnashing their teeth over the Democrats lack of action in impeaching tRump. Nevermind that the Senate won't do anything about it, they wanted an impeachment.
Pelosi has, IMO, done a great job in getting this through; the right charges, at the right time, in the right climate, to get the right result.

It's an election year. If tRump hadn't assassinated an Iranian general the news would be abuzz with talk of impeachment. (He should be impeached, again, for that, IMO. And he should go before a court, preferably at the Hague.) Anyway, the timing, right before the election year, was going to give the Democrats time to frame the republicans as co- conspirators if they defended him, or drive a wedge if they abandoned him.

Dude, President Obama had the, say it with me now, ... worst. congress. ever. Do the actions of Republicans EVER register in the form of context when you say/ think these things? Here's an idea; you and your third party voting ilk should vote Democrat for two election cycles. If they are unable to fix much as regards healthcare, minimum wage, etc etc etc, then you have every right to complain that they're ineffective. But President Obama had a Democratic led government for 6 months (i forget where I saw the breakdown of how/ when all the parts fit together and changed.)

Bernie has done nothing substantial in government for nearly 40 years. Named Post offices. Yelled at the clouds. That's ... about it. It's curious that you excoriate the Democrats constantly as failing, inept, bumbling stooges, yet see hope in someone who's done jack shit for almost their entire four decade political career.

There are three branches of government, the Presidency, the Congress (includes the Senate) and the Supreme Court. All are ALWAYS at play in elections, especially Presidential elections.

[neanderthal]

At least we GTXFers would never wish such a thing on each other.

Worst case scenario is somebody pickup his ball and go home and never come back...

So I'm not a Bernibro bitch! :p

Bernibros would only attack tweets that other tweeters posted. Maybe they'll attack people out of the blue too? I'm really quite unfamiliar with them until recently... I think realizing their existence kinda helped me understand why you feel the need to direct your anger toward me.

Your rhetoric, your ideas, your behaviour, is very similar to them.

One doesn't need to be IN the klan to be a racist. (I'm not calling you a racist, but you, ... ah fuck it, you have tendencies!)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Bernibros attack people, I don’t go around attacking people who I disagree with... I think that was IMOAs point. I’d criticize politicians yes, but I don’t think I’ve ever attacked anyone here.

I do have my tendencies to ramble on too much.

All I have to say is that I’ve already given Obama 8 years. I was disappointed. Don’t get me wrong, I do believe the alternative would be much worse. Even with hindsight, Obama will get my votes still. I understand he had the worst congress ever but you really mean to tell me that congress held him back at prosecuting the bankers responsible for screwing people’s lives over all over the world?

And if dem establishment could lose congressional seats during Obama years, what makes you so optimistic about president Hillary/Biden’s prospects as they will attempt to restore the same legacy?

Anyway, I think we can only agree to disagree. You are also free to attack me all you want as long as the attacks won’t be physical! :p

It’s a free country, may the best candidate win! :)

If Biden’s the eventual nominee, my protest vote would be against trump this time. So I will give it to Biden, but you’ll see that once again, my vote won’t matter.

I still do believe the candidates with grassroots support will have a better chance beating trump. Their new directions/solutions might also turn this shit around...

[drew]

McConnell said while Obama was president "it is my proudest moment to [essentially] block everything", as well as the whole Garland nominee bullshit.....

Current democrat congress has drafted 250-300 bills, and sent them to the senate, where once again, McConnell has done nothing with them.

Then the "president" goes on TV spouting "do nothing congress", and his supporters eat it up.

Dumb fucks drinking the GOP Kool-aid, because they only see one source of "state" news, and refute all others as "fake" per design.

I saw one post on LinkedIn (yes, LinkedIn) that Comey should go to prison for "framing" Flynn. Seriously, what, the, fuck.

[Rare White Ape]

In Australia I wouldn't agree with that, I think thats an excuse for the left side of politics running a set of policies the public didn't want, having poor leaders, not accepting any reasonable criticism and instead blaming outside factors for their own defeats.

That is all true.

But also: Murdoch.

His press wages an endless war against the ABC and climate science. It led a scare campaign in 2019 against Labor with the DEATH TAX (which never existed) and basically buried the FTTP nbn in 2012 by running Tony Abbott as the man that Australia needed and helping to destroy the carbon tax.

Then subsequently killed Abbott and put up Malcolm Turnbull as a hero.

Then it killed him too and told everyone that Scott Morrison was a hero.

Now if you watch the news you’ll see that Morrison is being killed to death and within the next few months there will be another leadership spill where either Josh Frydenberg or Potato Dutton get the job.

Just wait and see.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Since I have no cable TV no more... I just saw this on youtube. Skip around to 6:14 to see a prophet, predicting back in 2011 why the president of the US decided to strike Iran now...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXARDOeSDyg

[Crazed_Insanity]

Not sure how reliable emerson polling is..., but FYI, Andrew Yang has broken through into the double digits! 10% BABY!!! Now only behind Sanders and Biden.

https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Es erp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

They also showed pretty much all top dem candidates could win in a match up against Trump... so maybe their results are a bit too optimistic...

Anyway, just happy to see Yang making some gains!

[Jason]

McConnell said while Obama was president "it is my proudest moment to [essentially] block everything", as well as the whole Garland nominee bullshit.....

Current democrat congress has drafted 250-300 bills, and sent them to the senate, where once again, McConnell has done nothing with them.

Then the "president" goes on TV spouting "do nothing congress", and his supporters eat it up.

Dumb fucks drinking the GOP Kool-aid, because they only see one source of "state" news, and refute all others as "fake" per design.

I saw one post on LinkedIn (yes, LinkedIn) that Comey should go to prison for "framing" Flynn. Seriously, what, the, fuck.

This has been pissing me off to no end. At least vote on the fucking bills. Put your names on record, cowards.

[IMOA]

That is all true.

But also: Murdoch.

His press wages an endless war against the ABC and climate science. It led a scare campaign in 2019 against Labor with the DEATH TAX (which never existed) and basically buried the FTTP nbn in 2012 by running Tony Abbott as the man that Australia needed and helping to destroy the carbon tax.

Then subsequently killed Abbott and put up Malcolm Turnbull as a hero.

Then it killed him too and told everyone that Scott Morrison was a hero.

Now if you watch the news you’ll see that Morrison is being killed to death and within the next few months there will be another leadership spill where either Josh Frydenberg or Potato Dutton get the job.

Just wait and see.

Yes Murdoch leans conservative right but Fairfax is leftish and ABC is more left than right, especially on social issues and Murdoch in Aus is nowhere near as bad as Murdoch/Fox in the US and the extremes which come close to that sort of reporting (eg Andrew Bolt) have nowhere near the penetration in Aus as they do in the US. I'd also say it's a bit silly to suggest that they killed Abbott to put in Turnbull (Murdoch hates Turnbull and ran a very strong campaign against him in support of Abbott) and when Turnbull was killed Dutton the dumb shit was Murdoch's 'man', not Morrison, the social conservatives were still super pissed at him because he was seen to support Turnbull over Abbott for his own political advancement (which I'd say is clearly what happened).

And ultimately the last election was a bad leader and policies which, on a whole, the Australian public rejected. People like to blame the Murdoch press because it means that it wasn't their fault but the reality is that if Labor had a better leader and not such a massively unpopular set of policies they would have won easily.

[FaultyMario]

I was thinking, If my safety depended on Pompeo I'd be worried, the guy sounds pretty incomp... wait... well, shit!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Is Pompeo in charge of the US military? No.

Commander in chief is a crazy man... when military presented Trump a menu of options, crazy man picked to most extreme option, which was to kill that general. Wonder what kind of menus the DOD is cooking up now. DOD is really stupid too. Why present a stupid option to such a mad man? If you don’t think it’s a good idea to kill this dude, don’t tell the president!!!!

Anyway, it’s all too late now. last time I checked, there are no Trump hotels in Iran. Good luck Iran. Maybe you guys can just target Trump hotels rather than continue to piss us Americans off.

[MR2 Fan]

Ukrainian 737 just crashed in Iran....seems very unlikely to be random

[neanderthal]

Ukrainian 737 just crashed in Iran....seems very unlikely to be random

It seems too, what's the word, coincidental?

[neanderthal]

Irani missiles fired at "our" bases in Iraq. (https://article.wn.com/view/2020/01/08/Iran_strikes_back_at_US_with_missile_attack_at_bas es_in_Iraq_u3/) Unconfirmed casualties. That's more than one base, for those who are counting.

May I once again, say fuck Trump, fuck Trump voters, fuck the conservatives who are letting all this shit happen, fuck Bernie, fuck Bernie bros, fuck third party voters, and especially fuck those that said Hillary was a war hawk. Fuck Bernie just coz.

[neanderthal]

Irani missiles fired at "our" bases in Iraq. (https://article.wn.com/view/2020/01/08/Iran_strikes_back_at_US_with_missile_attack_at_bas es_in_Iraq_u3/) Unconfirmed casualties. That's more than one base, for those who are counting.

May I once again, say fuck Trump, fuck Trump voters, fuck the conservatives who are letting all this shit happen, fuck Bernie, fuck Bernie bros, fuck third party voters, and especially fuck those that said Hillary was a war hawk. Fuck Bernie just coz.

Iraq reconsidering "our relationship" after Iran threatens all countries that are used as a base for ops against them. Middle east stability is, a tenuous thing right now I guess.

Fuck every single one of the groups and individuals I listed, again!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Can’t fuck them all. Gotta be more selective about who you fuck with.

Boeing really can’t catch a break... sigh....

Anyway, I’m hoping those bases are empty with zero casualties. If there were a lot of casualties, I can’t believe US not immediately respond back right away...

[mk]

Plenary session couple weeks ago.
Picturing PM(left) and FM.
https://www.is.fi/paakirjoitus/art-2000006365514.html

[neanderthal]

Is Pompeo in charge of the US military? No.

Commander in chief is a crazy man... when military presented Trump a menu of options, crazy man picked to most extreme option, which was to kill that general. Wonder what kind of menus the DOD is cooking up now. DOD is really stupid too. Why present a stupid option to such a mad man? If you don’t think it’s a good idea to kill this dude, don’t tell the president!!!!

Anyway, it’s all too late now. last time I checked, there are no Trump hotels in Iran. Good luck Iran. Maybe you guys can just target Trump hotels rather than continue to piss us Americans off.

As I recall, YOU said Hillary wanted us to be at war with Iran!!!! Which was one of the lies the Bernie left was slinging right before the election.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Obama stayed in the war, secretly got involved in Syria. Hillary surely would get involved too. We’ve always been in wars... Wars are good for the establishment. Just as gun sales are good in the US.

Of course only republican presidents were crazy enough to kill top dogs like saddam and totally destabilize the region... trump didn’t kill a dictator, but still...

Tensions are high, but are we officially at a new war?

If those bases had casualties, I can’t imagine us not fire back immediately.

As Times article puts it, this might just be Iran’s way of saving face and giving Trump a chance to de-escalate...

We’ll see.

[neanderthal]

[spolier]Obama stayed in the war, secretly got involved in Syria. Hillary surely would get involved too. We’ve always been in wars... Wars are good for the establishment. Just as gun sales are good in the US.

Of course only republican presidents were crazy enough to kill top dogs like saddam and totally destabilize the region... trump didn’t kill a dictator, but still...

Tensions are high, but are we officially at a new war?

If those bases had casualties, I can’t imagine us not fire back immediately.

As Times article puts it, this might just be Iran’s way of saving face and giving Trump a chance to de-escalate...

We’ll see.[/spoiler]

There you go again, telling us what will happen in the future. If all that is true then there was no difference between Trump and Hillary, meaning your protest vote was ... what exactly? A vote against healthcare.
President Obama inherited a war, got caught between a rock and a war in Syria, drew down our troops in both the arenas we were entangled in, negotiated a nuclear deal with Iran that was working, and all that is out the window because of you protest voters!

[FaultyMario]

Today's press conference, basically.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/b/bd/Dghndedbde.png

[drew]

Trying to find that picture of someone blowing themselves.

If anything, it's still amazing how EVERYTHING comes back to him. Like he was flying the drone himself.

I was really hoping he would take questions, that would have been awesome.

I sincerely hope NATO tells him to get fucked. He's trashed them since day one, and this is HIS mess. HE crated it.

Fuck this moron.

[Crazed_Insanity]

[/spoiler]

There you go again, telling us what will happen in the future. If all that is true then there was no difference between Trump and Hillary, meaning your protest vote was ... what exactly? A vote against healthcare.
President Obama inherited a war, got caught between a rock and a war in Syria, drew down our troops in both the arenas we were entangled in, negotiated a nuclear deal with Iran that was working, and all that is out the window because of you protest voters!

I wasn't particularly impressed with Obama's red tape. Either you don't lay that tape down... or you'd actually respond with somebody crosses it.

Anyway, when it comes to foreign affairs, there's really not much difference between W and Obama. The same unethical meddlings around the world in order to advance US establishment interests. My protest vote was about not wanting the continue that status quo and not wanting a pussy grabber in the WH. Hope you get it now after 3 years...

Finally, as much as I dislike this mad man Trump, I think world leaders are beginning to realize how truly crazy he is. I truly cannot imagine any dictator crazy enough to provoke and wage war with the US right now. Terrorists groups I can understand, but if you're a dictator sitting on your throne in a sovereign nation, why would you want to mess with Trump right now? So what if one of your top general's dead? You sure you want yourself dead too? Saddam didn't think W would actually do it. W did it. It's obvious Trump wouldn't mind glass your nation let alone bomb your cultural sites.

Hopefully this is the end of the escalation. Trump scored a political win and Iran was able to retaliate a bit and demonstrate they have to capability of delivering their missiles on target. Hopefully they'll stop messing with each other...

[FaultyMario]

Trying to find that picture of someone blowing themselves.


You're so stupid!

I'm guessing you're not that familiar with Adventure Time and Lumpy Space Princess. :p

[neanderthal]

You keep saying shit like


Finally, as much as I dislike this mad man Trump,

but you didn't vote for his opponent!

Hillary warned us. She said a man who can be engaged by a tweet shouldn't have control over nuclear weapons. But you called her a war monger! You don't get to be dismayed and outraged. Those of us that voted AGAINST can do that. You don't!



You keep saying there's no (foreign affairs) difference between W and Obama but you've never actually made that case.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Dude, I was protesting against both of them. Which part of my answer don't you understand? Am I rambling again? Thoughts all over the place so you're unable to follow what I'm saying?

Ask Mario what I meant by similar foreign affairs between W and Obama, particularly in central and south america.

Do we have any arabian/muslim GTFXer around? We can ask him about middle east. See if they like how Obama handled the middle east.

I don't believe these foreign nations could feel a regime change from W to Obama.

With Trump, of course the entire world felt a mad man has became president. But considering how many mad dictators around the world we have nowadays, maybe it's not that bad of a thing... as long as we don't start the nuclear war...

Seriously, these madmen knew Obama's red tape was meaningless. They could cross it and presidents like Obama won't be able to respond because he's a reasonable man and Americans just don't want war.

For Trump, he doesn't care what his opponents think... he doesn't care about your cultural sites. He only cares for his hotels and his own ego.

Waging a war with this dude is just crazy. My concern would be for a shadowy terrorist group fucking with Trump...

Lastly Neanderthal, it's kinda pointless discussion Hillary now, unless she's running again? Let's look forward...

If you're really against war, who are the candidates we should be voting?

Yep, exactly the same russian asset candidates you hate.

If you're serious about stopping stupid US wars, you have to learn to love those candidates. Otherwise, US will forever be entangled in stupid wars regardless of the party affiliation of the presidents.

[drew]

You're so stupid!

I'm guessing you're not that familiar with Adventure Time and Lumpy Space Princess. :p

:finger:

[FaultyMario]

If anything, it's still amazing how EVERYTHING comes back to him. Like he was flying the drone himself.


I just read he thanksobama'd the iranian attack. SRSLY?

I only caught the address from the "big, fat, juicy missiles" onward.

[drew]

You didn't miss much. Just the same, chopped up sentences with the same 15 word vocabulary, and we're the biggest and the best, and he's the greatest ever.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I just read he thanksobama'd the iranian attack. SRSLY?

I only caught the address from the "big, fat, juicy missiles" onward.

He was claiming Obama gave Iranians aid in the order of billions and the Iranians use the money to buy the missiles used to strike those bases. So he was sarcastically thanking Obama that way...

But of course he was lying, or fake newsing, or just plain ignorant? According the AP, this was how things went down: https://apnews.com/f53aeebcb0f64b76a2e2a54b2b002dad

BTW, that linked article was dated back in august of last year. So Trump is either continuing his lies, fake news, or stubbornly remaining ignorant.

Oh well, what can one expect?

Unless it's AP who's broadcasting fake news?

It's really hard to tell these days...

[Tom Servo]

That's the hard part. I still am never quite sure where the needle lies between idiot and evil. I know it's a mixture of the two, but it's hard to tell what he honestly believes despite the evidence to the contrary all around him vs. what he says full well knowing it's horseshit because it furthers his own ends. Like, did he truly believe that Obama wasn't born in the US, or did he just use that to gain political traction amongst a bunch of racists? I honestly can't tell.

[IMOA]

Anyway, when it comes to foreign affairs, there's really not much difference between W and Obama. The same unethical meddlings around the world in order to advance US establishment interests. My protest vote was about not wanting the continue that status quo and not wanting a pussy grabber in the WH. Hope you get it now after 3 years...

I'd say it is the opposite. Obama tried to build alliances and work together with other countries, Trump doesn't see any value in international alliances and has tried to threaten and bully other countries which has broken alliances. Obama was trustworthy in that if america committed to something then he would stay true to that, even if it was a previous president from the other side of the fence, Trump gives no fucks for past, or even his, commitments so other countries have learnt that whatever agreement they have with the US can be torn up at any time. Maybe you don't see it from your perspective within the US but the perspective from outside the US is the the US is no longer a reliable partner and can no longer be trusted. And while you may think that 'it's OK, when Trump is gone we'll be reliable again' I'll point out that you can always vote another Trump in and once you've broken that trust with other countries it will take a long time to rebuild.

Oh, and on the crazy thing. Here's the difference between Trump and Boris. Boris says crazy stuff and follows through. Trump says crazy stuff and always backs down. The US is much weaker than it used to be and has a lot less genuine friends.

[Crazed_Insanity]

No, I'm not comparing Trump to Obama, I was comparing W to Obama. :p

W and Obama looked quite different as night and day, particularly from within the US, however, from nations that involved US interests, I'm pretty sure there were almost no difference between the 2 admins' actions/policies.

Trump is obviously a completely different animal.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That's the hard part. I still am never quite sure where the needle lies between idiot and evil. I know it's a mixture of the two, but it's hard to tell what he honestly believes despite the evidence to the contrary all around him vs. what he says full well knowing it's horseshit because it furthers his own ends. Like, did he truly believe that Obama wasn't born in the US, or did he just use that to gain political traction amongst a bunch of racists? I honestly can't tell.

I honestly can't tell either. Only God can see inside of people's hearts. We're not gods.

However, we as humans could see actions. All I know is that although Trump has escalated tensions, thus far he has only pulled back troops and hasn't officially started a new war yet... knock on wood.

Seriously, what do you think that general was doing in Iraq anyway?

Normal presidents would never dare touch him... and allow him to continue to wreak havoc... and continue on the endless wars we get ourselves into.

With Trump, he just put a stop to it. Maybe he did managed to preemptively shorten the war...

This may also be a good time for us to exit Iraq. We're no longer welcomed. We also have no need to be there anyway.

That mistakenly sent memo illustrated US's intended to withdraw from Iraq..., but I guess they're still deciding...

[Tom Servo]

Seriously, what do you think that general was doing in Iraq anyway?

A few things. Iran wanted less US influence in Iraq. He also coordinated a lot of the Shia militias fighting ISIS (and did similar tasks in Afghanistan organizing militias against the Taliban). He was "responsible for carrying out much of Iran's military and diplomatic efforts over the past decade, from its support for Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria to its battles against ISIS in Iraq."

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-meaning-of-qassem-suleimanis-death-in-the-middle-east

[IMOA]

No, I'm not comparing Trump to Obama, I was comparing W to Obama. :p

W and Obama looked quite different as night and day, particularly from within the US, however, from nations that involved US interests, I'm pretty sure there were almost no difference between the 2 admins' actions/policies.

Trump is obviously a completely different animal.

Yeah, reading fail there :) I think there were differences in nuance but yeah, not that much different but then given the hand dealt it would be hard for either of them to be.

[Jason]

I'll just say I'm surprised, and happy to see we're going with economic sanctions vs all out armed conflict.

[drew]

I'll just say I'm surprised, and happy to see we're going with economic sanctions vs all out armed conflict.


Except, that's still a provocation. They're already sanctioned, since he ripped up the JCPOA, and those suspended sanctions were reinstated by that action. So he's essentially doubling the sanctions on them, which I'm sure they're "good" with.

I fear this is just a pause. While there may not be any direct military actions, like the (completely symbolic) attack a few days ago, they have cyber capabilities, and Hezbollah (among others).

Essentially, Iran proved to the world, that killing Soleimani did nothing.

The debrief with the various committees yesterday also didn't help the administration's case, as there was apparently a glaring lack of real substance/justification for what equates to a borderline war crime without it.


I actually got an IM on FB last night, from an old manager, whom has never messages me, or commented on anything on FB. It started with "Relax on the Iran stuff" (apparently, not happen with some of my thoughts/concerns, which I've also shared here) and ended with "it will never end unless we nuke them and turn the whole place into glass."

That's the exact mentality I was trying to comment TO. I got all sorts of "just a reminder to everybody defending the terrorists (and a picture of the burning twin towers)... Not the point I was making, at all.

The rah rah Americans, and seemingly, those Trump supporters that can see nothing wrong, instantly go all national pride when a few bombs fall, and it's fucking scary. Exact same thing happened with Bush.

[FaultyMario]

I feel the Iranian "we'll call the Iraquis about the attack (so they can tell the Americans)" was a sort of plausible deniability to international instruments. I do wonder about the nationalities of the (apparently) 80 casualties*.

[Tom Servo]

"just a reminder to everybody defending the terrorists (and a picture of the burning twin towers)...

Even if you could equate that people who share nationality or religion with the hijackers also share responsibility, none of the hijackers were Iranian (they were overwhelmingly Saudi Arabian with a couple from the UAE, one from Egypt, and one from Lebanon) and they were Sunni, not Shiite. Iran and Al-Qaeda have not traditionally been the best of friends, to put it mildly.

[Tom Servo]

Dude's claiming he's curing cancer now.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EN2Sl4WUEAIhQ-M?format=png&name=small

[Crazed_Insanity]

Dang, he's good. Should've voted for him. :rolleyes:

[neanderthal]

Except, that's still a provocation. They're already sanctioned, since he ripped up the JCPOA, and those suspended sanctions were reinstated by that action. So he's essentially doubling the sanctions on them, which I'm sure they're "good" with.

I fear this is just a pause. While there may not be any direct military actions, like the (completely symbolic) attack a few days ago, they have cyber capabilities, and Hezbollah (among others).

Essentially, Iran proved to the world, that killing Soleimani did nothing.

The debrief with the various committees yesterday also didn't help the administration's case, as there was apparently a glaring lack of real substance/justification for what equates to a borderline war crime without it.


I actually got an IM on FB last night, from an old manager, whom has never messages me, or commented on anything on FB. It started with "Relax on the Iran stuff" (apparently, not happen with some of my thoughts/concerns, which I've also shared here) and ended with "it will never end unless we nuke them and turn the whole place into glass."

That's the exact mentality I was trying to comment TO. I got all sorts of "just a reminder to everybody defending the terrorists (and a picture of the burning twin towers)... Not the point I was making, at all.

The rah rah Americans, and seemingly, those Trump supporters that can see nothing wrong, instantly go all national pride when a few bombs fall, and it's fucking scary. Exact same thing happened with Bush.

"It will never end unless we nuke em..."

Therein lies the problem. Americans seem entitled as to what they think they can do and not do to other countries and or people.

Playing devils advocate, do you guys realise just how vulnerable Americans are? How many points/ places can be attacked. How many Uhaul trucks there are running around that are so anonymous as to just be "background?" Those trucks can contain explosives ala Oklahoma City, or they could block an exit, bottling traffic, creating a killing field. A kamikaze in the back of the truck could have a machine gun and decimate a crowd of people at a marathon or state fair. A parade. How many events are taking place this weekend? How many football games? Concerts? Conventions? Church revivals? Auto shows?

And remember, you can go to you local walmart and buy a drone, and fly that over whatever event you wish (you're the terrorist so you don't care about rules.) to incite panic.

I went to Mt Rushmore last year. Enjoyed it (but too touristy.) One RPG. One "broken down" Uhaul truck blocking the exit. Some zealots screaming "death to America."
I went to a high school football game in my hometown. Nice stadium!!!! Not too many ways in, means not too many ways out (this latter part is not true but most people will try to go out the way they came in as that's all they know to go in, and, as far as they know, out.) All it takes is a couple of maniacs. And, there's a highway ONE minute away from this stadium.
(I'm thinking about places I went to) At the motorcycle show there was one parking lot with free parking for motorcycles. Most people who went there would have to go to that lot to leave. If there was a panic ...

There are lots of ways Americans could be terrorised, here in America, by a determined and crafty few people.

What happens when those others whom we feel entitled to nuke, start "defending" themselves proactively? (remember when Bush said that, "we attacked them before they could attack us" or something ridiculous like that.)

[FaultyMario]

And remember, you can go to you local walmart and buy a drone, and fly that over whatever event you wish (you're the terrorist so you don't care about rules.) to incite panic.

ORLY?
(https://embamex.sre.gob.mx/eua/index.php/en/recent/1582-mexico-considers-attack-in-el-paso-an-act-of-terrorism-against-mexicans-in-u-s)

[MR2 Fan]

"It will never end unless we nuke em..."

which is exactly the same sentiment a LOT of people in the middle east and other places think about the U.S.

It's not like Iran has bases spread out all over Mexico and Canada and the caribbean to launch potential offensives against us, like we have over there.

So many stupid Americans don't understand that a lot of people don't want our brand of "freedom". Then of course now we have "take their oil" Trump in the white house...ugggghhhh

[FaultyMario]

Canadian intelligence suspects (https://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/01/09/trudeau-intelligence-indicates-iran-shot-down-plane.html) an Irani Surface-to-air Missile took down the Ukrainian 737.

Is Justin trying to confirm the conspiracy theory that He is Castro's lovechild? Why is He growing that beard?

[Crazed_Insanity]

"It will never end unless we nuke em..."

Therein lies the problem. Americans seem entitled as to what they think they can do and not do to other countries and or people.

Playing devils advocate, do you guys realise just how vulnerable Americans are? How many points/ places can be attacked. How many Uhaul trucks there are running around that are so anonymous as to just be "background?" Those trucks can contain explosives ala Oklahoma City, or they could block an exit, bottling traffic, creating a killing field. A kamikaze in the back of the truck could have a machine gun and decimate a crowd of people at a marathon or state fair. A parade. How many events are taking place this weekend? How many football games? Concerts? Conventions? Church revivals? Auto shows?

And remember, you can go to you local walmart and buy a drone, and fly that over whatever event you wish (you're the terrorist so you don't care about rules.) to incite panic.

I went to Mt Rushmore last year. Enjoyed it (but too touristy.) One RPG. One "broken down" Uhaul truck blocking the exit. Some zealots screaming "death to America."
I went to a high school football game in my hometown. Nice stadium!!!! Not too many ways in, means not too many ways out (this latter part is not true but most people will try to go out the way they came in as that's all they know to go in, and, as far as they know, out.) All it takes is a couple of maniacs. And, there's a highway ONE minute away from this stadium.
(I'm thinking about places I went to) At the motorcycle show there was one parking lot with free parking for motorcycles. Most people who went there would have to go to that lot to leave. If there was a panic ...

There are lots of ways Americans could be terrorised, here in America, by a determined and crafty few people.

What happens when those others whom we feel entitled to nuke, start "defending" themselves proactively? (remember when Bush said that, "we attacked them before they could attack us" or something ridiculous like that.)

Can't disagree with you. So what would you do if you were president?

You obviously don't agree with Sanders and Tulsi, they want US troops outta there.

Do you want that?

If you think US is entitled to stick around the police and occupy the area, then terrorists will continue to hate you and could potentially do similar damages again like during 9-11.

Last time US glassed a nation was Japan. That certainly ended a war. But of course I'm pretty sure middle eastern terrorists don't have a central emperor to answer to. Whether we nuke them or simply base our troops there, they're going to hate us.

Only solution, IMHO, is move our troops home.

But surely the establishment cannot give up their oil in the middle east at the moment.

I really think the middle eastern terrorists are the rebels... and we are the evil empire trying to control and crush them. They've managed to destroy 2 of our death stars..., but of course we're strong enough to rebuild and be able to continue to destroy the world's economies even without our WTC buildings...

Main difference between that world far far away and ours is that we the storm troopers here have chance to vote.

Vote wisely.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xlfTVUqSRY

[Crazed_Insanity]

Canadian intelligence suspects (https://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/01/09/trudeau-intelligence-indicates-iran-shot-down-plane.html) an Irani Surface-to-air Missile took down the Ukrainian 737.

Is Justin trying to confirm the conspiracy theory that He is Castro's lovechild? Why is He growing that beard?

The plane was steadily climbing... Boeing didn't install MCAS on that plane... or if there was an engine failure, surely the plane should lose a bit of altitude. But no, according to data, it was steadily climbing... and then disappeared.

I'd say most likly missiles or just explosives onboard.

However, why would Iranians do this though? People onboard were mostly Iranians! It was an Ukranian airline!

They destroyed it all because of Boeing?

Yeah, it's probably a good idea for airlines to sanction themselves to not fly there or at least not fly US planes there I guess.

Such a sad situation...

[MR2 Fan]

Last time US glassed a nation was Japan. That certainly ended a war. But of course I'm pretty sure middle eastern terrorists don't have a central emperor to answer to. Whether we nuke them or simply base our troops there, they're going to hate us.


Very different situation for several reasons.

The US basically occupied Japan and took over with the overwhelming power of just having dropped two of the most destructive devices in history. The US, with General McArthur was VERY smart to keep the Emperor in power and made a peaceful transition not long after to give power back to Japan, with a constitution the US basically wrote for them.

Japan had no allies in the area, because they basically occupied a vast majority of Asia by that point. They really had no choice but to go along with what the US wanted.


Should we have taken over Iraq completely and installed a US military government and constitution? Maybe, but it wouldn't have worked since the whole region has a LOT more issues.

I do wonder what the middle east would be like if there was no more need for oil at all.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, Japan was pretty united and loyal to their emperor... middle easterners are pretty fractious. I understand the situation isn't apples to apples...

I honestly don't know what's the best course of action in middle east... however I do know we've created most of the problems in middle east while we're there. Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden were US creations. Creating terrorists aside. Civilian populations are suffering over there. We either sanction the governments who are against us and thus hurting the civilians there... or we end up supporting oppressive regimes and end up hurting their civilian population.

I think the best thing we can do for middle easterners is for us to get the fuck out of there. At least get the soldiers outta there. If doing businesses that are mutually beneficial is possible, then fine, but please no more guns and bombs.

Ever since the birth of Ishmael, born thru the maid servant, Abraham and Sarah had been oppressive to them. The tradition continues even til today. I think God was very generous with them to bless them with oil..., but maybe that ended up being a curse? Kinda like winning the Lotto? Would that be a blessing or a curse? anyway, people need to leave them alone and let them live the life they want to live. If you want their oil, pay them money. Play fair!

If they're going to destroy Israel..., well, I'd like to see them try. I'm pretty sure God can do a much better job protecting Israel than the Americans. Israel has lasted this long, it'll probably outlast USA.

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EN32e4kX4AMSfyO.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENxFp3OWsAE780d.jpg

[MR2 Fan]

I say we just get out entirely from the middle east. Whatever good we do there seems to be undone eventually and just makes us a target.

I hate to be one of those "they've been fighting for a thousand years" people, but I feel like there is some truth to it. Also, unless Saudi Arabia AND Iran changes how they do business, things will probably keep being a problem

[Tom Servo]

I dunno, just gettin' out didn't go so hot for us in Afghanistan.

[MR2 Fan]

I dunno, just gettin' out didn't go so hot for us in Afghanistan.

and that's because where Osama Bin Laden came from...Saudi Arabia....was US troops that didn't follow local customs and whatever other reasons he had. Afghanistan was just an easy place for him to set up camp.

The US isn't attacking the country of Nauru, you know why? because no one knows about Nauru and they don't have any presence here to worry about.

[neanderthal]

Can't disagree with you. So what would you do if you were president?

You obviously don't agree with Sanders and Tulsi, they want US troops outta there.

Do you want that?

If you think US is entitled to stick around the police and occupy the area, then terrorists will continue to hate you and could potentially do similar damages again like during 9-11.

Last time US glassed a nation was Japan. That certainly ended a war. But of course I'm pretty sure middle eastern terrorists don't have a central emperor to answer to. Whether we nuke them or simply base our troops there, they're going to hate us.

Only solution, IMHO, is move our troops home.

But surely the establishment cannot give up their oil in the middle east at the moment.

I really think the middle eastern terrorists are the rebels... and we are the evil empire trying to control and crush them. They've managed to destroy 2 of our death stars..., but of course we're strong enough to rebuild and be able to continue to destroy the world's economies even without our WTC buildings...

Main difference between that world far far away and ours is that we the storm troopers here have chance to vote.

Vote wisely.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xlfTVUqSRY

I'm against occupations.

The sooner we wean ourselves off oil the sooner we don't need to "maintain the stability/ peace/ whatever bullshit you choose to believe" there.
Solar panels on every roof. Battery back up systems in every house. Electric cars and scooters and bicycles for transport.

A smarter grid and a smarter public infrastructure (roads, energy, water, etc) Can be done in 10 years.

But Americans are too addicted to cheap things.

[FaultyMario]

U.S. presence in [insert colonialized territory] goes beyond cheap commodities.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'm against occupations.

The sooner we wean ourselves off oil the sooner we don't need to "maintain the stability/ peace/ whatever bullshit you choose to believe" there.
Solar panels on every roof. Battery back up systems in every house. Electric cars and scooters and bicycles for transport.

A smarter grid and a smarter public infrastructure (roads, energy, water, etc) Can be done in 10 years.

But Americans are too addicted to cheap things.

You sounded almost like a very pragmatic Russian asset... :p

[MR2 Fan]

That's right

https://static.posters.cz/image/750/posters/team-america-one-sheet-i1001.jpg

[Tom Servo]

I guess it's politics-related enough that I feel okay given you your regular reminder that Mike Huckabee wants to make us all kill ourselves rather than hear his jokes.



Attempting to get in on the wave of Harry and Meghan's abandoning royalty, Joe Biden has re-painted his bus and will now do the "No Monarchy" tour instead of "No Malarkey" which most ppl didn't understand anyway. Quid Pro Joe? Naw, Quid No Go.


https://twitter.com/GovMikeHuckabee/status/1215473717683290113 (Just as proof that I didn't make this up and this is literally something he thought was worth posting because this angers me)

[Rare White Ape]

I'm against occupations.

The sooner we wean ourselves off oil the sooner we don't need to "maintain the stability/ peace/ whatever bullshit you choose to believe" there.
Solar panels on every roof. Battery back up systems in every house. Electric cars and scooters and bicycles for transport.

A smarter grid and a smarter public infrastructure (roads, energy, water, etc) Can be done in 10 years.

But Americans are too addicted to cheap things.

It’ll never happen because the mega corporations that own the media and the government are too addicted to the profits they make from all that oil.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I guess it's politics-related enough that I feel okay given you your regular reminder that Mike Huckabee wants to make us all kill ourselves rather than hear his jokes.



https://twitter.com/GovMikeHuckabee/status/1215473717683290113 (Just as proof that I didn't make this up and this is literally something he thought was worth posting because this angers me)

Yes, quit poor jokes please!

Still, not worth getting upset about... am I missing something? Why does this not so funny tweet anger you?

[Crazed_Insanity]

It’ll never happen because the mega corporations that own the media and the government are too addicted to the profits they make from all that oil.

Well, if Bernie or Tulsi or Andrew wins the WH, Never say never...

If you want status quo of endless wars, vote establishment.

If you want to keep them terrorists on their toes, re-elect Trump!

[neanderthal]

Bernie is THE establishment. 40 years in government and hasn't done shit to show for it.

[FaultyMario]

Bernie is THE establishment. 40 years in government and hasn't done shit to show for it.

Gee, I wonder where I've heard that before...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EN3bL8tXUAEsQ_e.jpg

So which is it Mo, purity politics or establishment politics? They're kind of contradictory TBH.

[Tom Servo]

Justice Dept. winds down Clinton-related inquiry once championed by Trump. It found nothing of consequence. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/justice-dept-winds-down-clinton-related-inquiry-once-championed-by-trump-it-found-nothing-of-consequence/2020/01/09/ca83932e-32f9-11ea-a053-dc6d944ba776_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter)

[tigeraid]

Vote Bernie. That's all I have to say, as an outsider.

This is a well-written, balanced piece about our version of healthcare as it relates to the American system. Highly suggest the read:

https://prospect.org/health/what-medicare-for-all-really-looks-like/

[Crazed_Insanity]

Justice Dept. winds down Clinton-related inquiry once championed by Trump. It found nothing of consequence. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/justice-dept-winds-down-clinton-related-inquiry-once-championed-by-trump-it-found-nothing-of-consequence/2020/01/09/ca83932e-32f9-11ea-a053-dc6d944ba776_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter)

That's wonderful news! Now we can focus on investigating the Bidens now?

You know, I wish the justice department would investigate one of the bankers or those who worked closely with Jeff Epstein. OTOH, maybe they shouldn't waste taxpayers money, they probably won't be able to find anything of consequence anyway.

These stupid government agencies also couldn't find anything of consequence with regard to Trump either.

Does it meant total exoneration? Nope. Does it mean they're guilty? Nope. Just a giant waste of time and taxpayers' money... I think it's establishment's strategy to get the people mad at each other rather than allowing us the time to realize that we're suppose to be mad at them...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Bernie is THE establishment. 40 years in government and hasn't done shit to show for it.

That's only because he's probably obstructed by the establishment.

If he accomplished a lot as part of the worst congress ever, I'd be concerned.

As the worst congress ever, accomplished nothing is probably a good thing. ;)

[Tom Servo]

That's wonderful news! Now we can focus on investigating the Bidens now?

Why? What's there to investigate?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Okay, I need to "quit poor jokes" too. Hope I didn't anger you too much with that... :p

[Tom Servo]

Naah, not at all, but glad to hear it was a joke! Sometimes those are hard for me to pick up on over the internet, which you'd think I'd be a little more sensitive to.

[FaultyMario]

Stop One of the Trump Administration’s Biggest Environmental Assaults Yet (https://act.sierraclub.org/actions/National?actionId=AR0233960&id=70131000001Lp1FAAS)

Petition by the Sierra Club, currently at 5,000 of the 50,000 signatures goal.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Stop One of the Trump Administration’s Biggest Environmental Assaults Yet (https://act.sierraclub.org/actions/National?actionId=AR0233960&id=70131000001Lp1FAAS)

Petition by the Sierra Club, currently at 5,000 of the 50,000 signatures goal.

I put in my email address and it complained back saying that it's not valid. I double and triple checked. That is my address!!!

Oh well, maybe that's why they couldn't get that many signatures?

[drew]

Justice Dept. winds down Clinton-related inquiry once championed by Trump. It found nothing of consequence. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/justice-dept-winds-down-clinton-related-inquiry-once-championed-by-trump-it-found-nothing-of-consequence/2020/01/09/ca83932e-32f9-11ea-a053-dc6d944ba776_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter)

LOCK...HER...U...oh.

[MR2 Fan]

some other lady I never heard of just dropped out of the presidential race

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh, what a shame... I kinda liked her message of love...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think of this report of the leftist media?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CksWHucGqy0

The right really shouldn't believe everything FOX says, but should the left stay within their bubbles and consume news delivered to you by the leftist media?

I'd encourage all of us venture outside of our bubbles.

Our enemies are not the deplorable americans living down south nor the terrorists in the middle east.

Our common enemy is the manipulative establishment.

[Crazed_Insanity]

This is for Neanderthal. Obama is essentially endorsing Andrew Yang without actually mentioning his name...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vEqzOFTSPg

[MR2 Fan]

Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think of this report of the leftist media?

The right really shouldn't believe everything FOX says, but should the left stay within their bubbles and consume news delivered to you by the leftist media?

I'd encourage all of us venture outside of our bubbles.

Our enemies are not the deplorable americans living down south nor the terrorists in the middle east.

Our common enemy is the manipulative establishment.


I try to avoid most news run by large corporations. Although they have their own issues, I do prefer TYT, I just don't take everything the have opinions on on as the truth and honestly I do like when they have their anchors disagree (politely) on a subject.

Similar to this, apparently Hannity was supposed to have Geraldo on his show a few nights ago but since Geraldo was tweeting that he was going to push an anti-war stance, Hannity cancelled his appearance. Meanwhile EVEN Tucker Carlson said he is against the war on his show. It seems the Fox pundits were split on this issue.

[Tom Servo]

After watching the national news nearly ejaculate over the prospect of war with Iran, and CNN running stories about how awesome our military hardware is, I have a really hard time calling any of the major media "leftist".

[drew]

It's like a couple years ago when they dropped the MOAB (which did precisely fuck-all) and everybody shot their wad all over the teleprompter.

[Crazed_Insanity]

After watching the national news nearly ejaculate over the prospect of war with Iran, and CNN running stories about how awesome our military hardware is, I have a really hard time calling any of the major media "leftist".

I guess 'leftist' is only in comparison to Foxists... Relative to Bernie Sanders, I suppose you're right, they're not really leftist media.

Perhaps they're neo-liberalists? Anyway, point is that just like our Congress, they tend to give their support to the people who give them money. And I'd typically call those people the establishment.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I try to avoid most news run by large corporations. Although they have their own issues, I do prefer TYT, I just don't take everything the have opinions on on as the truth and honestly I do like when they have their anchors disagree (politely) on a subject.

Similar to this, apparently Hannity was supposed to have Geraldo on his show a few nights ago but since Geraldo was tweeting that he was going to push an anti-war stance, Hannity cancelled his appearance. Meanwhile EVEN Tucker Carlson said he is against the war on his show. It seems the Fox pundits were split on this issue.

Supposedly Trump is a fan of Tucker... so perhaps Tucker convinced him to stand down?

Anyway, most trump supporters voted for him assuming that he's anti-establishment; therefore, anti-war. Lots of soldiers come from Trump states..., so if Trump were to really drag us into another war, surely he'll lose significant number of his base, particularly friends and families of soldiers being sent over there...

All americans know that we have great weapons, but most sane people don't want to prove our greatness on battlefields. Not all Trump supporters are crazy.

[FaultyMario]

https://www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/bvgzp3/the-rapist-is-you-feminists-revolt-outside-harvey-weinsteins-trial

[neanderthal]

Justice Dept. winds down Clinton-related inquiry once championed by Trump. It found nothing of consequence. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/justice-dept-winds-down-clinton-related-inquiry-once-championed-by-trump-it-found-nothing-of-consequence/2020/01/09/ca83932e-32f9-11ea-a053-dc6d944ba776_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter)

But but but but but, ... her emails. :sadbanana:

[neanderthal]

Gee, I wonder where I've heard that before...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EN3bL8tXUAEsQ_e.jpg

So which is it Mo, purity politics or establishment politics? They're kind of contradictory TBH.

Bernie is a hypocrite.

He's a millionaire railing against the wealthy. And his purity politics bullshit is splitting the Demoratic party on one hand while enriching him on the other.


It's not mutually exclusive.

[neanderthal]

Gee, I wonder where I've heard that before...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EN3bL8tXUAEsQ_e.jpg

So which is it Mo, purity politics or establishment politics? They're kind of contradictory TBH.


See below for why I despise him. His acolytes can never acknowledge his failings. They've got a God complex about him.

Which is one of the reasons we call him St Bernard.


That's only because he's probably obstructed by the establishment.

If he accomplished a lot as part of the worst congress ever, I'd be concerned.

As the worst congress ever, accomplished nothing is probably a good thing. ;)

[neanderthal]

Gee, I wonder where I've heard that before...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EN3bL8tXUAEsQ_e.jpg

So which is it Mo, purity politics or establishment politics? They're kind of contradictory TBH.


That's wonderful news! Now we can focus on investigating the Bidens now?

You know, I wish the justice department would investigate one of the bankers or those who worked closely with Jeff Epstein. OTOH, maybe they shouldn't waste taxpayers money, they probably won't be able to find anything of consequence anyway.

These stupid government agencies also couldn't find anything of consequence with regard to Trump either.

Does it meant total exoneration? Nope. Does it mean they're guilty? Nope. Just a giant waste of time and taxpayers' money... I think it's establishment's strategy to get the people mad at each other rather than allowing us the time to realize that we're suppose to be mad at them...

And here's example #2.

Instead of investigating Trump for his misdeeds the Berner wants to investigate the Bidens. :facepalm

There's so much to investigate; trips to his properties, who is visiting his properties, who's working at his properties, why his son in law has a security clearance, why he hasn't given a white house briefing in ,checks notes> ever, emoluments, the sources of his funding, this Irani general thing, North Korea, etcetc etc so much shit to investigate.


The looney left wants to investigate the Bidens!

Make it make sense, please, ...

[Rikadyn]

After watching the national news nearly ejaculate over the prospect of war with Iran, and CNN running stories about how awesome our military hardware is, I have a really hard time calling any of the major media "leftist".

3446