Politics

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don’t recall I was ever in the black lives don’t matter camp.

Anyway, there are plenty of blame to go around. Blaming all on one group ain’t gonna change nothing.
Progressives accomplished nothing, blaming all on them will also solve nothing.

Point is, dems need to try something different in order to win more. Something ‘different’ has happened which allowed dems to win for now, but I really think dems need to develop their ‘brand’ better along with the progressives rather continued to be republican lite.

[Yw-slayer]

https://www.pcgamer.com/five-nights-at-freddys-creator-wont-apologize-for-trump-support/

[neanderthal]

I love seeing stuff like this.


https://youtu.be/s9_VOb4wnp8

It's edited of course and salient points are made, but the host does a great job of pointing out the incongruence of the Trump voters. How areyou FOR the working people and infavor of unions, but against the Biden administrations COVID and other proposals, while spewing corporatist "low taxes, smaller governement" bullshit. It hurts the brain.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just want to point out to you that this host (@6:12) pointed out that he's also a Bernie Sanders' supporter. Glad you could actually agree with a Bernie supporter. :p

Anyway, it's clear those Trump supporters are a bit confused... and very white. Of course, Hillary and Biden are white too, but perhaps trump supporters just wanted somebody else 'whiter' after Obama... and Trump fits the bill better.

If only Bernie Sanders could bring M4A for free and Green New Freebies, caucus with the GOP, and call himself the democratic small governmentist, these people will probably support him! ;)

Anyway, as one of them crazies and make no sense members here, I think I can understand them somewhat. Clearly these people are for progressive agendas, but just don't want to spend any tax money for these gains. They have a clear distrust of both corporations and government... that's why they don't want anymore money going to either. (Note: at least lowering taxes is not government giving them anymore tax money, we need to drill into them that this shouldn't be acceptable too!) Anyway, essentially these people want to fix the nation's problems without wanting to make any sacrifices. So naturally Trump the con-artist is the perfect man for them. Capable of saying whatever BS they want to hear to make them feel as if America is actually great again! Unfortunately Covid forced some of those people to see the real reality...

One thing I do agree with them crazies is that we cannot trust corporations and governments with shit load of money. Even if there's no corruption going on, such wealth will likely inflate their egos so much that they'd end up doing evil. Just look at what US is capable of doing abroad for its own interests. Also looking at Bill Gates... you thought he has retired and into philanthropy, yeah, the conspiracy theories may not be totally true, but Bill Gates is clearly not what his carefully crafted public image. I guess we have his ex-wife to thank.

The right think Bill Gates and the dems are totally evil... have sex with kids, trying to track us with vaccines...

Yeah, sounds ridiculous, but knowing what we know now about Bill Gates and Epstein, the real truth is probably somewhere in between what the right and left believed...

Something is obviously wrong with our nation. Republican's approach is totally ignore the problem and maintain status quo. Trump's approach is to pretending to solve the problem and making things worse. Dems do want to solve problems, but perfectly willing to settle with status quo because it's the pragmatic thing to do. Progressives are the ones who really want to solve problems, but I have to admit, I'm not sure I fully trust Bernie and AOC to be able to solve our problems. I trust in Bernie's integrity. At least he won't steal our tax dollars, but is he really that competent if given the power? Not so sure. As for AOC, heck, Nancy Pelosi used to be like AOC. Will AOC maintain her integrity like Bernie? That remains to be seen too.

I'm a supporter of progressive causes because I do believe we can't afford status quo no more. If Biden does a good job, then I guess we won't be needing the progressives.

I still believe if Biden could somehow raise the min wage and get affordable healthcare to work, he will become way more popular than Trump and folks might even forget about Sanders. Current environment is really the perfect time to work on these 2 issues. Of course as payback to his black supporters, hopefully he'll be able to reform the police too. If the pragmatic dems could get those things done or close to being done, I'd have no problems voting for Kamala.

However, if we continue on with poverty wages, sky high healthcare costs, and black lives lost, please don't blame me for wanting to support more progressive candidates.

[FaultyMario]

And on today's episode of "Free the Funds and The Market'll Follow" we present you with:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4FyNhRVEAAT-i_.jpg

[Rare White Ape]

Why does ND get good internet?

[Dicknose]

Why does ND get good internet?

Maybe no one is there!

BTW I just got 156Mbps on my mobile. Nice line of sight to a tower thats designed to service a road, not many houses around here.

[Rare White Ape]

I can easily get 100Mbps on my phone... except at my house where I'm lucky to get 10. This is relevant now because I lost my 200Mbps NBN connection when I had to move earlier this month and am on the waiting list for an install at the new place, which happens to be in a mobile coverage black spot for Optus.

[Crazed_Insanity]

25/3 mbps is good enough for me! :p

My home goes up to 200, but that’s only needed because it drops off pretty quickly as I move further away from the WiFi router…

Anyway, don’t really need all that speed except when I need to download huge files from work…

Similarly to medication, I guess Americans tend to have to pay extra compared to rest of the world… but then again we have way cheaper gas and cars! :p

[Rare White Ape]

That's what happens when you are also paying for the world's 3rd largest military force.

[Tom Servo]

My home goes up to 200, but that’s only needed because it drops off pretty quickly as I move further away from the WiFi router…

It's all about the mesh networks. I do not miss having dead zones in my house.

[Yw-slayer]

That's what happens when you are also paying for the world's 3rd largest military force.

Indeed, clearly 25/3 internet is a price some are willing to pay for living in THE WORLD'S MOST POWERFUL DEMOCRACY as the fellow citizen of the SON OF A UNITED STATES AIR FORCE OFFICER!!!!

[Rare White Ape]

https://media.vanityfair.com/photos/5df79c4e9222170008e19a3c/1:1/w_565,h_565,c_limit/top-gun-maverick-trailer-tom-cruise.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

Top gun maverick is a navy aviator bitch!

[Cam]

But he was inverted!

[neanderthal]

"We were ... advancing international relations."

[FaultyMario]

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91sxaZt3CaL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

Great political advertising. I don't know much about this guy, but I hope he listens to his communication advisors because he's running against a great communicator.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYMznvmx2oU

[neanderthal]

You spelled "liar" wrong.

That's a hell of an ad for him. Arkansas, I hope you do the right thing.

[FaultyMario]

It takes skill to manipulate.

SHS was given shit material and she pulled it off. Compare her job performance to those of other of Shitnozzle's Press Secretaries and you'll agree.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I hope that Chris Jones could run for President someday. America needs a Godly and also a scientific leader…, not one or the other…

[Crazed_Insanity]

Holy cow! Andrew Yang finished badly again! Neanderthal should be happy! ;)

I guess all these polls are not really polling actual voting population properly?

How can a candidate who’s always near the top of polls end up finishing 4th? His presidential bid was also showing hopeful percentage but ended up with dismal results.

Other than yang, could progressives also ever produce meaningful results? Or do they almost always start of strong and deflate near the end.

Hillary Clinton endorses opposition of Nina Turner… wonder if Hillary still continue to endorse house seats for all 50 states or she only chooses to oppose Bernie related candidates…

We still can’t even unite the dems, let alone our nation. :|

Will continue to pray for more progressive candidates to win. Sooner or later, progressives will win bigger! :p

[FaultyMario]

Yang is no progressive.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Whatever he is, as long as he’s not part of the establishment.

Anyway, it is possible that he might turn out to become an Asian trump. I really didn’t understand why he needed to side with Israel during that attack… he could’ve just stayed silent or something… if he was pandering to Jewish votes, then yeah, I’m beginning to question his integrity. NY certainly doesn’t need an Asian trump… somebody willing to say whatever people want to hear. Makes me wonder if he was essentially using UBI to attempt to legally’buy’ votes?

Anyway, I think his political career should be over now… 4th just isn’t very good result. Of course hopefully nobody rigged that election.

[neanderthal]

https://youtu.be/R7I5XFWzSY4

[Jason]

On sayings like “I’m voting for ____ because they aren’t part of the establishment”

The US is so fucking backwards with that stuff. Every other job, you want the prospective applicant to have experience. But for whatever reason, the common thought here is, we don’t want politicians to have experience legislating, or governing.

If I had hair to pull out, I would.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I do get that experience and qualification are definitely important under 'normal' circumstances.

When Covid hit, we particularly want 'normal' back.

However, once 'normality' is achieved and the establishment is back at business as usual, our government is just not being run properly regardless of who's in charge. People are just not being properly represented.

When people feel unheard, anti-establishment sentiments would rise. Consequently end up giving people like Trump a chance.

I suppose normal qualified folks probably don't even want such lousy thankless job. You either have to be pretty passionate about it or very narcissistic in order to go thru all that trouble to win elections...

Perhaps our best chance is for the establishment to wake up and reform by itself? That growing gap between rich and poor just won't be sustainable... Can't just listen to rich corporations all the time and can't just do whatever the hell we want abroad in the name of national interests...

I have to admit Biden is doing a decent job so far and not doing everything to please big corporations, particularly big pharma. I was impressed by that. So maybe there's still hope.

[Tom Servo]

On sayings like “I’m voting for ____ because they aren’t part of the establishment”

The US is so fucking backwards with that stuff.

Oh man, you reminded me of the people who said they voted for George W. because he seemed like a guy they wanted to have a beer with. There are lots of people I enjoy having beers with and most of them I wouldn't trust to run a lemonade stand, much less the country.

[Jason]

I’d definitely drink all the lemonade myself. :(

[Yw-slayer]

I don't understand why people like lemonade.

[Tom Servo]

It's very refreshing!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Lemon water is very healthy too!

[FaultyMario]

https://global.unitednations.entermediadb.net/assets/mediadb/services/module/asset/downloads/preset/Libraries/Production+Library/23-06-2021-UN-Photo-UN7898159-GA-Cuba-embargo.jpg/image1170x530cropped.jpg

A total of 184 countries on Wednesday voted in favour of a resolution to demand the end of the US economic blockade on Cuba, for the 29th year in a row, with the United States and Israel voting against. (https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/06/1094612)

[Rare White Ape]

The rest of the world should use the WMD argument: this shows how useless and pointless the UN is and we should form a coalition of countries willing to invade the USA to defend Cuba's freedom and it's democracy.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Democracy clearly is very hard thing to push to other nations… see also China.

US has also demonstrated the dangers of democracy with Trump.

Time to let it go like Elsa!

I also wonder which 3 nations abstained from voting… UK, Canada, Australia? Or 3 representatives were just out sick?

[Yw-slayer]

It's very refreshing!

So is a gin and tonic, which is less sour. :p

I suppose I did grow up with a wider range of better fruit or even vegetables to make refreshing drinks out of. Watermelon, mango, dragonfruit... man, even starfruit, carrot, and guava.

[Yw-slayer]

The rest of the world should use the WMD argument: this shows how useless and pointless the UN is and we should form a coalition of countries willing to invade the USA to defend Cuba's freedom and it's democracy.

I've basically resigned myself to the fact that I'm probably never going to be able to go to the US again. I hope Billi enjoys his freeeeleldopdmodomdmommmmm there!

[Rikadyn]

I've basically resigned myself to the fact that I'm probably never going to be able to go to the US again. I hope Billi enjoys his freeeeleldopdmodomdmommmmm there!

Not like you're missing anything.

[FaultyMario]

A 12-storey apartment building in Miami area suffers a partial collapse.

Q-types on the internet: Chinese attack!! Coverup!! Election FRAUD!!!

I have zero data to back this up, but... I'd be more willing to pursue a research line pertaining to shoddy construction practices.

[Jason]

Safety regulations have a purpose, so shit like this doesn’t happen often (or ideally ever). The fact that people want to deregulate everything in this country is terrifying.

[drew]

A 12-storey apartment building in Miami area suffers a partial collapse.

Q-types on the internet: Chinese attack!! Coverup!! Election FRAUD!!!

I have zero data to back this up, but... I'd be more willing to pursue a research line pertaining to shoddy construction practices.

My money is on sinkhole. It's a thing here.

But hey, I'm just as much a fan of crazy bullshit as the next guy.

My next guess is that AOC hid massive amounts of email servers and bamboo ballots in that building. The servers got autism from the Moderna vaccine and the building ultimately collapsed due to 5G.

[neanderthal]

My money is on sinkhole. It's a thing here.

But hey, I'm just as much a fan of crazy bullshit as the next guy.

My next guess is that AOC hid massive amounts of email servers and bamboo ballots in that building. The servers got autism from the Moderna vaccine and the building ultimately collapsed due to 5G.

Seems legit.

[neanderthal]

Safety regulations have a purpose, so shit like this doesn’t happen often (or ideally ever). The fact that people want to deregulate everything in this country is terrifying.

This infuriates me. THOSE REGULATIONS WERE PUT THERE FOR A PURPOSE.

Of course I moved to the US after the big Northridge quake, the apartment building my mum lived in was condemned, they couldn't enter or go in without fire fighters present. We couldnt get a hold of her for over a week.
So I place great value on regulations.

[Tom Servo]

So is a gin and tonic, which is less sour. :p

Well, yeah, if you're forcing me to pick one...

[drew]

Regulations = less profits.

[MR2 Fan]

Scary AF.

One America News, one of the networks that's extreme right wing even compared to Fox News, is officially calling for EXECUTION of the possibly tens of thousands of people who "overthrew" the election

https://twitter.com/aravosis/status/1408049366036844544

[drew]

100% agree. Everyone of the assholes that went into the Capitol. Hell, they even brought their own gallows.

Where's the line start?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Overthrew an election?

[MR2 Fan]

whatever you want to call it...stole the election I guess is more accurate

[FaultyMario]

100% agree. Everyone of the assholes that went into the Capitol. Hell, they even brought their own gallows.

Where's the line start?

we could have a beer and eat cake if it ever happens.

cake and beers, motherfuckers, that's right.

[FaultyMario]

The new details about how [Gen. Mark] Milley and a handful of other senior officials were forced to confront Trump's increasingly volatile behavior during the final months of his presidency only add to an already detailed portrait of dysfunction inside the White House at that time. (https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/06/24/politics/bender-book-trump-milley-protests/index.html)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4rgIVGXIAU20yw.png

[drew]

Stephen Miller is a stain on humanity, and not a good stain, like cum, more like ebola-laden diarrhea.

He's a genuinely horrible "person", that most wouldn't shed a tear if they were gone.

May his eternity in hell be constant butt-fuckings with piñatas and churro catheters.

He probably jerks off to the Challenger explosion on its anniversary every year.

[Rare White Ape]

Drew you have... a way with words.

And I miss it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The new details about how [Gen. Mark] Milley and a handful of other senior officials were forced to confront Trump's increasingly volatile behavior during the final months of his presidency only add to an already detailed portrait of dysfunction inside the White House at that time. (https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/06/24/politics/bender-book-trump-milley-protests/index.html)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4rgIVGXIAU20yw.png

It's good to know there are still sensible people within our dysfunctional government!

[George]

I think if he told me to shut up, I would.

https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/201006130844-gen-mark-milley-file-exlarge-169.jpg

[FaultyMario]

A fucking Ranger General?

Oh, shit.

[neanderthal]

Stephen Miller is a stain on humanity, and not a good stain, like cum, more like ebola-laden diarrhea.

He's a genuinely horrible "person", that most wouldn't shed a tear if they were gone.

May his eternity in hell be constant butt-fuckings with piñatas and churro catheters.

He probably jerks off to the Challenger explosion on its anniversary every year.

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel ...

Then do Trump after that. Fuck that puta.

[Crazed_Insanity]

This infuriates me. THOSE REGULATIONS WERE PUT THERE FOR A PURPOSE.

Of course I moved to the US after the big Northridge quake, the apartment building my mum lived in was condemned, they couldn't enter or go in without fire fighters present. We couldnt get a hold of her for over a week.
So I place great value on regulations.

Here's an example of stupid regulations that are not very valuable. This manual tranny 911 GT3 is banned in CA due to failing noise requirements. In reality, both auto and manual 911's sound exactly the same, just that they're tested differently. So unless this strange regulation changes or Porsche changes something, Californians will be stuck with the auto version. I also cannot believe these modern 911s are noisier than some of the Harley Davidson bikes I hear on the road...

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/california-bans-porsche-911-gt3-150000686.html

Anyway, we definitely need regulations because it's obvious profit driven companies won't regulate themselves properly. However, we need smarter regulators who know what they're doing... and not end up giving us stupid regulations or hampering certain industries for stupid reasons...

As for that Miami building... supposedly they found out that it's been sinking slightly every year... so the building might have met all previously existing codes and just need to figure out new codes for future buildings based on engineering findings... or maybe it's just not a good idea to build such tall buildings there. Hopeful they figure out the real cause...

Anyway, what a way to go, huh? Go to bed one night and then you just fall and crushed to death... there were also horror stories of Floridians being swallowed by sink hole in their own bedroom! Sometimes no amount of regulation can save us from bad luck...

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think if he told me to shut up, I would.

https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/201006130844-gen-mark-milley-file-exlarge-169.jpg

Not just shut up, but shut the fuck up!

I wonder how Steve Miller reacted...

[drew]

I think Trump is about to have his big old ass cheeks spread wide and a mile-wide indictment is going to get shoved in. I bet they're not even going to spit on it first.


I wonder when this is all done, they're going to have to change the "this trumps that" colloquialism. A la Kingpin, "I don't want to get Munson'd out here".

They should change the rules of Euchre so it's not a "trump" card. Maybe a "Vance" card? Card desk should retire the joker card, and make it the trump card. Change the picture to a gold-framed picture of a horse fucker eating a handful of shit with a gavel stuck up his ass.

[FaultyMario]

I wonder how Steve Miller reacted...

don't all accounts from his youth tell the story of a pussy-ass little beesh?

[FaultyMario]

Speaking of OPP... Chauvin got lucky, He'll be reading white supremacists fan mail for the next 22.5 years.

[Rare White Ape]

Being coddled by the friendly screws too. Life won’t be too hard for him.

Still, that’s a long time to sit and think about the mess he made.

[Rare White Ape]

If you don’t have the stomach for stories regarding rape and suicide, then you definitely don’t want to read about allegations made against Australia’s Attourney General Christian Porter about events which occurred in 1988.

Suppression orders were lifted this week over documents detailing allegations made by the victim before she died in 2020. They are quite harrowing. Yet our prime minister stands idly by and Porter still walks the halls of Parliament House. It is sickening.

[FaultyMario]

don't all accounts from his youth tell the story of a pussy-ass little beesh?

i mean, nothing against PALBs, i myself am one of those.

It really sucks that some beeshes instead of doing the internal processing, leash out against others. And the shitstains only do it when they're in a position of power.

Fuck them.

[FaultyMario]

There should be no legal reason for Assange to be tried in a court, It's all a fabrication. (https://stundin.is/grein/13627/key-witness-in-assange-case-admits-to-lies-in-indictment/)


No instruction from Assange

The court documents refer to Mr Thordarson simply as “Teenager” (a reference to his youthful appearance rather than true age, he is 28 years old) and Iceland as “NATO Country 1” but make no real effort to hide the identity of either. They purport to show that Assange instructed Thordarson to commit computer intrusions or hacking in Iceland.

The aim of this addition to the indictment was apparently to shore up and support the conspiracy charge against Assange in relation to his interactions with Chelsea Manning. Those occurred around the same time he resided in Iceland and the authors of the indictment felt they could strengthen their case by alleging he was involved in illegal activity there as well. This activity was said to include attempts to hack into the computers of members of parliament and record their conversations.

In fact, Thordarson now admits to Stundin that Assange never asked him to hack or access phone recordings of MPs. His new claim is that he had in fact received some files from a third party who claimed to have recorded MPs and had offered to share them with Assange without having any idea what they actually contained. He claims he never checked the contents of the files or even if they contained audio recordings as his third party source suggested. He further admits the claim, that Assange had instructed or asked him to access computers in order to find any such recordings, is false.

[Crazed_Insanity]

One of my major disappointments of the Trump presidency was his failure to do anything about Assange and Snowden. Guess he was just too busy trying to cover his own ass in the end…

I still liked that he didn’t drag america into any costly wars, but he certainly failed to drain any swamps. Just a selfish guy pretending to be antiestablishment, republican, and Christian.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Back to Andrew Yang, i really wasn’t paying much attention to NY mayoral race, I just found out that Yang turned down Dave Chappelle’s endorsement because he was following the advice of Bloomberg political strategists… those strategists were probably also the reason why Yang became a cheerleader for Israel..

Anyway, I think Yang obviously has lost his way. Or perhaps I’m just finally seeing the truth…

Don’t think Bernie Sanders would be the type who’d change his tune because of political strategists…

Anyway, just want to say that I’m glad Andrew Yang didn’t become the president nor the mayor based on what I know now. We certainly don’t need another unqualified inexperienced politician who try’s to say things people want to hear…

[Tom Servo]

One of my major disappointments of the Trump presidency was his failure to do anything about Assange and Snowden. Guess he was just too busy trying to cover his own ass in the end…

It is because they, like everyone else in his orbit, were only important in that he could use them to swing voters to his side. He didn't give a shit about either of them, and still doesn't.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I didn’t expect Trump to actually care for the well being of assange or Snowden, just thought perhaps they might have something that could deal a serious blow to the establishment and help him win re-election… but those 2 probably had nothing solid that’s why trump target locked only on hunter Biden instead?

[FaultyMario]

Mike Gravel, dead at 91.

[2ndMoparMan]

I'm not so sure. If he gets even close to general pop, he'll be killed. Bout the worst thing you could be in jail is a cop.

[drew]

Baby raper is probably about the same.

Either way, he'd be dead by the end of the first week if they put him in general.

[2ndMoparMan]

If that long.

[Yw-slayer]

Ah, tomorrow it'll have been 1 year of peace and quiet where I live. 1 year of freedom from Billi's moronic fascist brainwashed Trump and Pompeo-loving buddies running around burning down and destroying lots of public property, beating people up who dared to even express any dissent, and spreading fake news.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Back to NY mayoral race... luckily it was just the dem's primary, but they counted extra test ballots... you think after a few hundred years, we'd be able to count votes correctly? If Trump were involved in that election, surely everyone would not dare question the fact that the votes don't add up right! ;)

I don't really want Andrew Yang to win anymore knowing that he has becoming a guy who'd go which ever the wind blows, but I can't help but becoming more skeptical about our election integrity. What a joke.

And we want Cuba to look up to us as role model? Maybe US should sanction herself... get ourselves together 1st before we try to tell other nations what to do...

[neanderthal]

May as well pack that court. Put 21 justices on that bitch. (https://twitter.com/VP/status/1410710234713178113?s=19)

"But, if we do that Republicans will ..."
So? If they want to play dirty we must be willing to play dirty, dirty enough to stop their tomfoolery in it's tracks.

[Crazed_Insanity]

They're successful at restricting the number of voters. What makes you think they will allow more number of justices?

Even if dems are successful at lifting voting restrictions and increasing supreme court justices, will these measure alone help dems win more?

I'm not so sure.

Anyway, supreme court for sure surprised me this time...

[neanderthal]

I tried to tell you that polls don't mean shit. (https://twitter.com/chris_notcapn/status/1412576408279396353?s=19) but as usual, you needed to assuage your far left political bent.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That is a concern. Either pollsters don’t know what they’re doing or maybe elections are rigged? Either way, it’s not good.

Polls was predicting Hillary win as well right?

Whatever the reasons why poll numbers are off, it’s not good to mess with voter expectations like that. Maybe we should just stop it with the polls?

[G'day Mate]

If a poll thinks someone is twice as likely to win, they're still expecting to be wrong every third time.

[Dicknose]

Either pollsters don’t know what they’re doing or maybe elections are rigged? Either way, it’s not good.

Polls have lots of flaws, how they generate a random sample, bias in those agreeing to be polled, do people answer honestly, sometimes even how its worded.
Then you can also get polls affecting voting, especially in places where voting is optional, some people see their choice winning polls and think their vote is not needed.


Maybe we should just stop it with the polls?
"We" dont do polls, its usually the media who do it because it helps sell their media.

Here is some free advice - if you dont want, dont trust, dont like.. polls, then ignore them.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I often do ignore polls. Won’t assume that I don’t have to vote because my candidate is ahead nor give up too prematurely when my candidate lags way behind…

If I believe a candidate, I will vote for that candidate no matter what.

Even when I protest voted a 3rd party candidate, I picked somebody more inline with my stand.

Of course I’ve also skipped elections because there’s nobody I like.

[drew]

Yeah, fuck polls, they're meaningless shit.

"47% of Americans..."no, 47% of the 1988 Responders to the poll think...

47% of 1988 people is not even a fraction of a fraction of a percent.

Now, if you had 100000, 10000000 respond to something, then maybe you'd have a slight representation of the general feeling out there.

Until then, fuck off.

To me the "poll" was the election Poll. 75M people voted for insanity, 80M not.

[Rikadyn]

I believe that a poll to be within one standard deviation, it needs to have at minimum 10000

[Crazed_Insanity]

If done right, polls should be very accurate.

The fact that FOX and CNN could come up with different poll numbers shows politicization…

Likewise science and facts and everything else can be politicized too.

We can only hope actual vote counts won’t be politicized…

[2ndMoparMan]

Too easy to manipluate numbers in a poll. Don't trust em for a bit.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I guess problem with politics has became manipulation. Distrust is due to politicians/media/corporations not really serving us but manipulating us.

With that said, I find it difficult to believe Bernie Sanders,who nobody likes, has the power to actually manipulate poll numbers to show that he's ahead, but actually not.

Of course we voters can be stupid too thus easily manipulated... Some DC rioters thought they're invading the White House! Not really starting an insurrection trying to kill congressmen...

The amazingly wonderful world that we're living in...

[Tom Servo]

You're discounting the possibility of other people wanting to manipulate the numbers for someone else, whether they like them or not. It's debatable whether the Trump administration was involved with the Russian government to work on moving poll numbers and such, but it's not debatable whether or not the Russian government did that on its own. Putin is one of a few world leaders who benefit from destabilizing the US. Not saying that Bernie would destabilize the US, but what if they flooded the court with disinformation to make it seem like Bernie was more popular than he was, that feeding into the idea that the DNC is corrupt and stole the nomination away from him? You don't even have to want Bernie to win that fight if your goal is just to sow discord.

Again, not saying that that's what happened, but don't limit yourself to thinking the one whose poll numbers might be skewed is the one doing it, or even wanting it done.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Okay, I can admit that is definitely a possibility. At least to Putin, it's good for him to sow such discord in the US. The more divided we are the better. However, if Bernie were to actually win, not sure if that'll do Putin much good.

Anyway, I really think we need some sort of fact checking or info checking rating on polls of various sources. It should be easy to do. We all know what your poll is predicting and what the actual election result is... every polling place be given a rating based on % error. If you can't get within a certain percentage, you probably should be denied the right to poll anybody in the future... well, they could still practice polling I guess, but perhaps just limit their ability to publish. You can only publish your polling predictions if you get better at it or something. :p

Seriously, things are getting kinda ridiculous. It's one thing to allow freedom of speech on personal opinions and ideas, but when it comes to something more factual/scientific... we really need to hold these things to a much higher standard. In cases where we don't have all the facts or scientists aren't so sure... they should at least shut up about it or play it safe... such as just advise people to mask up or just have no advice at all and let people do what they want. Don't tell people to NOT wear masks!

[neanderthal]

Nina Turner said some shit and the votes are coming home to roost.

https://twitter.com/tify330/status/1417183649129189376?s=19

[Crazed_Insanity]

Nina Turner's lead is shrinking according to the new polls. Anti-establishment candidates really need to control their anger and not have negative ads. Just show voters what you're going to do... don't show that your anti anything. Only thing politically correct to be angry against are white males I think. Everything else we gotta tread carefully...

I predict come actual election, Nina Turner will finish 4th or last in her race just like Andrew Yang. These russian assets can only lead in fake polls. :p

[FaultyMario]

Trump was mildly amusing in WW84, when he was making people ask all those wishes in his name.

Not the jerk who is making the attendees to his rallies boo the US Women's National Team (soccer). You don't boo the national team at a finals tournament, you clown. Elimination rounds? sure. it's part of the exigency.

When will this idiot learn some fútbol etiquette?

[neanderthal]

6 Democrats voted against the $2.1B US Capitol security/ Afghan relocation bill.

Bowman NY
Bush MO
Ocasio Cortez NY
Omar MN
Pressley MA
Tlaib MI

I really don't care what their rationale was. "The squad" sucks. They're really trying very hard to be the left wing tea party; to wield outsize clout and influence on the left. I had hope for Pressley but I can't be bothered anymore.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don't know the rationale of this bill... why is it such an emergency to secure our capitol? We did our best with all available resources and our capitol was just overran by Trump supporters? Was that what happened? Problem was lack of funding?

As for Afghan relocation, why couldn't DoD pick up the tab? Like we just didn't pay them enough? The need more money to fight wars... and they need additional money to end wars... no matter what we do, they just need more money?

It'd be nice to care about people's rationale before judging them as suckers.

IMHO, our capitol was in trouble not because we don't have enough money. They chose to not spend the money to beef up security... they have the resources they needed already... so they should not be 'rewarded' with more money. Money won't solve this particular problem.

As for afghan relocation, I can sorta understand... military doesn't want to withdraw... Biden insisted... so they want Biden to pay for the extra cost.

I really don't see the need to beef up security for the Capitol. It'd truly be an emergency if the insurrectionists just overcame government's best effort. That's just not the case. A well funded capitol police simply chose to sleep on the job. Rewarding them with more money is ludicrous IMHO. If the additional money is intended to pay/compensate for injured capitol police or national guards, then I can understand.

US is burning and flooded all over... those are true emergencies. I really don't think our Capitol is in any danger.

[Tom Servo]

As for afghan relocation, I can sorta understand... military doesn't want to withdraw... Biden insisted... so they want Biden to pay for the extra cost.

Just to clarify, this is budget to relocate the Afghan citizens who helped the US military (translators and such). They were promised visas to come to the US, and are under threat from the Taliban now that the US military is pulling out. The bill allocates $1 billion for the relocation of those citizens to the US.

[FaultyMario]

Did the bill have enough votes to pass without the squad?

Were there amendments that the party leadership did not allow to be written into the bill or some that were forced into it that the squad opposed?

Clearing that up explains the stance that these congresspersons took.

[Tom Servo]

Oh yeah, it passed overwhelmingly, 416-11. For whatever reason, I don't see much of any indication on why they voted against it, which is surprising. The only thing I could find was some far-right article just talking about what horrible people they are, no actual reasoning.

[neanderthal]

Just to clarify, this is budget to relocate the Afghan citizens who helped the US military (translators and such). They were promised visas to come to the US, and are under threat from the Taliban now that the US military is pulling out. The bill allocates $1 billion for the relocation of those citizens to the US.

Them and their families.
If/ when we abandon our allies and leave them to their fate, we lose the capability of recruiting locals to interpret/ guide/ grease the whhels/etc in the future. As someone who is very anti American imperialism,i'm ok with that; we shouldn'gt be involving ourselves with other peoples shit. But im a big believer in keeping your word, ... so we owe these translators and guides and their families. They took a great risk working with us.

[neanderthal]

Oh yeah, it passed overwhelmingly, 416-11. For whatever reason, I don't see much of any indication on why they voted against it, which is surprising. The only thing I could find was some far-right article just talking about what horrible people they are, no actual reasoning.

Defund the police.


“I am tired of the fact that any time where there is a failure in our system of policing, the first response is for us to give them more money, rather than investigate the failings and hold those responsible accountable,” Omar told The Intercept, explaining her vote. “I’ll continue to fight for structural change that actually centers people’s safety and humanity. That applies to us here in the Capitol, as well as my constituents in Minneapolis.”

Source. (https://theintercept.com/2021/05/20/squad-capitol-police-funding-pressley-aoc-omar/)

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think Omar's reasoning is pretty legit. 2008 financial crisis. Wall Street fucked it up. What's our solution? Print and give them more money.

Now, I'm not an advocate of defunding police, that's stupid thing to do. We have been militarizing our police... and I'm pretty sure lack of funding was NOT the reason why the Capitol was overran... to throw more money at it won't really solve the problem. If the insurrectionists were black, you will be able to see how militarized the Capitol police really is. There will be no need for national guards.

As for the visas for the Afghans... why shouldn't the military be responsible to take care of that? When you are useful, we used you. When you're no longer needed..., fuck off you stupid translators. Go talk to uncle Sam for help. We don't need you anymore. We don't care if Taliban kills you and your family. Not our problem. DoD is only responsible for creating wars.

Anyway, I think that's how we end up creating monsters like Bin Laden and Hussein. When they're enemy of our enemies, we pretend to befriend them. When we have no more use for them, we stop give a fuck about them. I wonder why they keep on fighting us.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just to clarify, this is budget to relocate the Afghan citizens who helped the US military (translators and such). They were promised visas to come to the US, and are under threat from the Taliban now that the US military is pulling out. The bill allocates $1 billion for the relocation of those citizens to the US.

Anyway, somebody in the US should take care of these people. If DoD doesn't care or really doesn't have the resources, then uncle Sam does need to step in. It's the right thing to do.

I kinda doubt AOC and the gang were really against this.

Surely capitol police doesn't really need this emergency billions of $$$.

Capitol was not secured because of other reasons.

[Tom Servo]

To an extent, I can agree with that. I think it's very much on the safe side, it's "this will pass without us, so we can run with the 'defund the police creds'", but I 100% agree with them that we tend to reflexively give a bunch more money to the police in these situations and tend not to dial them back over time (TSA, anyone?)

I also feel like there were plenty of mistakes leading to 1/6 that more money won't necessarily fix. There was plenty of warning what was coming but it wasn't taken seriously enough, and then Trump delayed mobilizing the national guard. I don't think more money going to them is necessarily a good thing, and it sucks that that got tied into the same bill as delivering our allies to somewhere they'll be safe.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It is mind boggling why law makers can’t make it 2 separate bills or what’s the rationale for combining the two?

Nobody wants to vote on either issues, but after they’re combined, only the dumbass Russian assets would vote against it?

[MR2 Fan]

unrelated to other current discussions above, I'm hoping Joe Biden is healthy for another few years because I don't think Kamala Harris is going to be a good candidate for the next election. I don't think she's winning people over very well so far

[Crazed_Insanity]

Neanderthal loves her though. Surely he’ll be able to tell you why our nation needs her.

[Rikadyn]

Neanderthal loves her though. Surely he’ll be able to tell you why our nation needs her.

While regurgitating every smear from fox on Aoc no less.

Meanwhile we see Manchin dedication to Republicans bipartisanship

https://truthout.org/articles/manchin-donated-to-defense-fund-of-republican-investigated-for-insider-trading/

[Crazed_Insanity]

Showing his true color!

Still, we need to work with republican assets in order to get rid of Russian assets 1st I guess.

It’s so funny foreigners places so many assets inside the dnc establishment! No wonder they’re so rich! :D

[JSGeneral]

Lindsey Graham has Covid. Said he is happy to have received the vaccine because he's certain his symptoms would of been worse. So he's a breakout case.

LINK (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/very-glad-i-was-vaccinated-gop-sen-lindsey-graham-tests-n1275739)


(TIL that he actually got the vaccine!)

[Rikadyn]

And he was at a party on Manchin's houseboat...

[neanderthal]

Saw on twitter that both Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman were very opinionated about Biden extending the eviction moratorium. Have I mentioned I detest "the squad?" (i'm pretty sure I have the original squad members blocked.)

SCOTUS ruled that Biden couldn't. So thank everyone that didn't vote for Madam Secretary, which allowed the former guy to install 3 Supreme Court justices.

And, by the way, either/ both of them could have written the legislation when SCOTUS made that ruling, since SCOTUS said only Congress could do that. I hate the squads performative shit; go write some legislation and get it passed instead of whining to the media.

[neanderthal]

Saw on twitter that both Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman were very opinionated about Biden extending the eviction moratorium. Have I mentioned I detest "the squad?" (i'm pretty sure I have the original squad members blocked.)

SCOTUS ruled that Biden couldn't. So thank everyone that didn't vote for Madam Secretary, which allowed the former guy to install 3 Supreme Court justices.

And, by the way, either/ both of them could have written the legislation when SCOTUS made that ruling, since SCOTUS said only Congress could do that. I hate the squads performative shit; go write some legislation and get it passed instead of whining to the media.

Shot.

Chaser (https://twitter.com/frankthorp/status/1422332401796227074?s=19)

[neanderthal]

While regurgitating every smear criticism from fox Democratic voters on Aoc no less


Fixed that for you.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just out of curiosity, if it's between AOC and Joe Manchin for a public office in your district, who would you choose to represent the DNC? And Why?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Let me answer my own question 1st. Of course I'd choose AOC because clearly she is way more DEMOCRATIC than Joe Manchin on pretty much every issues. I think AOC is even a bit too left for me; however, for sure Joe Manchin is just a Republican... not only that, he is part of the republican establishment. You know that by who he associate himself with... AOC is just more representative of common voters!

I'm anti-establishment 1st... because I believe regardless of political ideology, excessive money and power tend to corrupt. Between the 2 parties, I'd prefer the DNC over the GOP based on issues; however, I tend to believe the establishment is already in full control of both parties. All these political fights are essentially just a show to distract us voters...

Unless we find ways to stop the rich from influencing our politicians, I think we will continue to be stuck like this... in time, even AOC will become another Nancy Pelosi I think... because that's the pragmatic thing to do.

So maybe one way to reduce such influences is to make sure we don't have career politicians? Seriously, why do we need Bernie Sanders in the senate for this long to do absolutely nothing? ;) Seriously, I think Bernie is like Frodo. It's not often to find a person with such unwavering integrity. Preaching the same message from the beginning and probably til the end of his career.

[neanderthal]

Nina Turner. Fail.

Her who said of Biden "if you're offered a bowl of shit and half of it had already been eaten, so you don't have to eat the whole thing, you're still being offered shit."
AOC and uncle grandpa couldn't get her over the line. And I'm ok with that.

[Jason]

It's been a minute since I've check in to this thread, and hey it's Mo and Billi fighting about pretty minor differences within the Democratic party, glad to see some things never change. Keep it up you two! <3

At the end of the day, both moderates and progressives have expressed interest in extending the eviction moratorium, or providing some other source of assistance. Moderates want it done through Congress because that's what SCOTUS said, Progressives get frustrated because nothing can go through Congress with Republicans existing, so they want the Executive Branch to be more aggressive.

Dems fighting with each other while Republicans look on in glee like Mister fucking Burns.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Don't forget congress couldn't get things done thanks to folks like Manchin. Of course, we do have to thank Manchin for pretending to be a dem so that dems can have a majority.

Personally, I don't believe differences between dems and folks like Joe Manchin are that minor. Of course I understand Manchin isn't really a 'moderate', but way to the right! Still, it does appear that Biden is more willing to give in to people like Manchin rather Sanders. I do believe Biden should take on a more aggressive or stronger stand. I dunno, maybe I'm too biased, but that's just how I see it. Maybe Biden is just nice to him because he's a DINO and thankful that he gave dems the majority..., but as 'pragmatic' as that is, it's just kinda lame. We shouldn't need these type of fake politicians around. What's the point of having a majority in name only? What's the point of having a bunch of representatives... not really representing the people? Hey, we gotta be pragmatic... this is how we get it done... blah blah blah... sure, look at what we have accomplished so far. Are we proud of ourselves? Progressives exist because moderates have been too weak. I understand moderates are pissed off because it feels like the progressives are dragging them down..., but hey, GOP has the tea party wing... and Trumpists. It's not like they are totally and completely unified. Yet, they've achieved much more than the liberals. Something to think about.

Moderates refuse to admit that they done anything wrong... that they're only lousy because Sanders and AOC wouldn't shut the fuck up. Is that really true? If our differences are so 'minor', why couldn't we just agree and unify together so that we can beat the conservatives? I don't really know at this point. I can only thank God for Covid so that we could actually get rid of Trump. I still think Trump could've easily wont reelection without Covid...

Lastly, at least within this thread, it's Neanderthal constantly whining about AOC. Otherwise, I really had little motivation to post in this thread lately. I'm actually satisfied with Biden at the moment.

[neanderthal]

It's been a minute since I've check in to this thread, and hey it's Mo and Billi fighting about pretty minor differences within the Democratic party, glad to see some things never change. Keep it up you two! <3

At the end of the day, both moderates and progressives have expressed interest in extending the eviction moratorium, or providing some other source of assistance. Moderates want it done through Congress because that's what SCOTUS said, Progressives get frustrated because nothing can go through Congress with Republicans existing, so they want the Executive Branch to be more aggressive.

Dems fighting with each other while Republicans look on in glee like Mister fucking Burns.


Eh, ... i'm mostly ignoring him.

As to; If it's not done properly the Supreme Court will strike it down. It's that simple.

And the former guy put three Supreme Court justices on that bitch. If only fewer people had voted third party in 2016...

Speaking of which, those that same people person bett'not be complaining about this eviction moratorium. The ballot was LITERALLY in their his hands ...

[neanderthal]

I keep telling you guys about what I'm seeing on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/WonderKing82/status/1422970003129831425?s=19

Can't accept that their chosen candidate lost, so they've resorted to the trumpian "we were cheated."

A lot of us are now saying when they say Khive, they mean "the darkies."

[neanderthal]

It needed to be said.

https://twitter.com/WonderKing82/status/1423031992048922634?s=19

[neanderthal]

Sigh ...

Like the try says, "who's they?"

https://twitter.com/BidenHarrisBro/status/1423034074654859265?s=19

[Jason]

I keep telling you guys about what I'm seeing on Twitter.


Well there’s your problem.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes, just because it's on twitter, don't make everything they say true. Whether its BernieBro or YangGang... if they truly represent majority of the people, they would've won the election by now. The fact that they could NOT win means one of 2 things: 1) it's only a minority of folks yapping about it on twitter... or 2) perhaps they are really true that they were cheated.

You cannot take both options. If they are just a minority, you need to ignore them like you are doing Billi. If they are truly the majority, then the moderate establishment is actually screwing with them so they're right to be upset.

Seriously, we don't need to know every single tweet. Only Trumpians rely on twitter.

[G'day Mate]

I cannot believe some of the stuff that's come out over the last few days about letters drafted by people in the DOJ to be sent to states looking for an excuse to reject their election results. You guys came so close to having the election overturned. Holy moly.

[FaultyMario]

The Crypto AG stuff is also fascinating. It's like taking exams with a cheat sheet for 40 years.

[Crazed_Insanity]

DOJ under pressure to find evidence of election fraud and couldn’t find any!

Glad to know that whatever integrity our government has left, it was enough to avoid a complete collapse! I’d thank God!

[21Kid]

Well there’s your problem.

Exactly.

[G'day Mate]

Glad to know that whatever integrity our government has left, it was enough to avoid a complete collapse!

I think Trump chose juuuuuust the wrong guy as acting AG in the last few weeks.

[Tom Servo]

Andrew Cuomo resigns, effective in 14 days. In two weeks, NY will have its first woman governor.

[Crazed_Insanity]

He looked so commanding and effective during the beginning of the pandemic…

Anyway, I have less sympathy for him than Al Franken. Al for sure resigned too early, but Andrew resigned a bit late…

[Jason]

I haven’t looked at what’s in the bill specifically, but it looks like an Infrastructure Bill passed the Senate finally. Now it goes on to the House, where I assume both Progressives, and far right Conservatives will take issue with something in it, and it’ll go through the usual debates again before Pelosi wrangles the cats and gets it passed.

It’s nice to see something pass with bipartisan support for once. Even if its not to everyone’s ideals (my assumption)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Bipartisan is good. If things haven’t being shifting ever slightly to the right, I’d probably not give any progressives the time of day.

It is kinda sad to not only see Neanderthal and Billi fighting, but to actually see moderate dems and progressives fighting and each blame the other while GOP reaps all the benefits… :(

[neanderthal]

I haven’t looked at what’s in the bill specifically, but it looks like an Infrastructure Bill passed the Senate finally. Now it goes on to the House, where I assume both Progressives, and far right Conservatives will take issue with something in it, and it’ll go through the usual debates again before Pelosi wrangles the cats and gets it passed.

It’s nice to see something pass with bipartisan support for once. Even if its not to everyone’s ideals (my assumption)

Nothing will ever be to anyone's ideals anymore. I don't see it getting better soon. And I forsee deeper fissures between the political arm of the progressive movement and Democrats too. You can see it by the rancour post election; i've seen little commendation/ positive feedback from progressives on the election of Shontel Brown, who was Nina Turner's principal opponent in that primary, for instance. I have seen corporate sellout, etc though.

I, the so called enemy of the progressives on this board, at least want their candidates to do well in congress and pass meaningful legisltion. So much for pragmatism.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I have seen corporate sellout, etc though.



Where do you see that?

[Jason]

Nothing will ever be to anyone's ideals anymore. I don't see it getting better soon. And I forsee deeper fissures between the political arm of the progressive movement and Democrats too. You can see it by the rancour post election; i've seen little commendation/ positive feedback from progressives on the election of Shontel Brown, who was Nina Turner's principal opponent in that primary, for instance. I have seen corporate sellout, etc though.

I, the so called enemy of the progressives on this board, at least want their candidates to do well in congress and pass meaningful legisltion. So much for pragmatism.

Pragmatism happens behind closed doors, public negotiation/statements are definitely rife with uh hot takes haha

[FaultyMario]

Boomshakalaka! McGee is on fire!

[neanderthal]

:| (https://twitter.com/neoliberal_dad/status/1425295947177893890?s=19) <<<url


What a fucked up world we live in.

[Jason]

Preach

[2ndMoparMan]

Now what?

[FaultyMario]

Hold hands, sing kumbaya, wait for asteroid.

[Rare White Ape]

Now what?

Maybe these posts are just a general yelling at clouds moment?

[Jason]

Astroid/Plague 2024 please

[Tom Servo]

Anybody else pay any attention to Mike Lindell's Cyber Symposium? Train wreck does not even remotely do it justice.

[Jason]

Is that the one where he dipped out as soon as news hit about a lawsuit or something?

[Tom Servo]

Yep, right when news came through that a judge was allowing Dominion's lawsuit against him, Sydney Powell, and others to go forward.

It'll take me a bit to write up something doing it justice. There was a county clerk from Colorado who may have stolen hard drives from voting machines, the serial grifter who was supposed to deliver the "absolute proof" package captures who had "a stroke" right before the event, a notoriously right-wing rag breaking a story on day two that Lindell's main "cyber expert" says that they have no proof and everything is garbage, random duck noises, a touchy-pervy host, regular paranoia about the non-present antifa...there was a lot.

[George]

Hold hands, sing kumbaya, wait for asteroid.


Astroid/Plague 2024 please

I'll take Climate Wars to block.

[HondaKid86]

It's humiliating that foreigners are so knowledgeable about the nuances and depths of the illness of our Republic.

G'day knows what the DOJ is, understands how it nearly failed us and sees just how close we were to becoming an autocracy. Anytime my friends in Sweden or Germany or even Canada know the extent and intricacies of our problems, it fills me with shame.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It’s just much harder to see clearly when we get so comfy in our bubbles. Further, it’s just much harder to see our own shortcomings than others.

We’ll just have to somehow utilize that shame to motivate us to be better…

Conservatives are fellow Americans. We have to find ways to bridge our gaps. We don’t have the luxury of large bodies of water buffering them like Australians and Sweden and Germany… as for the Canadians, oh well, sucks to be them. We’re like Mexico to them. ;)

[FaultyMario]

Californians, dudes, what the fuck is going on? first the Gavin recall and now the proudboys, come on!

https://static.highsnobiety.com/thumbor/YNA8w5NOFJf5kaWXM__5oCm63Uc=/fit-in/960x640/smart/static.highsnobiety.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/30182418/mac-miller-00.jpg

Keep your shit to ge ther!

[Tom Servo]

It's a big state, and that means we've got a lot of fuckheads mixed in here with us normies.

[HondaKid86]

Conservatives are fellow Americans. We have to find ways to bridge our gaps.

Oh, yes, bridge build with white supremacists and Nazis.

FOH.

We must shame them into pariahs and ostracize them from polite society.

It's now a matter of life and death. How much farther are we going to let it go?

[Crazed_Insanity]

I won’t bother negotiating or befriend nazis, I seriously don’t believe all conservatives are nazis though.

Not all conservatives were insurrectionists and not all insurrectionists even knew what they were doing or going.

Our fellow Americans are more ignorant than evil imho.

Now, if they refuse to mask up and vaccinate and if hospitals just can’t handle it anymore, then I guess we’ll just have to let them go…

[neanderthal]

If you have ten people in one room, and one of them says some racist shit, and nobody says anything, then you have ten racists in the room.

You can substitute racist with sexist, etc.

Shouldn't have to be said, but since you're apologising for them i'll assume you're one of them.

It dovetails with your racist screeds in the past.

[MR2 Fan]

My un-educated perception of Afghanistan:

Before Russia invaded - not a great place to live, full of regional tribes and warlords
During Russia invasion - lots of other issues with the invasion, America supports taliban "Freedom fighters"
After Russia invasion pushed back - Afghanistan goes back to taliban and warlord rule
During U.S. invasion - Afghanistan is at war for 20 years
After U.S. leaves - Afghanistan goes back to taliban and warlord rule

I just don't see what would make the situation better :|

[Rare White Ape]

They tried to install democracy and freedom in Afghanistan.

What they really needed was capitalism.

This post was a cynical joke, in case you missed it.

[FaultyMario]

It'd be wise to question why the regular folk in Afghanistan choose to be ruled by local tribal heads.

Their agency might be reduced, but they are not people without volition.

[G'day Mate]

G'day knows what the DOJ is, understands how it nearly failed us and sees just how close we were to becoming an autocracy. Anytime my friends in Sweden or Germany or even Canada know the extent and intricacies of our problems, it fills me with shame.

Yeah but your stuff is interesting, so I know a lot more about the US politics than I do Australian even.

[Tom Servo]

My un-educated perception of Afghanistan:

Before Russia invaded - not a great place to live, full of regional tribes and warlords
During Russia invasion - lots of other issues with the invasion, America supports taliban "Freedom fighters"
After Russia invasion pushed back - Afghanistan goes back to taliban and warlord rule
During U.S. invasion - Afghanistan is at war for 20 years
After U.S. leaves - Afghanistan goes back to taliban and warlord rule

I just don't see what would make the situation better :|

I'm in a similar boat. I honestly think we've fucked up so badly there for the past 20 years that there was no good out. This is a massive disaster, but George W., Obama, Trump, and Biden all share some blame. Honestly, Trump probably shares the least of it, but he's not blameless either.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I still say it’s the ‘establishment’ having control of US politicians in a bipartisan way, protecting their own interests globally as if it’s the same as US interests.

Trump is supposedly the antiestablishment president that’s why he shared the least responsibility…

Anyway I’m just glad Biden has the balls to really pull out.

America seeking justice is one thing, but you can’t be carrying out justice for decades with no exit strategy in mind. Forever wars benefits no one other than the establishment.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If you have ten people in one room, and one of them says some racist shit, and nobody says anything, then you have ten racists in the room.

You can substitute racist with sexist, etc.

Shouldn't have to be said, but since you're apologising for them i'll assume you're one of them.

It dovetails with your racist screeds in the past.

I’d say you’re way more racist than I am.

It’s the same kind the crap you always hear from some liberals… ‘I can’t tolerate intolerant people!’

It’s like yeah, we embrace diversity, but only if you believe in the same thing we believe in. If you don’t believe in the same ideology, then we reserve the right to discriminate against you because you deserve it.

What does diversity really mean to you? What does tolerance mean?

[Tom Servo]

It’s the same kind the crap you always hear from some liberals… ‘I can’t tolerate intolerant people!’

The paradox of tolerance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) is a thing.

[FaultyMario]

https://storage.googleapis.com/afs-prod/media/4389c5ff13df4ab6821ae8081479905b/800.jpeg

“We had, actually, a very good talk with the leader of the Taliban.” (https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-ap-top-news-afghanistan-politics-united-states-e142c8d18406fb270ccb2c0cb0872a0a)

Yeah, mmm... well... No, I think they played you

[George]

My un-educated perception of Afghanistan:

Before Russia invaded - not a great place to live, full of regional tribes and warlords
During Russia invasion - lots of other issues with the invasion, America supports taliban "Freedom fighters"
After Russia invasion pushed back - Afghanistan goes back to taliban and warlord rule
During U.S. invasion - Afghanistan is at war for 20 years
After U.S. leaves - Afghanistan goes back to taliban and warlord rule

I just don't see what would make the situation better :|

It looks bad for the USA right now, just like the Fall of Saigon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Saigon), but this was the right thing to do.

I would like to see a return to non-interventionalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-interventionism). We have enough problems to solve here at home.

[FaultyMario]

Come on, George! won't you think of the children¹?

__________
¹ The children of Raytheon executives.

[Tom Servo]

GOP Quietly Scrubs Webpage Detailing Trump's 'Historic Peace Agreement With the Taliban' (https://gizmodo.com/gop-quietly-scrubs-webpage-detailing-trumps-historic-pe-1847492947)

[FaultyMario]

Hard to fault the Biden administration. This is a failure of the U.S. government. If the mood wasn't so divisive, it should be a good time for a special senate committee to review and evaluate government policy and actions.

Let's forget about the ethics and the morals for a moment, whatever happened here is systemic, and that needs to be evaluated with an eye on the future. It is unsustainable for the U.S. of A. to engage in these... commitments.

[Jason]

Only thing surprising about all this is that it took hours instead of days/weeks. We were there for 20 years and made zero dent in the ideology of men there. Wouldn’t have mattered if it was Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, or whomever is next, same result. So yeah, it sucks, but it’s whatever, it’s time.

[Tom Servo]

That and it's reasonably clear that all the times we were told about how much the Taliban had been weakened were total nonsense.

[Rare White Ape]

Do you guys remember that time when the Orange Man wanted to be a politician one day, so the American people went along with it and voted him in as president, hahaha! And we all took him seriously for a while and he did things and sat at a desk and signed important documents and met other dignitaries and saluted the troops and wore an American flag pin on his lapel and many other things, until it all ended, beautifully, on a sweaty November afternoon out the front of Four Seasons Landscaping in Holmesburg, PA?

Yeah, that’s the man who brought McPeace to Afghanistan.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That and it's reasonably clear that all the times we were told about how much the Taliban had been weakened were total nonsense.

I get the feeling somebody is messing with Biden to make him look bad for pulling out.

Of course, whenever I blame somebody, I blame the ‘establishment’.

Hey, since I can sell weapons to the US military, I’ll sell to Taliban!

Lastly, a nation needs to build itself. US really shouldn’t be in the business of building nations. Especially when we start building and then have zero plans on when to leave.

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, there obviously is and was always going to be some bad faith usage of it as political capital. The thing is, a lot of those stories about how we had the Taliban on the run and they were no longer a real threat came from the Obama administration. This isn't just recent stuff from people trying to make Biden look bad.

While it started under the Bush administration, Biden voted as a Senator for the "Authorization for Use of Military Force" and was Vice President for eight years of the conflict. I do think pulling out was a call that had to be made and that there would never be a good time to do it, but it's not as if he just wandered in as President into a conflict that he has no prior history with.

[Dicknose]

Oh, yes, bridge build with white supremacists and Nazis.

FOH.

We must shame them into pariahs and ostracize them from polite society.

It's now a matter of life and death. How much farther are we going to let it go?

I agree in part.
There are some who are too far gone. But they are hopefully a minority even in these racist groups.
I suspect that many more are just people feeling lost and this is something that makes them feel wanted and with purpose - no matter how bad that purpose is. These are the ones that can be helped and brought back into society.
The hard core one - yeah fuck em.

As neanderthal says in his post - call out their shit and show them that they aren't part of some silent majority.
Cutting off/bringing back the fringe of the crowd will make a difference.

[Rare White Ape]

Dicknose: it's happening in Australia. These people are potentially losing their jobs :up:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/crown-launches-urgent-investigation-into-employee-identified-as-neo-nazi-20210816-p58j3m.html?fbclid=IwAR0J63kLJwZV8uaUTi4sczGCMKRBT 1lD7BaqF0tT3gbN0M4-fi7PIDqUBy8

And also:


𝗠𝗶𝗱𝗳𝗶𝗲𝗹𝗱 𝗠𝗲𝗮𝘁 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗸𝗲𝗿 𝘀𝘁𝗼𝗼𝗱 𝗱𝗼𝘄𝗻 𝗼𝘃𝗲𝗿 𝗰𝗹𝗮𝗶𝗺𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗪𝗮𝗿𝗿𝗻𝗮𝗺𝗯𝗼𝗼𝗹 𝗺𝗮𝗻 𝗵𝗮𝗱 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗸𝘀 𝘁𝗼 𝗻𝗲𝗼-𝗡𝗮𝘇𝗶 𝗴𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗽
The Standard
AUGUST 16 2021
A Warrnambool worker who had alleged links to a neo-Nazi group has been stood down by Midfield Meat following the airing of an investigation into their activities.
The joint investigation by The Age and 60 Minutes claims Midfield worker Vinnie O'Neill, a man aged in his 20s, had ties to the group.
The activities of the group were brought into the spotlight in January when reports of men wearing neo-Nazi T-shirts were seen in a cave in the Grampians doing the Nazi salute.
Midfield Meats' Dean McKenna said he was made aware of the allegations at 4.30am on Monday. He said the employee had worked at Midfield Meat for a couple of months and had now been stood down pending further investigation into whether the program's allegations against him were accurate.
"I do not condone racism," Mr McKenna said.
Mr O'Neill was contacted for comment.

Both are linked to this investigation:
https://www.theage.com.au/national/inside-racism-hq-how-home-grown-neo-nazis-are-plotting-a-white-revolution-20210812-p58i3x.html?fbclid=IwAR3nGDwAnEqyUMHVlcCvNZuLWUHqJ usFy18I1tgFCrALdZARN-Sfg4OoDiM

[neanderthal]

I'm in a similar boat. I honestly think we've fucked up so badly there for the past 20 years that there was no good out. This is a massive disaster, but George W., Obama, Trump, and Biden all share some blame. Honestly, Trump probably shares the least of it, but he's not blameless either.

I disagree on Trump sharing the least of it as HE ... "negotiated" :twitch: the release of the person who is now heading the Taliban.
Otherwise, hands tied or not, they are all responsible.

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, I wrote that before I was reminded about that negotiation. I'm still of the opinion that the situation was already a clusterfuck anyway due to the Bush and Obama administrations (I like Obama, but that's one of the parts of his administration I'm the most disappointed about), and this would still be just as much of a clusterfuck even if Trump hadn't done that. I would definitely assign more blame now to Trump than I did when I wrote that yesterday.

That said, the sheer hypocrisy of those criticizing the way we're pulling out while ignoring that Trump promised to do that his entire term and never actually managed to do it is pretty astounding.

[Rare White Ape]

So this is, what? Day four since Trump's reinstatement as president?

Not a good start to a term.

[FaultyMario]

they are all responsible.

Systematic failure of American government. Lies were concocted, policy was carried out based on such falsehoods, program evaluations had to reconcile lies with project failures and viceversa, lies were believed. Rinse, repeat.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I agree in part.
There are some who are too far gone. But they are hopefully a minority even in these racist groups.
I suspect that many more are just people feeling lost and this is something that makes them feel wanted and with purpose - no matter how bad that purpose is. These are the ones that can be helped and brought back into society.
The hard core one - yeah fuck em.

As neanderthal says in his post - call out their shit and show them that they aren't part of some silent majority.
Cutting off/bringing back the fringe of the crowd will make a difference.

What are we to do with folks who are ‘too far gone’?

The only thing left to do is to exterminate them. Pretending that they don’t exist or shaming them won’t do much good.

Once we become an exterminator, don’t we become just like them?

This is why I don’t like the ideology of ‘don’t tolerate those who are intolerant’.

I do believe everyone could change, and real lasting change won’t come from outside shaming or superior fire power, people will have to make that decision on the inside willfully somehow.

Racists are blinded by something, I honestly don’t think shaming works. At most racists act more politically correctly in fear of shaming… but whenever someone like Trump come to power, then revert back and over compensate…

I’d prefer to not live in a fake politically correct society, I’d rather people just live correctly and have nothing to fear or feel ashamed of…

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, there obviously is and was always going to be some bad faith usage of it as political capital. The thing is, a lot of those stories about how we had the Taliban on the run and they were no longer a real threat came from the Obama administration. This isn't just recent stuff from people trying to make Biden look bad.

While it started under the Bush administration, Biden voted as a Senator for the "Authorization for Use of Military Force" and was Vice President for eight years of the conflict. I do think pulling out was a call that had to be made and that there would never be a good time to do it, but it's not as if he just wandered in as President into a conflict that he has no prior history with.

Yeah, that is what I found odd.

Biden isn’t a clueless new guy.

I was not expecting him to really pull out… I also wasn’t expecting Taliban to be in so much control.

Anyway, whatever the reason or whoever is the mastermind hidden behind the scene… or perhaps US govt is just amazingly incompetent…

I’m just glad we’re outta there.

From Vietnam to Iraq to this…

Our government is just incapable of learning I guess.

Nation building… try rebuild our own nation please… or go build something on the moon or Mars! Leave other nations alone!

[neanderthal]

Greg Abbott has covid!!!

Karma do your thing ...

[mk]

Systematic failure of American government.

I'm guite some time wondered how incompetent they really are.
Maybe they are just publicly lying so much that they look like total idiots.

It's generally pretty hard to believe that Trump dumbs are still steering, even at lower level.

E,
spelling

[neanderthal]

Systematic failure of American government. Lies were concocted, policy was carried out based on such falsehoods, program evaluations had to reconcile lies with project failures and viceversa, lies were believed. Rinse, repeat.

You're leaving out the press that was complicit in the whole thing. Like they were complicit in the former guys presidency by not questioning him/ his press officer, like they didn't bother to with the vaccine agnostic during the current crisis.

We. DONT. want. another. profile. of. anti-. vaxxers.

Or fucking Trump voters.

[neanderthal]

I'm quite OK with anti vaxxers dying of covid. (https://twitter.com/Avonan/status/1428363978267185161?t=Xt6tRj_Yhs1aL8iG_HwRvA&s=19)

One of the few times I cheer for the grim reaper.

[neanderthal]

I'm quite OK with anti vaxxers dying of covid. (https://twitter.com/Avonan/status/1428363978267185161?t=Xt6tRj_Yhs1aL8iG_HwRvA&s=19)

One of the few times I cheer for the grim reaper.

So, what's for dinner? (https://www.thedailybeast.com/missouri-lawmaker-sara-walshs-unvaccinated-husband-dies-from-covid-19?via=twitter_page)

[neanderthal]

Maybe insurance companies will save us. (https://twitter.com/larry_levitt/status/1428367107348070418?t=AmMr98yj7DaiemvWWBA8OA&s=19)

[neanderthal]

I have mentioned I don't like "the squad," right?!?!? (https://twitter.com/RabbiPoupko/status/1428381239011119110?t=tHozDhNR8F3-yIV06EtlxA&s=19)

[FaultyMario]

Crazies, more crazies, the crazies everywhere!

[Rikadyn]

But love conservative talk radio and fox news...

[Rare White Ape]

Essential viewing.


https://youtu.be/QsBqU1RzV7o

[Jason]

I'm quite OK with anti vaxxers dying of covid. (https://twitter.com/Avonan/status/1428363978267185161?t=Xt6tRj_Yhs1aL8iG_HwRvA&s=19)

One of the few times I cheer for the grim reaper.

https://reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward

[Rare White Ape]

Oh that's... brutal.

And I'm here for it.

[neanderthal]

https://reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward

I'm here for it!! Schadenhowevertheheckyouspellitfruade is delicious with cognac after a hearty meal.

[Cam]

Savage.

[MR2 Fan]

so 2 terrorist attacks happened in Kabul...supposedly by ISIS today.

I'm trying to figure out their motive. The U.S. is actively leaving...If they're anti-U.S. being in the "muslim world" they should let them continue. If they are anti-Taliban they should have waited until we're completely out of the country then they can fight the taliban separately and the U.S. "won't care"

[Crazed_Insanity]

My guess is the establishment isn’t happy with Biden not giving them the opportunity to sell more weapons in a forever war so they’re helping the terrorists to make Biden look bad.

I can think of no other reasonable motives…

[MR2 Fan]

I started to wonder if the Russians are funding ISIS...wouldn't doubt it at all at this point

[neanderthal]

The Supreme Court proves, once again, that elections matter, that voting has consequences.

[FaultyMario]

I started to wonder if the Russians are funding ISIS...wouldn't doubt it at all at this point

The Taliban is a (mostly Pashtun) military organization which seeks to organize the government of Afghanistan around the Customary law of Pashtunwali, the traditional way of life of Central Asian tribes.

The Islamic State (of Syria and the Levant) is militant group of Arab-speaking people from middle eastern countries, which was, at some point, a satellite organization of Al-Qaeda. During the invasion of Iraq, it was basically the Iraqi branch of Al-Qaeda, but as their commanders where successively downed by coalition forces, their leadership wheel of fortune of Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians stopped on Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. Since the early 2010s, IS moved in into the Syrian clusterfuck and in 2014, al-Baghdadi declared himself as the Caliph, that is, the supreme leader of all Muslim States. IS is the enemy of pretty much everybody.

And as the saying goes, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", any actor that is the enemy of the United States, or of The Taliban, or of Syria, or of Iran could be supporting IS.

It is a mess.

[FaultyMario]

That said, I hope, the U.S. Government deals with these terrorists like the criminals they are: with swift police action.

It would be a new mistake to think of them as "the enemy".

[Crazed_Insanity]

when the storm troopers are already retreating, it really makes no sense for the rebel alliance to continue to attack or provoking them to fight back. It's not like these last attacks would severely cripple the 'evil empire'...

Obviously somebody else has some other motives.

Somebody is trying to make Biden look like a Bernie Sanders... trying to make him look bad for doing the right thing.

These latest set backs won't really hurt US much, but would hurt then Biden Admin very much. At the moment I support Biden as if he's Sanders. Wonder how Neanderthal feels about that. ;)

[Crazed_Insanity]

The Supreme Court proves, once again, that elections matter, that voting has consequences.

We know that. You've told us that many times.

Now, what are your thoughts regarding pulling out of Afghanistan? Was that a pragmatic move Biden made?

[Jason]

The Supreme Court proves, once again, that elections matter, that voting has consequences.
Congress needs to step up on this, because frankly laws shouldn't be made by the EO.

Unfortunately Congress can't agree on shit, so... Yeah.

Hopefully states can get rental assistance out, otherwise this is really going to suck for a lot of people.

[Jason]

On Afghanistan, I'm glad we're pulling out, but on its surface boy does it seem like it hasn't been executed well. I sincerely hope we limit our response to the attack to IS, and still stick to exiting. But I'm half expecting us to be "involved" for another 20 years, because that's what we do.

[Jason]

when the storm troopers are already retreating, it really makes no sense for the rebel alliance to continue to attack or provoking them to fight back. It's not like these last attacks would severely cripple the 'evil empire'...

Obviously somebody else has some other motives.

Somebody is trying to make Biden look like a Bernie Sanders... trying to make him look bad for doing the right thing.

These latest set backs won't really hurt US much, but would hurt then Biden Admin very much. At the moment I support Biden as if he's Sanders. Wonder how Neanderthal feels about that. ;)

The Taliban and IS do not like each other at all, keep in mind. If IS wants to hurt the Taliban, they have an interest in keeping American troops engaged in the area.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Something just doesn't add up over there.

It's obvious somebody doesn't want US to leave. Exactly who's doing that remains unknown.

Democrats and the Republicans do not like each other at all, but would either one really would rather another more dominating foreign force be inside America just so that their political opposition can't win? This just doesn't make sense. Surely if we have a foreign invader, red and blue would join forces to kick the foreigner out 1st?

Only way for it to make sense is there's another force from outside of Afghanistan interested in making US look bad.

Anyway, yeah, I really hope we won't revert back to forever war mode. Only the cancerous establishment, Russia and maybe China are interested in seeing US being dragged down by huge war debts forever and ever and possibly powerful enough to pull such scheme off...

[Leon]

Another theory would be that they're trying to disrupt the evacuations, so that people on their shitlist can't get away.

[Tom Servo]

From what I'm reading, ISIS and the Taliban do not get along in the slightest. Part of this is to show the world and specifically people in Afghanistan that the Taliban aren't organized or strong enough to protect them from ISIS. It's also a provocation/show of force against the US.

Edit: Just realized that I basically repeated Jason. Oops.

[sandydandy]

Sirhan Sirhan is a free man.

[neanderthal]

On Afghanistan, I'm glad we're pulling out, but on its surface boy does it seem like it hasn't been executed well. I sincerely hope we limit our response to the attack to IS, and still stick to exiting. But I'm half expecting us to be "involved" for another 20 years, because that's what we do.

To be fair, there's not really a "clean way" to extract yourself from a 20 year old military engagement, in a way that would have had no issues, no complaints, and left everyone happy.

My big takeaway is that evauating I think 60000 people in what, ... 10 days, is incredible. And madam secretary Hillay Clinton had chartered planes evacuating people. We really lost out when we didn't get her as our president.

[Jason]

My big issue, acknowledging that I’m ignorant, is that it seems like we could have been doing evacuations before we handed control over to the Taliban.

[Tom Servo]

Sirhan Sirhan is a free man.

Correction - Parole board recommended his release. It's still up to the governor. Same situation the Manson folk have found themselves in many times before.

[Tom Servo]

My big issue, acknowledging that I’m ignorant, is that it seems like we could have been doing evacuations before we handed control over to the Taliban.

My understanding was that was pretty tough to do incognito, as soon as we started that'd basically be the moment we handed over control.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I thought originally they didn’t even expect Taliban to take over so quickly… or the US installed government to collapse so quickly…

[sandydandy]

Correction - Parole board recommended his release. It's still up to the governor. Same situation the Manson folk have found themselves in many times before. Ahh I see. I fell for a misleading CNN headline which started that he actually got parole. They’ve since changed the headline of that article, saying it’s a recommendation. F’n fake news CNN. :P

[FaultyMario]

The Taliban and IS do not like each other at all, keep in mind. If IS wants to hurt the Taliban, they have an interest in keeping American troops engaged in the area.

Reports coming in claim that some of the dead in the August 26th bombings were victims of gunfire from American troops in the confusion of the aftermath.

I think this is what the IS is after, provoke confusion and profit from that.

[Jason]

https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1035334044698009600?s=19

Well, it's official. The world is upside down, and everything is backwards

[JoshInKC]

huh.
I'm actually a little surprised this didn't happen when trump was in office, if it was going to happen.
I wonder if the washington post has something big coming down the pipe.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Trump and Bernie are both antiestablishment so they are similar in a way that average Joe republicans think that Trump cares about them.

Anyway, they’re basically just saying anything to make Biden look bad. I wouldn’t be surprised that it is them who supplied the suicide bombers the bombs to make Biden look bad.

[Tom Servo]

Well, I did overhear someone at my local Mexican restaurant explaining to his dining companion that Bernie and Trump are both secretly working for the CIA and that they play golf together, so that adds up.

[FaultyMario]

https://www.animalpolitico.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Sanders1-456x259.jpg

"I did not take a swing at Donnie's ball, tell 'em Donnie!"

[MR2 Fan]

Louisiana and neighboring areas are getting hit hard with nearly Cat 5 (when it hit landfall) Hurricane and it's going to be devastating.

The good news is that there's a democrat in office and not Bush or Trump, so they might actually get better aid to get through things faster. The bad news is they also have tons of covid patients and ICU's full in all of the neighboring states also with COVID patients. The misinformation campaign about vaccines has really taken its toll.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I really feel bad for all and man made and natural disasters in our nation and around the world. Doesn’t look like we’ll be getting any breaks anytime soon…

[Rare White Ape]

Bit of a deeper thought here, but I am sure other people have come to this conclusion too:

It's almost impossible or people like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk to become mega rich billionaires without someone else being exploited for their labour or their resources. Same goes for large companies. It just wouldn't happen without some massive scale of either paying hordes of people very little money for their work and leaving them in poverty despite working full-time hours, or annexing the resources of local people, yoinking them out of the ground, paying almost no tax on them, and leaving the place a societal and ecological mess.

For this sort of thing to be stopped, you will need the might of an equally large force to resist it. Sadly, the largest force in any country can be held to ransom by the wealth that comes up against them. It could be a large company litigating them into oblivion, or... another government. Another way to resist the might is through people power, but that usually leads to people dying.

The only way to build a force of resistance large enough will be to exploit more people either through capitalistic measures or more violent means.

Ergo, exploitation will never cease unless capitalism ceases.

[Yw-slayer]

Bit of a deeper thought here, but I am sure other people have come to this conclusion too:

It's almost impossible or people like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk to become mega rich billionaires without someone else being exploited for their labour or their resources. Same goes for large companies. It just wouldn't happen without some massive scale of either paying hordes of people very little money for their work and leaving them in poverty despite working full-time hours, or annexing the resources of local people, yoinking them out of the ground, paying almost no tax on them, and leaving the place a societal and ecological mess.

For this sort of thing to be stopped, you will need the might of an equally large force to resist it. Sadly, the largest force in any country can be held to ransom by the wealth that comes up against them. It could be a large company litigating them into oblivion, or... another government. Another way to resist the might is through people power, but that usually leads to people dying.

The only way to build a force of resistance large enough will be to exploit more people either through capitalistic measures or more violent means.

Ergo, exploitation will never cease unless capitalism ceases.

Or you could have a government which imposes more limits on capitalism!

[mk]

Restricted capitalism is a good thing.
Bad thing is that capitalism should be restricted from the beginning.

It's also same with the opposite.
Restricted totalitarism/other ism that is.

Problem is too stupid population.
Controlled society moves pretty slowly, both ways.
Much slower than stupid population accepts and case closed.

Only solution left is uncontrolled society.
But can you blame have-nots, what ever type of have-nots.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It is capitalism that gave us next day delivery of whatever crap you wish to order online. Without capitalism, cars probably won’t exist, let alone EVs and SpaceX.

Capitalism just need to be better regulated, not be banned. It is the engine that helped us grow, we just need to make sure it doesn’t grow out of control like cancer.

China cannot be where it is today without capitalism.

The rich and powerful will have to deal with the mass appropriately or else the mass will start a powerful revolution to truly stop everything. So treating each other fairly is to everyone‘s advantage.

Now making everyone equal is just unrealistic expectation.

Even in Star Trek universe, it’s obvious that capt. Picard is not ‘equal’ to Lt. Barkley. Otherwise we should be able to see Barkley in command of the Enterprise as well, right?

Equal opportunity and fair treatment, yes. But don’t expect everyone to become equal. We don’t eat the same exact amount, we don’t poop the same equal poop and we don’t produce the equal amount of work.

[Rare White Ape]

Look at you stanning for capitalism while under the impression that these things would not have existed without capitalism.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes, look at me, look at America and look at China…

All of them cannot be where they are today without capitalism.

China should be the obvious example here. They denied capitalism and then embraced capitalism. I think the differences between the 2 chinas should be night and day.

Elon Musk also didn’t come to America with the intention to exploit laborers, but to realize his dream… to ensure survival of our species by colonizing Mars. Something he won’t be able to accomplish in South Africa. I don’t know, maybe Elon is also into sex with minors like bill gates, but I am definitely more impressed by SpaceX rockets than Microsoft Windows. So I really think capitalism worked out well for Musk.

Capitalism can certainly make a wrong turn, when capitalists are focusing entirely on making money and accumulating power and not making anything productive, then we’ll have problems.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I also like socialism. Life is full of up and downs. Healthy capitalism can lift us all up, but when shit hits the fan, socialism is the better way as demonstrated during this global pandemic.

I just don’t think we should abolish any -isms, but to just practice them fairly.

[Rare White Ape]

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/2f072e2d-b9a5-417b-8338-69c0d683ddc7/d9ss2bk-d6875001-b895-4770-a105-ab64da0fab3a.gif?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJ IUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQz NzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZT BkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6 W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzJmMDcyZTJkLWI5YTUtNDE3Yi04Mz M4LTY5YzBkNjgzZGRjN1wvZDlzczJiay1kNjg3NTAwMS1iODk1 LTQ3NzAtYTEwNS1hYjY0ZGEwZmFiM2EuZ2lmIn1dXSwiYXVkIj pbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.O3ZY5cg6 0DO7uIXcccFiC2E90YO0tnNxoRAyYfEqMkQ

[Yw-slayer]

Totally borrowing that GIF.

[Rare White Ape]

It’s yours comrade.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think Elon Musk is a known slave driver and works his workers hard, but I don't believe people in SpaceX and Tesla are making slave wages. Even for the lowest paid workers in Amazon..., surely there are workers being paid even lower who are NOT employed by Jeff Bezos?

My point is that low wages are not all due to these mega billionaire owned companies. Amazon's and Tesla's success are not all due to exploitation of laborers. Smaller companies could also exploit workers. Hopefully it's market demand dictating these wages, but if wages becomes too low, yeah, we definitely should have higher min wage. I suppose that's where socialism can come in to save the day? Protecting those who are being exploited by capitalism or to provide social safety net for those in trouble times...

Both capitalism and socialism can be made to work and historically had some drawbacks. We just need to be careful not to repeat those same mistakes and try to take the best of both worlds. I just don't understand why there are always people who hate one of them so much and want one of them banned. To me, it just doesn't make sense to ban either one of them. On a very basic level, capitalism is just our need to make a living. Folks like Bezo and Musk are just very lucky and works very hard making their living. It's not their fault that they're so successful. As long as we can make sure these billionaires don't do evil shit, I don't see the problem with having trillionaires... as long as we also make sure rest of the folks can still make a living above poverty level.

Also, socialism is also basically our natural response to take care of each other when others are in trouble... whether it's due to health related issues or caring for older age folks... I don't believe socialism needs to take care of healthy young folks so that they can just play video games all day. UBI should just be some sort of supplemental income if it becomes necessary. We probably shouldn't allow UBI to cause labor shortage. IMHO, We don't need to take from the rich and then redistribute that money to everyone... perhaps just make sure we can end poverty. If everyone in our society could live without having to worry about their next meal, everyone can become more productive.

So government's job is to basically make basic standard of living or poverty line as low as possible(make sure inflation don't go out of control), and then to make sure its citizens are all above that poverty level. Socialism is needed to make sure nobody falls below the poverty level... and once that happens, everyone can try to be as productive as they want to be by practicing capitalism... or if one's content with play video games on their free time, that's fine too. We don't all have to work as hard as Elon Musk. Having one successful company is already amazing enough, I honestly don't know how he managed to do so well with multiple companies... Seriously, where else on earth could Elon Musk accomplish similar achievements?



Ergo, exploitation will never cease unless capitalism ceases.

I mainly have a problem with this conclusion. Let's go back to China... poor chinese people could be exploited by its government whether if it's strict communism or with market capitalism. The problem of exploitation isn't with any one of those -isms, but with those in power treating others unfairly or unjustly. If we can act fairly and justly, it really doesn't matter what kind of -ism we practice. Exploitations can exist under the same CCP rule regardless which -ism they practice..., but like I said, China did get richer collectively by practicing capitalism.

[2ndMoparMan]

Fuck Texas.

[neanderthal]

Fuck Texas.

HEY!!!! Ah, fuckit, ... you're right.

Once again, proving how important the ballot was in 2016.

"I am the only thing standing between you and the apocalypse." Hillary Clinton. October 11, 2016.

If only we knew just how accurate that statement was back then. (i did actually, and I tried to sound the alarm!!! And I got called all sorts of things, and still get called some of those things to this day. But the future is becoming the hellscape I chicken littled about regularly.)

[neanderthal]

Fuck Texas.

HEY!!!! Ah, fuckit, ... you're right.

Once again, proving how important the ballot was in 2016.

"I am the only thing standing between you and the apocalypse." Hillary Clinton. 2016.

If only we knew just how accurate that statement was back then. (i did actually, and I tried to sound the alarm!!! And I got called all sorts of things, and still get called some of those things to this day. But the future is becoming the hellscape I chicken littled about regularly.)

[FaultyMario]

"I am the only thing standing between you and the apocalypse." Hillary Clinton. October 11, 2016.

Dude, get over it. She lost because she is a terrible campaigner. It was her who chose no to tour certain battleground states. It was her who attacked the white working class voter ('deplorables'), and that is a no-no of American politics.

[Rare White Ape]

Words...

Billi, your problem, or... one of your problems, is that you compartmentalise complex subjects too much without looking at the larger picture.

For starters, Amazon pays its bottom-end warehouse staff in the USA (a wealthy country) quite poorly. You covered that in your post. But you did not consider the vast amounts of things which are made in China for pennies and sold via Amazon with tiny profit in huge volumes to people in Western countries.

Uber is another example. Drivers are paid poorly, or locked into heavy car lease agreements. The reason Uber is so successful is the immense scale at which the company operates.

And you have it very wrong about Tesla or SpaceX. As I understand it, employees in car factories have very good workplace agreements, and aerospace engineers are rightfully paid very well for what they do. But again that's looking at it in isolation, in it's little box...

A trip to the supermarket might only cost $5 but Uber takes around half that. It doesn't seem like much to you but multiply that across 20 million trips per day. That's probably 2-3 million people in wealthy countries being exploited in a small way every day. If you buy any of those products from Amazon or truthfully ANYWHERE that sells anything, YOU are contributing to the problem I outlined. So am I. Once you understand this it becomes easier to recognise where the problem lies. And you also have to look at where the Musk family gained its wealth, a story I am sure you're familiar with because UwU ~".*.*."~Elon~".*.*."~ UwU is your hero so I won't repeat it here.

And finally I never suggested socialism as the replacement for crapitalism and I not sure it is even that.

UwU

[Rikadyn]

Also, socialism is worker ownership of the means of production. Full stop.

[neanderthal]

Dude, get over it. She lost because she is a terrible campaigner. It was her who chose no to tour certain battleground states. It was her who attacked the white working class voter ('deplorables'), and that is a no-no of American politics.

She lost because of a thirty year smear campaign by Republicans, but go off youngblood!!! on. I don't think she campaigned terribly in the least. Best, no. Terrible, no too.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Billi, your problem, or... one of your problems, is that you compartmentalise complex subjects too much without looking at the larger picture.

For starters, Amazon pays its bottom-end warehouse staff in the USA (a wealthy country) quite poorly. You covered that in your post. But you did not consider the vast amounts of things which are made in China for pennies and sold via Amazon with tiny profit in huge volumes to people in Western countries.

Uber is another example. Drivers are paid poorly, or locked into heavy car lease agreements. The reason Uber is so successful is the immense scale at which the company operates.

And you have it very wrong about Tesla or SpaceX. As I understand it, employees in car factories have very good workplace agreements, and aerospace engineers are rightfully paid very well for what they do. But again that's looking at it in isolation, in it's little box...

A trip to the supermarket might only cost $5 but Uber takes around half that. It doesn't seem like much to you but multiply that across 20 million trips per day. That's probably 2-3 million people in wealthy countries being exploited in a small way every day. If you buy any of those products from Amazon or truthfully ANYWHERE that sells anything, YOU are contributing to the problem I outlined. So am I. Once you understand this it becomes easier to recognise where the problem lies. And you also have to look at where the Musk family gained its wealth, a story I am sure you're familiar with because UwU ~".*.*."~Elon~".*.*."~ UwU is your hero so I won't repeat it here.

And finally I never suggested socialism as the replacement for crapitalism and I not sure it is even that.

UwU

Anyway, I just disagree with roofer that socialism needs to go away. Likewise I disagree with you that capitalism needs to go away. They both have their places in this world. Neither needs to be replaced, improved upon maybe.

Main issue I have with capitalism is the part where people could gamble with other peoples money by speculating… when it becomes all about money and not really building anything real, that’s when I have problems with it. Worst of all is that they’re betting things to go down. Profiting off of others misery is just lame.

Anyway, like I said, I have no problem with billionaires making their honest billions. You bet your own money building EVs and rockets, I think you deserve a big payoff.

Workers agreed to whatever wage when accepted their jobs. Job offers weren’t given at Gun point. Even Chinese peasants got richer than before when capitalism ‘exploited’ them.

I don’t think CCP believes capitalism has hurt China and wish to go back to communism… or just to ban capitalism. They may ban dissidents like Jack Ma, but I doubt CCP would ever abandon capitalism at this point.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Also, socialism is worker ownership of the means of production. Full stop.

I just don’t think that’s possible because we are not Borg. Sure, we could have generous bosses give away ownership to his workers to make such company employee owned in a financial sense, but the real owner is still in control right? It’s not like employees could fire that real owner?

It’s also not likely that workers will just get together and decide to build EVs and rockets together.

Finally, when there are too many chiefs, often times there’ll be too much in-fighting to get anything done.

F1 and NASCAR had single person in charge while CART was owned by all the teams…you know how that turned out.

Public opinions are just too diverse. We can’t have everyone owning and running the same company. Not very successfully at least.

Do you have any examples of any successful employee own and run companies?

[Tom Servo]

Dude, get over it. She lost because she is a terrible campaigner. It was her who chose no to tour certain battleground states. It was her who attacked the white working class voter ('deplorables'), and that is a no-no of American politics.

I feel like I came into this knowing more than most, but I knew exactly who she was talking about with deplorables. It was people like Richard Spencer, Stephen Miller, Milo Yiannopoulos, Steve Bannon, et al. It was not "white working class voters". It was the MGTOW and Incel crowds, and the dipshits that hung out on 8kun and /r/TheDonald. The thing that happened there was people like the aforementioned alt-right jackholes managed to convince white working class voters that she *was* referring to them. Trump and his cronies did a great job of making an "us vs. them" environment, it was *not* Clinton's speech that created that. He campaigned on that and his move was to welcome the actual deplorables in with open arms into the big tent-o-grievances. Go back and listen to her speech. She was 100% not wrong.

Another angle on this. I think if you're a douchebag, you'll likely drive an Audi. That does not mean that if you drive an Audi you're a douchebag. You didn't have to be a deplorable to like Trump, but I do notice that people I know that own Audis are awfully fucking sensitive about it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I can agree she didn’t say anything wrong with the deplorable comment, but at a time when anti-establishment sentiment is high, she is simply the wrong person for the job. Obama really should’ve stuck to his promise and stayed in the senate and let Hillary be the president for 8 years…

If it were Obama running against Trump, DNC might have a better chance.

[FaultyMario]

I feel like I came into this knowing more than most, but I knew exactly who she was talking about with deplorables. It was people like Richard Spencer, Stephen Miller, Milo Yiannopoulos, Steve Bannon, et al. It was not "white working class voters". It was the MGTOW and Incel crowds, and the dipshits that hung out on 8kun and /r/TheDonald. The thing that happened there was people like the aforementioned alt-right jackholes managed to convince white working class voters that she *was* referring to them.

It doesn't matter who you think she was talking about. The white working class voter is a protected species for the powerful* media narrators, and they get to decide who the labels apply to.


___
*Powerful not in the conspiratorial sense, but more in the "some media are more powerful than others", and those tend to be conservative.

[Tom Servo]

I'd still argue that's very different from "It was her who attacked the white working class voter ('deplorables')".

[Crazed_Insanity]

Point is that part of her speech sounded like something Trump would say.

It is also pretty clear to all, with Neanderthal as exception, that Hillary is not really that cozy with the working class, regardless of color.

She should've been more clear who the 'deplorables' really are rather than allowing others to twist her words.

Anyway, on a personal level, I didn't want to vote for her before that speech... I don't think that particular speech made me hate her more. Pretty much confirmed my feelings about her. Even when the right twisting her meaning, it still fits very well. Seriously, don't most of you believe all Trump supporters are deplorable?

Campaigns really shouldn't be ran by telling how deplorable or how stupid others are, but highlighting what makes you so outstanding that people naturally just want to vote for you and forget about others. But I suppose negative campaign is now the norm. Nobody can run a negative campaign better than Trump. Especially when that was his 1st time and he carried no political baggage. Next time it will be different. I'm sure not all conservatives will automatically vote Trump next time. (Biden wouldn't win if some conservatives didn't crack due to Trump's lousy performance!)

Another thing that hurt Hillary was her long political career(baggage). Real culprit for Hillary to not win the White House is really Obama. Obama stole her best chance. 8 Years later, it's clear she has missed her window of opportunity... to actually lose to a pussy grabber. Back in 2016, after Access Hollywood story broke, I really thought it was over for Trump. But she still lost! That was unbelievable to me. Without that story, surely Trump could've really won by a huge landslide.

[MR2 Fan]

Hillary had DECADES of smears against her, whether based on truth or not, that was the baggage.

In other news, Texas passes and the supreme court basically allows their 6 week abortion ban to take effect.

The GOP must be thrilled at this outcome...they get their wish, and democrats might just be angry enough to leave the state...which would allow Texas to go back to deeper red....and other red states are quickly going to follow suit with their own similar laws.

The other Texas laws passed are quite extreme as well....full gun use without any permit, $10,000 bounty that can be given to anyone....for them pointing out anyone accused of seeking out an abortion??? insane.

[FaultyMario]

I'd still argue that's very different from "It was her who attacked the white working class voter ('deplorables')".

That comment was completely unnecessary. Plus, it was said during a debate, so her advisers must have been blindsided when she said it. It was a minor gaffe that was completely blown out of proportion, but it was still her mistake, for improvising.

The Texan thing is bonkers.

[Rare White Ape]

Clinton may not have called regular people deplorables, but that doesn’t matter. What matters is public perception after the fact, which is largely out of her control. She needed to play the tight game, which meant that every tiny slip would get her picked apart like a hot chook.

The fact is she got totally owned by Trump. He didn’t give a fuck about what his perception was, and every mistake would be added to the pile of white noise. He just kept it rolling and rolling until it became a hype train. Fox News was definitely batting for him, but even networks that wanted him to lose were driving that hype simply by reporting on his idiocy.

[Tom Servo]

Given that the people she referred to literally tried to invade the capital and stage a coup, I'm still maintaining it wasn't a gaffe. I get what you're saying, but I really feel like the blame is being put in the wrong place here. She was right, full stop.