Politics

[dodint]

Sleep just a little bit at a time.

Very happy to see this still going.

[FaultyMario]

Supposedly Bannon is turning himself in on Monday.....OR he's going to fly out to some country that doesn't have extradition....one of the two

Will they admit him in Israel?

[Yw-slayer]

I can tell you Billi won't be watching The Battle of Lake Changjin.

[neanderthal]

Holy shit! I haven’t really been paying close attention to that trial until recently… I’ve always assumed the kid shot black people, but I just realized the 3 people he killed/injured were all white!

So at least this was not about race?

You haven't been paying attention for a long time, dipshit!

[Crazed_Insanity]

So if Kyle was found not guilty for killing 2 white men, black people will be pissed off? Surely not?

Only people will be pissed off would be other white protesters looking for justifications to make some more good trouble?

[Tom Servo]

Maybe people will be pissed off that a kid with an illegally owned weapon crossed state lines to play COD in real life, panicked, and started killing people who may have been reacting to the fact that some asshat with a gun showed up and wanted to disarm said asshat before he killed more people?

[Crazed_Insanity]

That’s totally understandable, but they are concerned enough to mobilize national guards in order to manage that level of pissed-off-ness?

This movement is supposed to be about making Black Lives Matter more, but it’s now all about white people causing some good trouble I guess.

Why are white people so pissed off on the streets? Why don’t the rich white people just go buy off some politicians and change the world that way?

Anyway, to me, it looks like white liberals have hijacked BLM and to use it to fight white conservatives.

[sandydandy]

I think the jury will find him guilty. Then that dickhead of a judge will overturn it. Judgment notwithstanding verdict (JNOV) I believe it’s called.

That judge is horrid!

[dodint]

JNOV is incredibly rare, and more importantly, is only available in civil cases. They're unconstitutional in criminal cases because a JNOV would violate multiple Constitutional rights. Specifically, the Fifth Amendment right not to be placed in double jeopardy and the Sixth Amendment right to a fair trial.
If I had to guess I'd say you've watched too many crime dramas or spend too much time on reddit.

I would 100% not be shocked if the jury acquitted him on the most serious counts, though.

[sandydandy]

If I had to guess I'd say you've watched too many crime dramas or spend too much time on reddit. :lol:

Neither. I just remember it being discussed during the OJ trial.

[dodint]

;)

I belong to a bunch of law subs on reddit, both lawyer and client side, and hooo-boy is there a lot of misconceptions about the legal system. As a plaintiffs civil attorney I try not to wade too deep into the criminal side; one of the funniest reddit comments I ever saw was a criminal attorney calling out tax and estate attorneys as knowing less about the criminal side than laypersons. :lol: Somewhere down the line I may look at taking DUI cases on the criminal side, but that's about it. And it would be a substantial endeavor as my malpractice insurance doesn't even cover criminal matters so I'd have to change that policy and pay a higher premium.

What I said about JNOV is true, though. It's not an option here.

[Rare White Ape]

I think the jury will find him guilty.

I haven’t kept up to date on this but to me it looks like his self defence defence is going to be successful.

Either he was charged with the wrong thing, or the laws in the state don’t match the moral expectations of its population. I’d swing more towards the latter.

[dodint]

It's the latter and it's a very astute observation on your part. I was going to share something similar earlier but it's kind of nuanced and unfortunate. Everything about the situation feels wrong, but when you break it down into individual components there isn't anything legally wrong. As a for instance, they dropped the 'underage person with a gun' charge today because technically it was a rifle with a full barrel, so it qualifies as a hunting rifle that minors in Wisconsin are allowed to possess. This is extra lame because I don't think you can hunt with a semi-auto in Wisconsin (but I'm not sure, I've only ever hunted in PA and here we were just given permission to hunt small game with semi-auto). It's just a poorly crafted law, written in 1991 to try and keep sawed-off shotguns out of gangs but the exception for hunting rifles basically nullified the entire law aside from short barrel long guns.

[2ndMoparMan]

If he walks that city is going to explode.

[dodint]

Well, they'll have him to protect some property, at least.

[FaultyMario]

So this might not be entirely political...

... but...

... how do you lot feel about right-to-repair?

Something not so cool might be brewing stateside with the John Deere strike, the abnormal inflation of soft commodities in the world markets and folks looking to cash in on the used-tractor bubble.

[Tom Servo]

I'd be surprised if anybody here is against right-to-repair, if only so we could replace the batteries in our phones ourselves if they go bad.

[Rare White Ape]

Right to repair is a movement that springs up when companies push it a little too far.

Microsoft had an investors meeting recently where an investment activist group managed to convince them to adopt right to repair policies in their products.

[Rare White Ape]

It's the latter and it's a very astute observation on your part.

Thank you sir. I do try and think before I open my mouth sometimes.

If Rittenhouse does make himself available for inanimate object protection duties, do you think he’ll wear olive green again? Or would it be more of a shade of blue this time?

[MR2 Fan]

So they had Kyle Rittenhouse roll a raffle drum and then "randomly" choose names for the jury???

https://apnews.com/article/kyle-rittenhouse-trial-kenosha-alernate-jurors-6083818efa5b6888d8059d97b17f85b7?utm_source=Twitte r&utm_medium=AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow

I'm also no legal expert but I've never heard of this before.

[dodint]

Neat.

Where I am from alt-jurors know they are alternates from the start.
Maybe this is a unique procedure for a highly notable trial. Six extra jurors is a lot, too.

[Tom Servo]

Oh weird, yeah, I had assumed that this happened at the start of the trial. It's definitely like that here too, you know you're an alternate right from the start.

[JoshInKC]

Yeah, same thing here.

[MR2 Fan]

and why have the defendant choose the names?

[drew]

So much "fucked up" in this one.....

This alt-juror thing, to the "judge" stating that if they find doubt "it's over, no need to continue".... fuck that judge.

My only hope is that he is convicted (ultimately on all charges), then they indict his mother for aiding/accomplice, and then find out where he got the rifle, and put that person in jail. 17 year olds can't buy rifles, last I knew. So someone either gave it to him in WI, or he left home with it, in which case, fuck mommy.

If this goes nowhere, and he's acquitted, congrats, you just gave everyone the green light to get their Punisher T-shirt out and start culling ANTIFA/BLM protests.

Also, fuck that judge.

[sandydandy]

fuck that judge.

...

Also, fuck that judge. Yes and yes. Seriously can't stand him.

[dodint]

...then they indict his mother for aiding/accomplice, and then find out where he got the rifle, and put that person in jail. 17 year olds can't buy rifles, last I knew. So someone either gave it to him in WI, or he left home with it, in which case, fuck mommy.


That is already underway.


Dominick Black, of Kenosha, faces two felony counts of intentionally giving a dangerous weapon to a minor, causing death, according to a criminal complaint filed in Kenosha County Circuit Court. If he's found guilty, he faces up to 6 years in prison per count.

[Crazed_Insanity]

So much "fucked up" in this one.....

This alt-juror thing, to the "judge" stating that if they find doubt "it's over, no need to continue".... fuck that judge.

My only hope is that he is convicted (ultimately on all charges), then they indict his mother for aiding/accomplice, and then find out where he got the rifle, and put that person in jail. 17 year olds can't buy rifles, last I knew. So someone either gave it to him in WI, or he left home with it, in which case, fuck mommy.

If this goes nowhere, and he's acquitted, congrats, you just gave everyone the green light to get their Punisher T-shirt out and start culling ANTIFA/BLM protests.

Also, fuck that judge.

I thought it was the mommy who make Kyle turn himself in?

As for the purchaser of the rifle, that's a 19 yr old friend and he could face a 6 year jail term if convicted.

Anyway, this is essentially a case about gun rights of white people, not really about white supremacists vs black folks I don't think... I thought this AP article help explained all the angles pretty well: https://apnews.com/article/kyle-rittenhouse-guns-kenosha-wisconsin-e9e8b8b89bb84d7db8ab69c7a185335b

Guilty or not, this trial can only end badly either way... and yeah, that judge is really something.

[JoshInKC]

It's actually about "Can a white person go out hunting people?"

[Crazed_Insanity]

I saw on my FB from some of the more conservative friends posting stuff like... if it weren't for 17 yr olds with rifles, we'd all still be British!

I think that summed up pretty much how they feel about Kyle?

Which is BS I know, now and then are not exactly the same... however, regarding your analogy of 'hunting' people, that ain't quite right either because it seemed like even protesters over there were armed. Everyone is out and about in the middle of the night looking for some 'good trouble'.

I'd definitely not pick up a rifle as a 17 yr old. (But who knows, maybe as a 17 yr old, I'd be just as stupid)
I'd also not give a rifle to a 17 yr old to guard my store.
I'd also not protest in the middle of the night, armed or not.

If I’m protesting, I want to be seen by as many as possible in broad daylight!

[Tom Servo]

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, it's tough to research, but for all the arguments I hear about protestors behaving badly justifying him, as far as I know Rittenhouse is the only person that killed anyone that night.

[dodint]

The police shot Blake 4 times in the back. He was only paralyzed, though. ;)

The Wikipedia articles on it seem pretty on point:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenosha_unrest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenosha_unrest_shooting

Death(s)
2 protesters shot and killed

Injuries
1 protester shot and hospitalized
1 police officer hospitalized
1 firefighter hospitalized[2]

Charged
1 individual for two counts of first degree murder[3]
2 individuals initially for illegal firearms possession[4]

Property damage
$2 million to city-owned property[5]
Up to $50 million (Kenosha Area Business Alliance estimate)[6]

Not the biggest fan of citing Wikipedia but for this level of scrutiny I think it's okay to say that no, no one else was killed.

[Crazed_Insanity]

By saying one shouldn’t protest in the middle of the night, yeah, I know I could be accused of victim blaming… but seriously, should protesters really be protesting at night and burning and destroying property? If that wasn’t happening, would Kyle even have a reason to show up?

Naturally a real mass shooter needs no good reason. He can shoot people up just because…

Anyway, I’m sure we can find sufficient reasons to justify both sides.

That’s why regardless of the verdict, people in either side will probably stay firmly on their side. Just that the losing side will end up hating the winning side even more.

BTW, just to be clear, I'm with neither side.

I support BLM, but I don't support white armed protestors protesting in the middle of the night causing property damages. I also don't support shooting protesters and killing them regardless of shooter's age. It was a fucked up situation... being tried in a fucked up court and by a fucked up judge.

I guess I'm glad that Kyle didn't actually shoot any black protestors. We don't need additional racial tension in this fucked up situation.

[Tom Servo]

Jacob Chansley, aka the QAnon Shaman, got 41 months for his role in the insurrection.

I'm a little torn on this. As far as I know, that's the longest sentence so far. He clearly drew a ton of attention to himself and was more than willing to be at the front of people invading the capitol. On the other hand, I don't think he came there with the intention to commit violence/"hang Mike Pence" that others had and who have gotten shorter sentences than him.

It's hard for me to think of him as the flag-bearer, he's more a cosplayer.

[FaultyMario]

the intention to commit violence

Does American law doctrine (in real life, not in courtroom serials) make a distinction between the act and the intention?

In the Rosenbaum/Huber case, it seems to me that while the shooter might have had horrible intentions, each of the individual actions that compose the chain of events leading up to their murders do not reflect those intentions, and in the end, if Rittenhouse can't be proven guilty of what he has been charged with, it'd be because each of his acts have been loosely connected in the criminal narrative. So maybe in the case of Q-Shaman his actions were much worse than his intentions and the prosecutors where smart enough to charge him with a lot of prove-able criminal conducts.

[Tom Servo]

IANAL, but it seems like sentencing often takes into account intention. Dodint would know better than me, though.

[dodint]

Not speaking to this case specifically, but yes, there is a distinction between the act and intent. The doctrine is called "Mens Rea" and without intent you cannot find them culpable of most crimes. The exception is if they violated a law with a strict liability component.

Some examples:

You fire a gun into a crowd. You didn't intend to kill anyone, but your actions were incredibly reckless. They can't get you for First Degree murder, but they can get you for 'depraved heart murder' which will be a manslaughter charge, usually.

You fire a gun in the woods at a deer, and miss. The round carries for 400 more yards and strikes another hunter, killing him. There is no intent to murder and there would be no charges filed. Factually, you have killed a man with a rifle.

You are cited for driving 75mph in a 55mph zone. The speed limit just changed but you didn't see the sign. You didn't intend to speed, but it is a strict liability law so you are guilty whether you intended to speed or not. There are many strict liability laws; that's why it's a common expression that 'ignorance of the law is not a defense.'

[dodint]

IANAL, but it seems like sentencing often takes into account intention. Dodint would know better than me, though.

With the KR judge, man, who knows. :lol:

But sentencing is usually done with a rubric. There a guidelines with minimum and maximum penalities. And then there are aggravating factors and mitigations. Aggravating factors will increase the sentence, and mitigating circumstances will lessen it. In a well run court it is very organized, both because they want a uniform application of justice but also because it's much harder to turn over a sentence on appeal if it is inside of the sentencing guidelines. The Chauvin/Floyd case from Minneapolis is a really good case study about sentencing guidelines, because he was a cop (usually mitigating) but his actions were also incredibly egregious (aggravating).

It looks like the most serious charge that KR is facing carries a sentence of 60 years that can be mitigated down to 40.

[Tom Servo]

Story that reminded me that while there are two sides to every story, chances are they're both wrong. https://www.thecut.com/2021/11/what-happened-at-carmines.html?utm_campaign=nym&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1

For the record, I believed the initial vaccination story. I need to be working on my bullshit detectors.

[Tom Servo]

The thing is the GOP was already always going to do shitty bad-faith things, because they’re shitty bad-faith people, so there’s limited utility to refraining from doing things because it might embolden them. Wear short pants or long pants, the dog will still hump your leg.

https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1461092184447348740

[Rare White Ape]

Story that reminded me that while there are two sides to every story, chances are they're both wrong. https://www.thecut.com/2021/11/what-happened-at-carmines.html?utm_campaign=nym&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1

For the record, I believed the initial vaccination story. I need to be working on my bullshit detectors.

That story is better if you hum the tune to Alice's Restaurant in your head while you read it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Story that reminded me that while there are two sides to every story, chances are they're both wrong. https://www.thecut.com/2021/11/what-happened-at-carmines.html?utm_campaign=nym&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1

For the record, I believed the initial vaccination story. I need to be working on my bullshit detectors.

While I often both side social issues, when it comes to these kind of stories, due to my lame ass BS detector, I typically neither side these stories…

I think George Floyd incident is one of the very few stories that was pretty clear cut. If that cop had gone free, I think even I’d want to start a riot! Most other stories, I dunno man… just need to try to show others more understanding… because otherwise things will only continue to swing out of control!

[sandydandy]

I haven’t kept up to date on this but to me it looks like his self defence defence is going to be successful.

Either he was charged with the wrong thing, or the laws in the state don’t match the moral expectations of its population. I’d swing more towards the latter. I don't believe in his self defense. I was moved by Binger's closing argument where he stated the fundamental fact that when you provoke a situation then you forfeit your right to self defense. The fact is he dropped the fire extinguisher and pointed his rifle. That act alone started the chain of events. If you look at each shooting without context then yeah, it looks like self defense. But under the premise of Rittenhouse instigating the ENTIRE ordeal, the self defense argument doesn't hold any water. I hope the jury is smart and wise enough to see it.

Let's see what happens...hopefully we get a verdict today.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'm hoping the court catches on fire and everyone can just runaway and go home for now and try again later...

Next time, don't televise any of what's going on in the court. The public really doesn't need to know. Those who really want to know can just read the transcripts.

[dodint]

I don't believe in his self defense. I was moved by Binger's closing argument where he stated the fundamental fact that when you provoke a situation then you forfeit your right to self defense. The fact is he dropped the fire extinguisher and pointed his rifle. That act alone started the chain of events. If you look at each shooting without context then yeah, it looks like self defense. But under the premise of Rittenhouse instigating the ENTIRE ordeal, the self defense argument doesn't hold any water. I hope the jury is smart and wise enough to see it.


This is how we learned it in law school. You can't escalate a situation, provoke deadly force, and then claim self-defense.
But I also don't think the prosecution was very convincing.

[neanderthal]

Does American law doctrine (in real life, not in courtroom serials) make a distinction between the act and the intention?



It does if you're not a black/ brown/ native youth.

[Dicknose]

Story that reminded me that while there are two sides to every story, chances are they're both wrong. https://www.thecut.com/2021/11/what-happened-at-carmines.html?utm_campaign=nym&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1

For the record, I believed the initial vaccination story. I need to be working on my bullshit detectors.

Does the original incident matter that much - its clear who made it violent.
Sure its interesting that the narrative bounced around quite a bit.
But in the end this was a physical assault and should be treated as such.

[sandydandy]

But I also don't think the prosecution was very convincing. Are you saying that looking through the lens of a legal student/professional, or a lay person? I didn't watch much of the testimonies but saw the prosecutor's entire closing arguments and was pretty convinced.

I think it's hilarious how the defense keeps asking for a mistrial because of a minor technical issue, (the drone footage file), but that's their job I guess.

[dodint]

Rittenhouse Not Guilty on all counts. Whooo-boy. Not surprised, but, damn.

[Tom Servo]

That does make me worried we're going to see a bunch more vigilante action in the future. Between that and states trying to make it legal to run down people with your car, I don't see this ending well.

Also reminds me of the "It's comin' right for us!" episode of South Park, for some reason.

[Crazed_Insanity]

For a kid who'd cry like a baby during trial and fall to the ground after hearing the verdict, I think it's perfectly clear that "boy" is NOT qualified to carry any sort of weapon to protect anything. Unless he's just a psychopath who's also a very good actor in court...

This trial would never have a happy ending which ever way it goes..., just glad it's over.


That does make me worried we're going to see a bunch more vigilante action in the future. Between that and states trying to make it legal to run down people with your car, I don't see this ending well.

I do believe even if Kyle was found guilty and put away for life, future vigilantes will still be vigilantes.

I do hope people learned that unless you're ready to sacrifice your life, you probably don't want to go protesting in the middle of the night.

[sandydandy]

Not guilty, the filthy. :mad:

[2ndMoparMan]

Color me shocked that he walked. Bet the pricks in the Amhad case are gonna walk too.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just saw a funny meme on FB, saying that for those who posted pics of Kyle cleaning up graffiti, here's a pick of Charles Manson playing guitar at church! ;)

I can't believe that pic is actually rated by snopes as mostly true!:eek:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charles-manson-guitar-church/

Here's hoping Kyle learned his lessons? Or else, I'm pretty sure if he continues to live by rifles, he will probably die by other people killing him sooner or later.

[MR2 Fan]

I really hate this case because I feel like it depends on a lot of factors that may not have been within the direct purview of the charges, and for that reason, I'm not surprised that he was found not guilty, even if I hate that it happened...if that makes sense.

[21Kid]

Rittenhouse Not Guilty on all counts. Whooo-boy. Not surprised, but, damn.

Yup

[Tom Servo]

I do believe even if Kyle was found guilty and put away for life, future vigilantes will still be vigilantes.

Well, by definition that sentence will always evaluate to true. If they're going to be future vigilantes, then they will be future vigilantes. The problem are the people who might not have been but now will be more likely to be.

If it makes you feel any better, a bunch of the Accelerationist (groups that are trying to start a race war to speed up the coming of a white ethnostate) Telegram forums are very excited about this result today and looking forward to handing out their own justice at future BLM protests. I don't think they're particularly worried about what time of day they happen at, either.

EDIT: Proud Boys are apparently also very excited about the precedent for dealing with protestors.

[FaultyMario]

Is the shooter liable to an OJ-style civil suit by the families of Rosenbaum and Huber?

[dodint]

Strangely the Wrongful Death suit filed by one of the families of a dead protestor named the Kenosha PD and the sheriff but not Rittenhouse.

https://www.wisn.com/article/kyle-rittenhouse-victim-anthony-huber-family-federal-lawsuit-kenosha/37329433

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well, by definition that sentence will always evaluate to true. If they're going to be future vigilantes, then they will be future vigilantes. The problem are the people who might not have been but now will be more likely to be.

If it makes you feel any better, a bunch of the Accelerationist (groups that are trying to start a race war to speed up the coming of a white ethnostate) Telegram forums are very excited about this result today and looking forward to handing out their own justice at future BLM protests. I don't think they're particularly worried about what time of day they happen at, either.

EDIT: Proud Boys are apparently also very excited about the precedent for dealing with protestors.

I think for these 'accelerationists', any sort of escalation of social/racial tensions, such as this one, is good because it should speed up the collapse of the current system.

I guess I'm a decelerationist then. I'm hoping we can de-escalate tensions... anyway, for this particular case, I don't think there's a way to de-escalate tensions either way.

OJ and Kyle were both found not guilty, but that doesn't mean they're found innocent.

Look at it this way... regardless how hard we crack down the the terrorists in the middle east, it's obvious that ain't working. So are you sure we need to try the similar approach to further crackdown on white terrorists?

Look, I'm as worried as you, probably more so... because I'm not even white! However, based on what happened in Jan 6, it is my opinion that such white terrorists must be a very small minority group... they had their chance! To just kill all the liberal politicians and 'rightfully' install Trump as their leader! Why did they stop and go home?

So I'm hoping those so call white supremacists are just isolated nutcases like any other mass shooters. Yeah, for sure our nation has a gun and mental health problem that is getting worse, but somehow I don't believe most white conservative americans are white supremacists. I know Jan6 shouldn't even happen, but seeing those nutcases not actually overthrowing the US government while they had the chance gave me some hope.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Strangely the Wrongful Death suit filed by one of the families of a dead protestor named the Kenosha PD and the sheriff but not Rittenhouse.

https://www.wisn.com/article/kyle-rittenhouse-victim-anthony-huber-family-federal-lawsuit-kenosha/37329433

Surely KPD has more money to pay up in the event that they win that law suit? How much money could Kyle pay?

[MR2 Fan]

The other issue with situations like this, is that you have a lot of people from both sides of the recent protests/riots/whatever they decide they want to call them, hinging their entire belief system upon whether this one person is "guilty" or not.

It's not fair to the jurors in that case.

I didn't hear the whole case, or the entire testimony. He killed 2 white people and injured another white person. If he had killed black people at the same protest maybe the outcome would have been considered clearer as a "white supremacy" move instead of a "protecting businesses from looters" or whatever stupid ideas he had and got caught up in a situation. The people attacking him probably attacked him because he HAD a gun on him.

Should he have been there? no. Should he have brought a gun? no. Were those part of the specific criteria of the jury's decision? ...also, he's a minor, which plays an impact on the decision as well.

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, I keep getting stuck on what someone would have thought if they saw some random guy, not in a police uniform, shooting people in that situation. What if Rittenhouse had thought a school had gotten out of control and decided to show up there and start shooting?

At what point is he defending himself vs. people are trying to stop what appears to be a mass shooting?

How do we decide if your cause is "just" if you're going to go somewhere shooting. I'm sure most mass shooters thought their cause was "just". That's why people don't get to be judge, jury, and executioner like he was.

[FaultyMario]

Way i see it, dude's got it coming his way. from other stuff that has come out about him, he's no different from that Florida man who killed the black kid that was just wearing a hoodie, and then bragged about it everywhere.

These guys don't acknowledge just how incredibly lucky they were, and go on thinking nothing can touch them, and then something does.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, I keep getting stuck on what someone would have thought if they saw some random guy, not in a police uniform, shooting people in that situation. What if Rittenhouse had thought a school had gotten out of control and decided to show up there and start shooting?

At what point is he defending himself vs. people are trying to stop what appears to be a mass shooting?

How do we decide if your cause is "just" if you're going to go somewhere shooting. I'm sure most mass shooters thought their cause was "just". That's why people don't get to be judge, jury, and executioner like he was.

I don't think the case was trying to determine when mass killings can be justified... nor did it set precedent that it's okay to kill protesters whenever you feel threatened. However, I'm not a lawyer, what do I know...

IMHO, main objective of the protesters is to peacefully/non-violently get your message out in broad day light. Don't give people like Kyle any excuse to shoot you. Naturally, asshole may shoot you anyways..., but as protesters, that is just the risk you assumed. MLK didn't riot or cause any property damage and yet he was shot in broad daylight...

Not trying to defend Kyle or anything, but if I were a business owner and my livelihood depended on my store... and there's are protesters rioting and burning and looting stuffs... If I have guns, I'd most likely want to guard my store and protect it too especially when police presence had all but disappeared? Or the protesters are protesting specifically against the police?

Anyway, I just think it'll be hard to really justify either side in such situations. This is what is called a no-win situation. Political polarization tend to get us stuck in such situations.

[Tom Servo]

I'm not sure what your penchant is for it being broad daylight when you protest, but I'm unaware of any part of the first amendment that limits it to daytime hours.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Point is you want to protest during 'prime time' when more people can see you.

Why protest in the middle of the night? (nevermind destroying properties... that'll further cause people to lose sympathy for your cause)

[Tom Servo]

Because your protest wasn't done yet? Because you're still mad about injustice?

People don't protest things like that on a specific schedule. There's no "Well, we were mad, but it's getting late and it'll be dark soon..."

Also, quick reminder that Heather Heyer was killed in broad daylight.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I know, like I said earlier MLK was too!

So whenever non-violence and clear footage during day light happens, there'd be no way for shooter like Kyle to use 'self defense'!

In the middle of the night during a riot, it'll just be much easier for people like Kyle to kill you and then claim that you deserved to die.

Broad day light non-violent protests will make it much harder for assholes like Kyle to walk away.

Yeah, your mad as hell, but you do need rest. Don't allow your emotions to get too out of control... end up getting jailed for property damages... or worse... getting shot by Kyle! If you're unlucky enough to have no videos captured..., your dead body will simply be brushed under the rug without a trial.

[neanderthal]

It does if you're not a black/ brown/ native youth.

Kalief Browder was 17 when he was accused of stealing a backpack, and imprisoned at Rikers Island for 3 years, 2 of them in isolation. He tragically died while still in custody having NOT BEEN TRIED.

There are two distinct justice systems. Much like everything else.

[Rare White Ape]

Not trying to defend Kyle or anything, but if I were a business owner and my livelihood depended on my store... and there's are protesters rioting and burning and looting stuffs... If I have guns, I'd most likely want to guard my store and protect it too especially when police presence had all but disappeared? Or the protesters are protesting specifically against the police?

I think it would be easier and safer to do what normal people do: get insurance for the business and its income. Let it burn to the ground. Rebuild when the insurance money rolls in.

Being there to 'protect business' is just code words for shootin' Blacks and if you're thinking that it's a normal course of action then not only have you missed THE point, but you've also missed a whole load of other points too.

[Tom Servo]

RWA, YOU'RE missing the point. It was dark. All bets are off as soon as the sun goes down. Nighttime is a lawless time. A time for only those willing to risk or dish out death.

Did Castlevania II: Simon's Quest teach us nothing?

[Crazed_Insanity]

No you’re missing my point! Imagine the guy in China who stood in front of the tank in the middle of the night…, he’d be dead and nobody would notice! However, because he did that in day time, the world will remember…

Anyway, RWA, normal people wouldn’t own guns nor go hunting. We’re talking Americans here! Not somebody normal like Canadians nor Mexicans.

Seriously, I do believe majority of conservative Americans are not Nazi racists. There are definitely racists and we definitely have systemic racism problems but most Americans are not racists. We are mostly money-ists.

Our legal system found black OJ not guilty too. So not all black folks are discriminated against here…

Anyway, for sure protesting in the middle of the night causing property damages ain’t going to help BLM movement.

[Rare White Ape]

RWA, YOU'RE missing the point. It was dark. All bets are off as soon as the sun goes down. Nighttime is a lawless time. A time for only those willing to risk or dish out death.

Did Castlevania II: Simon's Quest teach us nothing?

Oh sorry my bad. I will consider this new information rather than doubling-down and using very loosely related metaphors.

[dodint]

I think it would be easier and safer to do what normal people do: get insurance for the business and its income. Let it burn to the ground. Rebuild when the insurance money rolls in.

Being there to 'protect business' is just code words for shootin' Blacks and if you're thinking that it's a normal course of action then not only have you missed THE point, but you've also missed a whole load of other points too.

I would argue the green light was lit back here:

https://d1w4q6ldc8l0qo.cloudfront.net/media/AN/images/roof-koreans-civilians-defended-koreatown-racist-violence-la-riots-1992-hero.jpg

The Roof Koreans are folk heroes for the vigilante crowd, the same way KR is for them moving forward.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I remembered them!

Those Koreans had their shops in predominantly black neighborhoods. When police went into hiding after Rodney King’s case and the riot, shop owners were on their own.

Interestingly when white people are not involved, nobody died!

I think we can safely conclude the main source of the problem is white people! They don’t know how to be vigilantes nor do they know how to protest! When shit is happening, white people should all just stay home!

Anyway, seriously, I saw some FB posts from some of my conservative ’friends’, they were cheering for KR’s not guilty verdict as justice system being awesome and a win against BLM! It’s like Wtf?

Guilty or not guilty, White americans are really ruining the BLM movement…

[Tom Servo]

I remembered them!

Those Koreans had their shops in predominantly black neighborhoods. When police went into hiding after Rodney King’s case and the riot, shop owners were on their own.

Interestingly when white people are not involved, nobody died!

I'm sorry, what?

[Tom Servo]

I would argue the green light was lit back here:

https://d1w4q6ldc8l0qo.cloudfront.net/media/AN/images/roof-koreans-civilians-defended-koreatown-racist-violence-la-riots-1992-hero.jpg

The Roof Koreans are folk heroes for the vigilante crowd, the same way KR is for them moving forward.

I agree with you partially, though it seems like it was generally people defending their own stores. I think most people are more sympathetic/think it's more "right" to defend your own store/property/home vs. commuting to another state to "defend" some random place that didn't even ask you to do so.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That’s what I was saying, Kyle, a white kid crossed a state line to defend properties that aren’t his… and also we have white protesters protesting for BLM.

Whichever way the verdict come out, tension will only rise. White vigilante kids should stay home. Likewise white protesters should also stay home too. Come out to protest when we actually have a WLM movement. BLM just isn’t being advanced either way.

[FaultyMario]

Off topic response to Mario, hydrogen for sure is the best ‘fuel’ because it ain’t fossil fuel and it’s exhaust is water and we’ll never run out of it!

However since EVs require no fuel and if battery tech gets better and better, hydrogen most like will be more expensive and less efficient…

Anyway, congrats with your new locker and ride on, guys!

https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/08/Global-energy-vs.-electricity-breakdown-800x423.png

And yeah, you're missing the point. Air and noise pollution and the use of public space is an issue at the communal level, at that level passenger cars are NEVER going to be as efficient as other modes of transportation.

Technological and societal advance (and environmental degradation) will eventually require higher efficiencies on the use of common resources (water, air and public land), because that has been the trend in industrial society.

Passenger cars will accommodate different uses to what our generation has grown used to, because no matter what type of energetic they use, they will never reach those higher efficiencies. It was the same for our parents' and grandparents' eras, passenger cars were used differently (more or less common depending on where you live, had a different mix of sizes and motorization, et cetera).

[Crazed_Insanity]

Not disagreeing with you, just saying if we’re talking ‘fuel’, hydrogen is probably the highest energy dense, cleanest and most renewable ‘fuel’. :p

However, EV buses or trains will probably be the most energy efficient… EV passenger cars or bikes or turbo lifts will also probably be needed to get people home in the last few miles…

[Rare White Ape]

State and federal politicians seen hanging out with actual neo-nazis who’ve been charged with Nazi crimes… and there’s no outrage.

Not a single peep. Not even in this article.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/far-right-protester-charged-by-counter-terror-police-amid-talk-of-killing-daniel-andrews-20211117-p599qx.html?fbclid=IwAR3ZI76HWyCp59O_6j_KXZlbK3ACV 4VJvSq3LDxEZts-GcZrJjQz0FGUta4

[FaultyMario]

[things] will also probably be needed to get people home in the last few miles…



To show that where trees have roots, men have legs and are each other’s guests. If the potential of civilization is not to be destroyed, we shall have to develop more complex, more provisional loyalties. There are, as Socrates taught, necessary treasons to make the city freer and more open to man. Even a Great Society is a bounded, transient thing compared to the free play of the mind and the anarchic discipline of its dreams.

George Steiner, 1965.

[21Kid]

I'm sorry, what?

LOL

[Crazed_Insanity]

State and federal politicians seen hanging out with actual neo-nazis who’ve been charged with Nazi crimes… and there’s no outrage.

Not a single peep. Not even in this article.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/far-right-protester-charged-by-counter-terror-police-amid-talk-of-killing-daniel-andrews-20211117-p599qx.html?fbclid=IwAR3ZI76HWyCp59O_6j_KXZlbK3ACV 4VJvSq3LDxEZts-GcZrJjQz0FGUta4

Googled ‘theage’ and apparently it’s a left leaning media…, so I’m assuming they just don’t want to conflate the issue? Not all conservative white folks are fascists? I really think white conservative folks need to get along with other white liberal folks better (and vice versa) before the world can really settle down…

Getting BLM to work out is already hard enough, adding white vigilante along with white protesters most definitely wont help anybody regardless whether KR was found guilty or not.

[MR2 Fan]

SUV Drives into crowd in Waukesha, Wisconsin Christmas Parade, killing a few people and injuring 20+ others...rumors there were also shots fired out of the SUV but unclear yet.

Either way, this is totally f-ked up and obviously related to the recent ruling IMO....but too early to tell who and why.

:mad::mad::mad:

[Crazed_Insanity]

:(

[Tom Servo]

It doesn't seem *obviously* related other than, of course, being in Wisconsin.

[MR2 Fan]

It doesn't seem *obviously* related other than, of course, being in Wisconsin.

I take it back, but felt like it upon initial reaction

[Tom Servo]

Totally understandable.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, at the moment it’s probably only obvious that the suspect is not quite mentally right in the head.

[sandydandy]

It looks to be someone trying to flee another crime scene. Decided to plow through a crowd with kids in it. :down:

[Cam]

I flagged a Craigslist post this morning that blamed Black Lives Matter for that. :smh:

[21Kid]

It looks to be someone trying to flee another crime scene. Decided to plow through a crowd with kids in it. :down:

My cousin and his family were at that parade. :(
Thankfully they weren't injured, but it happened right in front of them.

[Crazed_Insanity]

oh man... if I were there and it happened in front of me, I'd probably faint and be super traumatized... I can't imagine what kind of psychological damage this might cause on all the surviving kids there. :(

Anyway, I think it's pretty safe to say that this tragedy is probably not politically motivated. The dude had a history of getting into trouble with the law and running people over. He was just out on bail Friday? For running over a lady?

But of course, people on the other side will probably use it as example against BLM.

[sandydandy]

My cousin and his family were at that parade. :(
Thankfully they weren't injured, but it happened right in front of them. :eek:

Glad they're ok.

[MR2 Fan]

But of course, people on the other side will probably use it as example against BLM.

..it's already happening...of course the only evidence I've seen is that the suspect is "black" so therefore he must be a supporter of "BLM", even though 90% of the protests that BLM take part in are peaceful and only a small group causes issues.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That's always the problem. To them, Kyle is a sweet little angle and the white men that he killed are all criminals anyways. To the left, anyone who sides with Kyle/Trump must be neo Nazis or kkk or freaking racists!

If we only watch the news, Americans look monstrous! However, most americans that I know from either sides are really super friendly and decent people... it's really mind boggling how we get to where we are...

Actually besides just Americans... Europeans are protesting like there's no tomorrow with their new covid restrictions... yeah... don't understand what are they thinking... probably not much...

The end is near man... or I hope that's just a small minority of crazy terrorists too...

[MR2 Fan]

yep again, less than 100 people in the population of 330,000,000 could be causing issues, yet the media covers it like it's half of the U.S.

[Tom Servo]

To them, Kyle is a sweet little angle and the white men that he killed are all criminals anyways.

Well, sounds like someone finds him acute, at any rate.

[Cam]

https://y.yarn.co/c04a55c5-d91f-4888-8153-22ae4d14ea46_text.gif

[Crazed_Insanity]

Sorry, you know how that can happen sometimes… you move out of Los Angleless long enough, you forget how to spell it anymore! :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

My goodness. KR has declared himself a BLM supporter on Fox news!!!

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/11/22/kyle-rittenhouse-says-he-supports-blm-during-fox-news-interview/8716695002/

[neanderthal]

Y'all remember that the DA wasn't going to press charges for murder in the Ahmaud Arbery case?

Then you had jagoffs like Billi spewing that "Kamala is a cop" nonsense.

You think a DA office with no Kamala's and no pressure from the public would've charged those jagoffs?

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don’t quite understand why Kamala and Billi are involved in this case…

Anyway, my faith in our Justice system has been restored a bit.

[Yw-slayer]

yep again, less than 100 people in the population of 330,000,000 could be causing issues, yet the media covers it like it's half of the U.S.

I dunno man. There is the feeling you get when people insist that they will give you a lift as you shouldn't walk 3-4 blocks to your hotel in the San Fran CBD "in case you run into some crazies". Or when you have just arrived in the country and are jet-lagged, then give the finger to some other car in traffic because he's behaving like a maniac, then briefly wonder if you have thereby killed your whole family because he starts shouting and swearing at you and might well have a gun.

[Rare White Ape]

I posted this in the iRacing thread but I'ma post it here too for completeness :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnVBza5hq9s&ab_channel=MickJohnson

[Crazed_Insanity]

I dunno man. There is the feeling you get when people insist that they will give you a lift as you shouldn't walk 3-4 blocks to your hotel in the San Fran CBD "in case you run into some crazies". Or when you have just arrived in the country and are jet-lagged, then give the finger to some other car in traffic because he's behaving like a maniac, then briefly wonder if you have thereby killed your whole family because he starts shouting and swearing at you and might well have a gun.

Yet, you lived to tell us the tales! :p

Anyway, in America, we can freely invite Brandon to go somewhere, in China, Winnie the Pooh has no where to go!

One thing I’ll have to handed to China is their new recent hypersonic test. Although the world hasn’t been able to figure out what the heck they’re trying to do, but it was still impressive. I think that’s about the only thing I’m excited to read about from CCP. But glad you feel so safe at home… in America, we now have string of mob robberies… resulted in our malls being fenced up like military complex during holiday season…

Both nations have their own obvious problems. Whether is Dinero shouting fuck Trump or red necks yelling let’s go Brandon, clearly US has a lot to do to become United once again…

[neanderthal]

When was the united states united? When was it great?

[Crazed_Insanity]

We probably should stop being something in name only, right?

Americans never aimed to be great. That’s the British. :p

Even if US has never been United and sucked all the time, should we continue the tradition? For sure no need to self proclaim as a great nation, but I do want to see our nation to be truly United, not just United because one side lost the civil war…

[Rare White Ape]

Word salad x2.

[Yw-slayer]

I guess he just finished his precious "Thanksgiving Day", so he's feeling extra preachy with all those extra helpings of genocide.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Day isn’t finished just yet! :p Yes, regardless of whether one believes in God or not, it’s still good to have a grateful heart. That’s a scientific fact! Happy thanksgiving everyone! :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh My Cron! Day after thanksgiving has not been well…

It is kinda interesting to see the differences between Trump and Biden. One would immediately close borders between China but takes sweet time with mask mandate and stuff… and the other would take their sweet time shutting down borders against south africa(compare to other nations), but have no problems issuing mask/vaccine mandates… anyway, forget about the new variant for now…

It appears folks only got more extreme after these recent trials… regardless of the verdicts, left continues to believe in the white supremacy/vigilante narrative… that white people is the problem… defunding the police is obviously not enough, we need to defund rich white people!

The right, of course, continued to believe BLM are just bunch of terrorists and those blue BLM sympathizing mask mandating states got what they deserved with these masked mob robberies in their malls… at least these expensive stores are probably insured so we don’t have to worry about anybody losing money?

Anyway, will just have to pray harder for the left and right to be able to someday work more harmoniously together…

[2ndMoparMan]

Praying will never work.

[Crazed_Insanity]

This is the kind of situation where I really don’t know what else to do… :(

All I know is majority of white Americans are not whites supremacists and majority of BLM supporters are not terrorists. It will take some time for Americans to realize this I guess.

At least I think our justice system is still somewhat functional… I am particularly proud of state of Georgia thus far. Hope the southern state can continue to make more progress…

[sandydandy]

Praying will never work. It’s never worked.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh com’on guys! This is not a religious thread okay?

Anyway, back in the days, some Americans must have prayed to be able to be set free and some might be grateful of their free labor… some must’ve also prayed for preservation of our Union and some must’ve also prayed to be freed from oppression from the federal government…

God can’t answer all prayers of course. ;)

[neanderthal]

Andrew Yang siding with white supremacists. Who woulda thunk it?


If they're going to help us transition to a more effective democracy ... I don't need to know what their stance is on things I disagree with."

billi's hero.

[Tom Servo]

That was awfully Quisling of him.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Andrew lost me when he began hiring political consultants to cater to rich Jewish votes when running for NY mayor.

As for that snippet you quoted, it’d be nice to have some more context, but if I can only base things on what you quoted, I don’t disagree with that. Not that I agree with friending enemies of my enemy, but I certainly wouldn’t all of a sudden deny my own cause just because my enemy wants the same thing.

[Tom Servo]

I think the idea is that you also might not welcome their help. I want the trains to run on time, I'm not going to ask the Nazis if they'll help me with that.

[neanderthal]

I think the idea is that you also might not welcome their help. I want the trains to run on time, I'm not going to ask the Nazis if they'll help me with that.

Oh billi understands the distinction, and he can parse between the goal, and the associations needed to achieve that goal.

He just can't do that for Democrats

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don’t have problems with democrats 100% of the time. I just find it stupid that dems can’t agree on living wages.

Anyway, imagine we have an alien invasion and humanity faces extinction. So if white supremacists decided to pick up their guns to fight, you’d just decide to just chill and wait for death because fighting along side your enemy would be more unbearable than death?

I can respect that, but please don’t judge me for wanting to fight for my wife and kid.

[neanderthal]

Lol, your fight is with Democrats because
I find it stupid that Dems can't agree on a living wage even though they're willing to raise the minimum wage, but, as always, no fire for the Republicans who are opposed to raising the minimum wage.


Next level clownery.

[Tom Servo]

I don’t have problems with democrats 100% of the time. I just find it stupid that dems can’t agree on living wages.

Anyway, imagine we have an alien invasion and humanity faces extinction. So if white supremacists decided to pick up their guns to fight, you’d just decide to just chill and wait for death because fighting along side your enemy would be more unbearable than death?

I can respect that, but please don’t judge me for wanting to fight for my wife and kid.


Still not the same thing as seeking or welcoming their help.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If the devil himself is fighting the same fight I’m fighting against, I’m certainly not going to stop fighting just because devil is fighting along side me.

Andrew is definitely not the same guy I fell in love with, I find it hard to believe that he is seeking help from white supremacists.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Lol, your fight is with Democrats because even though they're willing to raise the minimum wage, but, as always, no fire for the Republicans who are opposed to raising the minimum wage.


Next level clownery.

Uh, Manlychin ring a bell? There’s also a senator from Arizona?

I know I know, we have to be pragmatic about that. Let’s face it, this country can only turn right! Thanks to NASCAR racers turning left too much! ;)

[Tom Servo]

If the devil himself is fighting the same fight I’m fighting against, I’m certainly not going to stop fighting just because devil is fighting along side me.

Andrew is definitely not the same guy I fell in love with, I find it hard to believe that he is seeking help from white supremacists.


One final time. Not seeking or welcoming the help of Nazis is not the same thing as stopping fighting for something you believe in. They are two very different things.

I still want the trains to run on time, despite Nazis also wanting that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Is Andrew really welcoming white supremacy with opened arms?

Not how I interpreted that snippet from Neanderthal.

This is my final time too. Discussion over. Otherwise the kid will complain again.

[Rare White Ape]

Word salad, yummy yummy

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LYYGD56CxTw/maxresdefault.jpg

[neanderthal]

I remember staying very clearly for billi just how important that 2016 election was.
Note a serial predator has appointed a rapist, a federalist and a handmaiden to the supreme court and women are about to lose their ability to choose.

But, her emails. Or something.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Obviously you weren't very convincing. There are a lot of Billis out there you failed to convince. Some voted for Trump... some voted 3rd party...

If you want to go back in time, I'd blame Obama for failing to get the anti-establishment sentiment under control. The guy ran on a progressive platform, showing the world how 'established' Hillary was. Yet, after been in office for 8 years, he has became Hillary... and end up endorsing Hillary. Why the fuck did you run against her for? Just let her be president and you can stay a senator and run for WH later!

If Obama were to stay true to more progressive values, Trump would NEVER have his chance.

Regarding the right to choose... I think the solution is simple. Let people choose whether to wear masks and have vaccines or abortions. You can't pick and choose what to mandate and what to choose. Be consistent. If conservatives wish to over turn abortion rights, then please wear masks, get vaccinated and turn in your arms too. Likewise with liberals, once women have the right to choose, let conservative have the right to be stupid by ignoring masks, vaccines and let them have their guns. Supreme court probably should stay neutral and just let states decide what they want to do. Better yet, states stay neutral and just let people decide what to do... and allow them to suffer the consequences of their poor choices so that people can actually learn to make better choices. Enough of babying Americans with warning labels on everything! Regardless of you political affiliation, most americans grew up in blame culture. It's always somebody else's fault and we rarely pick up responsibilities ourselves!

I really think the problem with most liberal politicians is that they love the same thing conservative politicians want(money), but they just act politically correctly pretend as if they're morally superior.

How else can we explain the wealth gap, racial differences in just blue states? Being in a blue state doesn't really make these problems better... often times the problems are worse in blue states! Is it republicans' fault that CA has a richest guy in the world and bunch of homeless people?

Yeah, you can probably blame all that on Billi. Maybe CA will be better without Billi. If blue states can actually show red states that blue is really better, then perhaps dems can become more persuasive to get the reds to turn more purple.

Moral of the story is that we shouldn't be aiming to be more politically correct... let's just aim to be more correct. Period.

[Dicknose]

Huge difference between abortion, guns and masks.

Im not affected by someone I dont know having an abortion. Them having a gun or not wearing a mask can harm or even kill me.

[Yw-slayer]

Huge difference between abortion, guns and masks.

Im not affected by someone I dont know having an abortion. Them having a gun or not wearing a mask can harm or even kill me.

I shouldn't be, but always am, surprised that SOME PEOPLE still need others to explain this.

"Pro-life" lofl.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Life isn’t just about you. If you’re really about protecting life, then you need to protect all lives. That’s what they claim, right? All lives matter?

If you’re serious about pro choice, then likewise, you gotta give everyone real choices and trust them all as you would trust women to make the right choices for themselves and for their babies and for their families and neighbors?

Anyway, just an illustration of what happens when we reduced complex issues down to 2 polarizing sides and then expect a supposedly democratic government to only pick your side and ignore half of the country…

FYI, I thought I’m well known for taking both sides of the issue. I’m both prolife and prochoice. I don’t even understand why we have to pick sides! :p it is also very obvious to me now that conservatives are very prochoice and liberals are way more prolife now that we have a pandemic! Seriously, abortion issue is just so complicated… so my fantasy idea is to just bargain with the conservatives… how about you wear masks and get vaccinated and have stricter gun control laws too? No? Then can we stop trying to put such mandate on women?

[Tom Servo]

I think the reason we pick sides is because the ultimate result, at least politically, is whether or not abortion is outlawed. If it were truly polarized, there would be talk of mandatory abortions.

[dodint]

I'd support an abortion mandate, provided it was universal. Maybe even retroactive?

;)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes, sure glad the left is just trying to mandate choice... if the left were to get their way with retroactive abortion mandate, surely Billi would cease to exist. :p

[FaultyMario]

I'd support an abortion mandate, provided it was universal. Maybe even retroactive?

;)

So you're a socialist, eh?

[Crazed_Insanity]

That’s not socialist, more like socialpath!

[neanderthal]

"just a distraction from the serious discussion about serious issues facing America." - Bernie Sanders on the threat Trump posed to Roe vs Wade, 2016.

[Tom Servo]

This is pretty goddamn bonkers.

Kanye West publicist pressed Georgia election worker to confess to bogus fraud charges (https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/kanye-west-publicist-pressed-georgia-election-worker-confess-bogus-fraud-charges-2021-12-10/)

[neanderthal]

This is pretty goddamn bonkers.

Kanye West publicist pressed Georgia election worker to confess to bogus fraud charges (https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/kanye-west-publicist-pressed-georgia-election-worker-confess-bogus-fraud-charges-2021-12-10/)

Kanye has been trash for a long time.
Did he tell her to do that? Don't know. Don't care. He's trash.

[Crazed_Insanity]

You know, I’m looking forward to the day when media can tell me that they’ve legally nailed Trump, either thrown in jail or at least DQ him for any future office.

I really don’t need to know how scummy that son of a bitch is or how lousy his family or friends or supporters are… report something more of substance that can really change something please. After all those reporting and it’ll really suck if he could still manage to running again in 2024.

[Tom Servo]

Yes, you've made this requirement of yours very clear many times.

[FaultyMario]

Where can one watch The Brink?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes, you've made this requirement of yours very clear many times.

Just a preference, I'm not in a position to require anything. :p

I just can't believe we can't find any way to nab this pussy grabber for this long...

[neanderthal]

You're thinking that a solid, waterproof case against Trump should take just a few ... moments explains why you're part of the "why haven't they done something" faction.

Just for shits and giggles: I was rear ended two/ almost three years ago in mid February. Slam dunk case; inattentive driver on their phone. It's in the police report. The case still hasn't been settled.

I'm not even sure which part of the previous paragraph to highlight. But yeah, lets assume the government can just do whatever it wants as and when it wants.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It’s just mind boggling to me that a pussygrabber could inattentively rear ending so many folks while you know, grabbing something… and yet nothing gets settled for years too! That’s just the way it works and Billi needs to just accept that?

I can understand we couldn’t count on the republicans to impeach and remove the president, but something is definitely wrong with our justice system if a black man can be swiftly executed, yet when others wronged a black man… it’d take years for him to get the justice he deserves…

I guess I’ll just accept that. Hey, luckily I didn’t get rear ended and I don’t really care who’s in WH anyways since nobody I like will ever win anyways… :p

[Yw-slayer]

Man, this guy really lives in La La land. A cynic might even suggest that he's been brainwashed by too many stories about voting and freedom to do anything = AUTOMATICALLY THE BEST

[Crazed_Insanity]

Even if we are the best, there are definitely a lot of room for improvement. I guess I just need to be more understanding and accept it and stop whining… I’ll just let the media do that. It’s probably more enjoyable to listen to them whine for you guys?

Anyway, cant really count on my government so my request to God is to please make sure justice is truly served. Don’t let any one like trump to win WH again and hopefully put him behind bars! And please let Neanderthal settle his case soon. In Jesus’ name I pray.

[neanderthal]

Seeing a lot of "Biden has not forgiven student debt like he promised" on the twitterverse. Do these imbeciles have any idea what a Trump stacked Superior Court would do to such an executive order signed by Biden?

[MR2 Fan]

Looks like the Jan 6th committee is going to get texts from Marjorie Taylor Greene who seems to have been involved in dropping off a backpack bomb or something.

Anyway, I hope the texts are enough to kick her back the dumpster behind Wal-mart the GOP found her from

[neanderthal]

Seeing a lot of "Biden has not forgiven student debt like he promised" on the twitterverse. Do these imbeciles have any idea what a Trump stacked Superior Court would do to such an executive order signed by Biden?

And how would it work anyway? What happens to people who are applying for student loans right now or in the future? Does this become something we do every four/ five years? Ten years?

[neanderthal]

Looks like the Jan 6th committee is going to get texts from Marjorie Taylor Greene who seems to have been involved in dropping off a backpack bomb or something.

Anyway, I hope the texts are enough to kick her back the dumpster behind Wal-mart the GOP found her from

I'm curious about the numbers who's names are not listed? Is this something that is going to be dropped right before the elections? They've got to know who's number those unnamed numbers are for.

[Crazed_Insanity]

And how would it work anyway? What happens to people who are applying for student loans right now or in the future? Does this become something we do every four/ five years? Ten years?

Federal government takes over the student loans, pay off the banks 1st with the free money they can print… and assess a slightly higher tax rate for that borrower in order to slowly get the money back over that persons life time. Couldn’t find a job with your lousy degree? Then the student doesn’t have to worry about paying it back.

Federal government should also keep track of tax generation potentials from various degrees and schools… schools that rips students off really should be shutdown!

[FaultyMario]

i did not know a future u.s. president prevented a nuclear meltdown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalk_River_Laboratories#1952_NRX_incident), almost 70 years ago.

[Tom Servo]

I'm guessing this goes in Politics. This is a really well done article about the collateral damage caused by things like the Wayfair conspiracy, QAnon, and the #SaveTheChildren movement. I think one thing really stood out to me because I heard it a lot when the Wayfair thing was happening - what could it hurt to share it? If it's true then you might stop it, and if it's not, then no harm done. The harm included terrorizing a young girl, an actual victim of trafficking not getting the help she needed, and one person dying.

https://wapo.st/32cjg7m

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ultimate responsibility really should be social media companies? Shouldn’t it be easy to track down the ultimate source of disinformation? It’s one thing if the poster was posting something as a joke, but if there’s a pattern of behavior of posting malicious manipulative contents, then user must be banned! Seniority of the user should be considered as well? Need to restrict contents from new users from going viral?

They must know something is about to go viral, right? Before it gets too out of control, perhaps have a lockdown (stop people from sharing) and take the time to try to verify the contents before allowing it to go viral? Or just tag a warning message?

People are already pretty stupid with masks and vaccines…, probably can’t count on them to stop the spread of misinformation too! :p

In a way, I can’t blame some of those conspiracies because it looks like the only thing they got it wrong was Jeff Epstein didn’t own a pizza parlor! ;)

[Tom Servo]

One of my main takeaways is to try not to share things that you haven't tried to vet. Zari McFadden struck me as like a lot of people - she had good intentions, but it's too damn easy to spread nonsense on social media. People don't trust the mainstream media, but the mainstream media is what has safeguards against this. They're not always perfect, but reporters for major media companies at least try to verify stories before publishing them.

At any rate, I don't necessarily put it up as "someone is to blame", it's a cautionary tale. A lot like the Reddit sleuthing about the Boston marathon bombing.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It’s just not easy for us to try vetting everything… if you see a lost pet, do you share that?

Social media companies should have a better idea of what’s going on and watch out for us, but it’s just not in their interests to do that. They want more things to go viral.

I personally rarely share anything and I don’t even have a Twitter account. So Billi isn’t causing too much trouble in that area! ;)

[neanderthal]

I think the Venn diagram between those who thought madam vice president being a prosecutor was problematic and those wanting Merrick Garland to be a lunatic henchman, is a circle.

Especially when you consider how trials work

[Tom Servo]

It's been a bit, but posting anyway. Was pretty fucked up when Pelosi said that she didn't support any restrictions on stock trading for members of congress, saying it's a free market. It's a mostly-free market that y'all have the power to make adjustments to, and ability to change laws that can drastically alter the playing field for businesses. Heck, just look at the congress people who bought pharma stock as soon as they heard non-public information about projections of how bad covid was going to be, weeks before the rest of us heard about it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, this is the kinda of things that make me think they’re all the same…

I’m all for free market, but they don’t seem to want to reduce these kind of conflict of interests… yeah, we’re a free country, let our president be able to host events in his hotels and country clubs too?

They’re basically encouraging more future trumpian politicians to take advantage of this kind of thinking. Our nation cannot get better until the day politicians can just focus on doing their jobs to make our country better.

If you want to trade stocks, go fucking be a stock trader you fucking assholes on Capitol Hill!

[Yw-slayer]

Ah, but according to Brainwashed Billi, none of these people can do ANY wrong!!!! Lolllll

[Crazed_Insanity]

Joe Biden has finally had enough of Joe Manchin!

Wonder what will the president of the United States do about it… particularly somebody in his own party!

[neanderthal]

Manchin has voted with Democrats MORE than your favorites (the squad.)

[Tom Servo]

I know we're all annoyed by Billi, but it's hard to side with the guy saying he would vote against the bill because poor people would just use the money to buy drugs.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well, he only said that privately so that doesn’t really count. He’s probably also a Republican in private only. So of course he’s really a democrat!

Anyway, so you really like Joe Manchin, huh? Very interesting.

I guess the pragmatic thing to do is to let Joe, not the president, call the shots.

We absolutely need this worthless senator to hold on to our majority in name only.

I honestly don’t understand why he doesn’t join the GOP. ( actually a bit of google would reveal that this loser couldn’t win a gop primary… maybe conservative voters will like him better now?)

If Georgia could turn purple, I have no doubt West Virginia could do likewise… I find it hard to believe WV dem voters all act like conservatives too. Makes no sense.

[Tom Servo]

You might need to clarify who you're attributing liking Joe Manchin to. I'm not sure if that was meant for me or neanderthal.

[Jason]

At the end of the day, there’s 50 Republicans who are against BBB as it stands, and 1 or 2 Democrats that are against it. It’s frustrating to see Manchin and Sinema play spoiler, but we wouldn’t be in this spot if any Republicans crossed the line and voted for it. In Manchin’s case, I’m not a big fan of him, but the reality is, it’s either him or a hardcore GQPer in WV. If that happens, Republicans have the Senate and literally nothing gets done legislatively, and worse, there’s no ability to place federal judges by the Biden admin. As usual, Billi misses the nuance of the situation by a mile.

[FaultyMario]

I know we're all annoyed by Billi, but it's hard to side with the guy saying he would vote against the bill because poor people would just use the money to buy drugs.

so your politicians have finally, finally admitted that the drug problem is one of demand?

Can you stop your policies of interference in our countries? They're really fucking things up down here!

[FaultyMario]

and speaking of demand, agribusiness and manual labor.

:wink:, :wink:

You know it can be done.

[dodint]

Manchin also said he didn't want his constituents to receive more Paid Time Off because they might use it to go hunting.

The horror!

[neanderthal]

I know we're all annoyed by Billi, but it's hard to side with the guy saying he would vote against the bill because poor people would just use the money to buy drugs.

Oh I don't like the fucker (not you billi, although it applies,) I was just pointing out Manchin's voting record with democrats is better than the squads.

Drives a Maserati and lives on a yacht (if my informaion is correct.) Voting against the bill that would help poor people. It definitely fits.

[neanderthal]

At the end of the day, there’s 50 Republicans who are against BBB as it stands, and 1 or 2 Democrats that are against it. It’s frustrating to see Manchin and Sinema play spoiler, but we wouldn’t be in this spot if any Republicans crossed the line and voted for it. In Manchin’s case, I’m not a big fan of him, but the reality is, it’s either him or a hardcore GQPer in WV. If that happens, Republicans have the Senate and literally nothing gets done legislatively, and worse, there’s no ability to place federal judges by the Biden admin. As usual, Billi misses the nuance of the situation by a mile.

This. This. This. This. This.

Not a single GQP politician voted for it. But the story is SineManchin. :rolleyes:
i literally could not roll my eyes harder.

There are 5 very important senate races we need to focus on for next year to neutralise the influence of those two. Winnable if we really buckle down and spread the word/ send money.

[neanderthal]

so your politicians have finally, finally admitted that the drug problem is one of demand?

Can you stop your policies of interference in our countries? They're really fucking things up down here!

We just pulled out of our longest running war and <checks notes> ... increased the budget for the defense department. (we really need a facepalm emoji.)

[dodint]

You won't get the turnout you need. First, though pure apathy. Second, Biden dropped the ball campaigning on student loan relief and then not even going through the motions of trying to implement it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Dems will only get the turn out they need when GQP is fully in charge and fucking things up.

When dems are ‘in charge’, they can’t get anything done because of GQP, SQUAD and Manlychin… so they’ll most likely return power back to GQP.

Anyway, at least you(Neanderthal) also don’t like him. That makes me feel better. (I always like you Swervo, don’t you worry. :p)

Dems are considering way too many nuances and being way too pragmatic…, I don’t really know what they’re good for?

Seriously, what’s the point of holding such senate majority when you still can’t get things done? After the next election, you’ll only end up losing more seats anyway.

[neanderthal]

You won't get the turnout you need. First, though pure apathy. Second, Biden dropped the ball campaigning on student loan relief and then not even going through the motions of trying to implement it.

Apathy. Yes. It's a mid term. Turnout is usually very low in comparison to presidential elections. People are not going to be motivated because they aren't being barraged with negative trump news every day any more.
Student loans. No. Biden didn't campaign on student loans. That's what certain ... factions have alluded is what he said, but during his campaign Biden said he'd seek to cancel up to $10k. Source. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2021/11/15/does-biden-owe-you-student-loan-forgiveness/?sh=183465f6221e)

The recent noise over student debt seemed to be coordinated (IMO) and choreographed. A LOT of tweets in the last week or two including from blue checkmarks, just seemed fishy. "stroke of a/ the pen" appeared in many of those tweets. (But that's not how it works; he has a limited ability to just cancel student debt, but that's another debate.)

Personally I think it's a Russian counter intelligence op on the Democrats. US. Just as last time it was on GQP. Take a thing that's popular but not life changing (unless you're the one with $100k+ in student debt) hype it up until it takes all the air out of the room. People on social media will repost, retweet, and insta these talking points real quick, trying to look cutting edge, or big brained, or whatever. Next thing the media is in on it too, trying to not seem behind the times and out of touch.

Ever notice how the hype around border security, immigrant hordes on the southern border, etc, comes up out of nowhere then just disappear from conversation? A couple of months ago it was the Republicans (and a fuckton of media) complaining about the debt after the BBB passed. A whole lot of noise and hoopla, then ... nothing? Gas prices nearly became a thing too recently, but that flamed out. They tried election integrity after the California recall, etc etc etc. All of these and more will be resurrected again in the lead up to the 2022 elections.

I thinkit's a Russian op.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Are we doing anything about Russian ops? Or are we just going to look into this when the other party’s in charge?

[dodint]

Student loans are in the news again because, despite it being a keystone of his platform, the loan payments resume in a month and he hasn't made an effort towards broad forgiveness. It's not 'fishy' that people don't want to pay for their student loans on Feb 1. It doesn't really affect me as my loans are minuscule, but there will be a large contingent of voters that feel left behind by the failure of that promise. They will take a 'why bother' approach and turnout will reflect.

Insinuating that loan forgiveness was not a factor in the last election is heavily revisionist. $10k, $50k, complete forgiveness, etc. All were entertained and none was delivered to the majority of student loan holders. I assumed that would happen given student loan debt is commoditized and those securities would be worthless if there were meaningful forgiveness. I'm just amused watching them step on this rake; Democrats just can't get out of their own way.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Russian ops will have nothing to leverage against us if we’ve done thing right to begin with. But considering how polarized we are, this makes Russian ops’ job much easier…

That theory aside, dems really need to solve problems. Before that, they need clearer vision. What kind of America do they see in the future?

If pragmatism is really their vision, they can forget about vaccine mandates and fighting climate change or helping the poor… because clearly dems just can’t get any of that done. That’s just the reality of the situation.

Dem needs to be more inspiring, rather than more pragmatic… such as allowing politicians to fucking trade stocks. WTF man?!?! Blue states also need to narrow the gaps between rich and poor rather than just blaming the capitalist pigs in red states. Kicking Elon off to Texas is a step in the right direction I guess…, but it’d be better to see less homeless encampments in states like CA and WA.

I seriously want to see the dems succeed but I’m just so demoralized by what I’m seeing.

[neanderthal]

Student loans are in the news again because, despite it being a keystone of his platform, the loan payments resume in a month and he hasn't made an effort towards broad forgiveness. It's not 'fishy' that people don't want to pay for their student loans on Feb 1. It doesn't really affect me as my loans are minuscule, but there will be a large contingent of voters that feel left behind by the failure of that promise. They will take a 'why bother' approach and turnout will reflect.

Insinuating that loan forgiveness was not a factor in the last election is heavily revisionist. $10k, $50k, complete forgiveness, etc. All were entertained and none was delivered to the majority of student loan holders. I assumed that would happen given student loan debt is commoditized and those securities would be worthless if there were meaningful forgiveness. I'm just amused watching them step on this rake; Democrats just can't get out of their own way.

I'm not saying he DIDN'T say anything about student debt. He did, and the only actual number i've found from Biden's mouth on the campaign trail, is that $10k number. Every. single Democratic. candidate. campaigned with some form of student debt cancellation as part of their platform, and I think what has happened is that people have glommed onto whatever they heard and now ascribed it to Biden.

I recently saw nearly identical tweets on the subject from AOC, Cori Bush, the cute Somali one who's name I can't remember right now, Jamaal Brown, Ayanna Pressley all on the same day. Slight differences to the wording. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM can write legislation for Biden to sign right now, and it could be law, but what i've seen is social media activity, media appearances etc. I don't know of a single Democratic politician who has spoken out against it, so i'm not seeing what the hold up is from these loud mouths. Is it that Pelosi isn't prioritising it in Congress? I don't know. But nothing is stopping them, and they're the loudest champions of it. Where's their bill?

An executive action would only have some effect. Trump stacked the SC. How far would that executive action go in front of that Supreme Court? Then, when it invariably fails at the SC (which is why I suspect "nothing" is being done) all you'd hear from many of the same people is "Democrats can't pass meaningful legislation" and then you'd get the same exact apathy come election time. Because the GOP would oppose, of course, and it's just easier to repeat their three word sentences they bandy about as their policy (build the wall, lock her up, back the blue, and whatever shit they kept repeating about Obamacare. easy examples.) than to actually discuss real policy.
And that's part of my problem with what I call the "do something" caucus; they don't exactly ask serious questions about how things get done. Look at billis trite answer to my same question on how this would play out. He threw together a few not completely incoherent sentences and hit post, probably patting himself on the back for having done a great job. I looked at it and said "I honestly can't be bothered to respond to this; it's 20FN21 and google is still free, and this ... dogs vomit is not worth responding to."
As an example: despite having a bad healthcare system at the time it was enacted people believed that Obamacare was worse than the status quo. Because the GOP said so. And Faux News. So much that in the immediate aftermath of it's passing it was less popular than 50%.

Actually, now that I think about it, (I was actually going somewhere with that Obamacare example but got rudely interupted by this thought) I think the squad knows an executive action won't work and that's why they won't write meaningful legislstion themselves. Can't slander the Democrats as being too moderate/ centrist/ corporatist/ whatever other slander billi likes throwing around, if they're actually getting shit done. Maybe i'm just a cynic.

[neanderthal]

Russian ops will have nothing to leverage against us if we’ve done thing right to begin with. But considering how polarized we are, this makes Russian ops’ job much easier…

That theory aside, dems really need to solve problems. Before that, they need clearer vision. What kind of America do they see in the future?

If pragmatism is really their vision, they can forget about vaccine mandates and fighting climate change or helping the poor… because clearly dems just can’t get any of that done. That’s just the reality of the situation.

Dem needs to be more inspiring, rather than more pragmatic… such as allowing politicians to fucking trade stocks. WTF man?!?! Blue states also need to narrow the gaps between rich and poor rather than just blaming the capitalist pigs in red states. Kicking Elon off to Texas is a step in the right direction I guess…, but it’d be better to see less homeless encampments in states like CA and WA.

I seriously want to see the dems succeed but I’m just so demoralized by what I’m seeing.

Bernie was really inspiring. Really fucking inspiring. I listened to him every friday morning on the Thom Hartmann show on am radio talking about his ideas and our problems and shortcomings as a nation. Tell me again what legislation he's written, and what he's got passed, and more importantly HOW it improved everybody's lives. I'll wait.

There's a big fucking difference between talking, and actually doing something. Something I wish you "do something!" people understood!!!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Problem is nobody likes Bernie. That’s why he couldn’t pass any laws! It’s not just GOP who thinks he’s an evil socialist, even dems think he’s a crazy old man. Forget about DNC and Hillary trying to shut him out, even last time, DNC has to pull an coordinated stunt collectively to stop Bernie from winning the primary.

Anyway, in retrospect, Biden is probably the better option to beat trump. Sanders best chance was probably 2016.

Anyway, I just think dems should’ve leverage the will of the people to pressure those in congress better. I can’t believe most in WV are against raising the min wage back then.

Bernie does have a much clearer and unwavering vision. Unfortunately DNC does not share the same vision. They just want to be more pragmatic… be able to trade their stocks on the job.

I’m really hoping this stunt pulled by Manchin will pissed Biden off enough to stop being so pragmatic. Ending a forever war was not the most pragmatic thing to do. So I’m hoping he’ll do something awesome like that again. The most powerful man in the US should be Joe Biden, not Joe Manchin.

[neanderthal]

https://twitter.com/DavidYankovich/status/1473452941986123778?t=zead9xyRWefXYxSIXh-tKQ&s=19

[Rare White Ape]

https://twitter.com/DavidYankovich/status/1473452941986123778?t=zead9xyRWefXYxSIXh-tKQ&s=19

Not hard to do when the previous guy basically only set out to wreck shit.

I'm not trying to put a dimmer on this here, but perspective is often useful when talking about a President's first year in office, and I think Biden's is unprecedented not because of the success he's had, but because of how bad Trump was.

[neanderthal]

Not hard to do when the previous guy basically only set out to wreck shit.

I'm not trying to put a dimmer on this here, but perspective is often useful when talking about a President's first year in office, and I think Biden's is unprecedented not because of the success he's had, but because of how bad Trump was.

That's all true but Biden's record still compares favorably to the first year of pretty much all the presidents, especially with the openly hostile opposition we've been seeing since President Obama was elected.

[dodint]

I might have mentioned it here before but Biden actually vacating Afghanistan earns him a second vote from me.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Interesting that I felt the same way. I was really regretting voting for Biden when they failed to raise the min wage, but ending the forever war was the single issue that gained a lot of respect from me. He will have my support again just because of that.

Of course I’m hoping he’ll be able to gain more support from rest of America before 2024… com’on! Let’s go Biden! ;)

[neanderthal]

You spelled Brandon wrong.

[neanderthal]

I might have mentioned it here before but Biden actually vacating Afghanistan earns him a second vote from me.

Yuuuuge!!!

[Crazed_Insanity]

You spelled Brandon wrong.

Who cares about that nascar driver! :p

[Yw-slayer]

Ho, how is the going of the pagan festival that was co-opted by a subsequent religion and celebrated as The Most Important Thing Ever (even more important than November Genocide Day) by Billi and his Brainwashed Bros?

[FaultyMario]

It's not really pagan, dude.

Also, calling indigenous religious "pagan" is a bit... barbaric.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Baby Jesus is going well for 2021 year now. Thanks for asking YW!

[Rikadyn]

Billi got that living rent free thing goin on in YWs head...

[Tom Servo]

Speaking as a non-religious descendent of pagans, the term doesn't bug me, fwiw.

[FaultyMario]

Of course it doesn't, you Vandal.

[Tom Servo]

lol

[Rare White Ape]

'Paganism' was a term applied to non-Judaic religions during Roman times in Europe. It became a pejorative term because the ruling class practiced Christianity and the poorer rural people kept following their pre-Christian religions. It remains that Christianity is a religion of power and oppression.

'Barbarism' is a term coined in ancient Greece, and was used to describe people who were not Greek. The word was used to make fun of the language that people outside of the contemporary centre of civilisation used, because they were considered to be talking gibberish, and so they called them 'bar-bars'. It is a surviving example of racism from European history.

[Tom Servo]

I am literally wearing a shirt with a drawing of Baphomet surrounded by kittens, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Yw-slayer]

Speaking as a non-religious descendent of pagans, the term doesn't bug me, fwiw.

It's not meant to bug YOU, man. Lol

[Crazed_Insanity]

'Paganism' was a term applied to non-Judaic religions during Roman times in Europe. It became a pejorative term because the ruling class practiced Christianity and the poorer rural people kept following their pre-Christian religions. It remains that Christianity is a religion of power and oppression.

'Barbarism' is a term coined in ancient Greece, and was used to describe people who were not Greek. The word was used to make fun of the language that people outside of the contemporary centre of civilisation used, because they were considered to be talking gibberish, and so they called them 'bar-bars'. It is a surviving example of racism from European history.
Barbarians were still white Europeans, right? So how was that racism? Probably more like classism?

Anyway, for sure I didn’t realized the teen pagan has became politically incorrect? It does feel outdated though. Nobody would self identify as a pagan nowadays except maybe Swervo? But then again he’s probably too high class to be one. :p

[FaultyMario]

The iron age world was not in Europe proper, you're confusing pre-common era Greeks with post-classical Adriatics.

There's 400 years in between.

[FaultyMario]

It's like when they try to say that dynasty Egyptians were black.

Yeah, sure, some of their elites were dark-skinned Africans, but in different times they also had Levantine and Balkan and Anatolian rulers. The fucking thing lasted for three thousand years.

[Tom Servo]

It's not meant to bug YOU, man. Lol

Well, *now* I'm offended.

[Yw-slayer]

Well, *now* I'm offended.

It's not all about you, SNOWFLAKE???!??!?!!?!?!@11/23/121/!?1/?!!

[Rikadyn]

Barbarians were still white Europeans, right? So how was that racism? Probably more like classism?


Sorta, seeing as white is not really a race, after all the goalposts for what was white has moved since its creation (Italian and Irish were at times not considered white)

One could also be lead to argue that the whole modern concept of race is simply a gross generalization for the benefit of manipulation from "in group/out group" politics usually centered from the standpoint of the English and other wasps

[Rare White Ape]

Barbarians were still white Europeans, right? So how was that racism? Probably more like classism?

It was used to describe all non Greeks. This included people from Africa and the Middle East.

[Fiat500]

The word was used to make fun of the language that people outside of the contemporary centre of civilisation used, because they were considered to be talking gibberish, and so they called them 'bar-bars'.

The modern English equivalent would be "Blah-blahians", I suppose.

The ancient Greeks might have remarked "That's not Greek to me!"...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Not sure if this should be pandemic or political…, but Biden is being blasted for not preparing enough on the Covid testing front.

Of course Americans are to be blamed too for vaccine resistance. We don’t want a vaccine mandate, but we only need to test?

Anyway, knowing that vaccinated folks could get infected, we really should’ve had more test kits available as well. Biden did screw up in this one and it’ll likely hurt politically…

Anyway, I wonder who’s really in charge at fighting Covid in our nation. I mean a real scientist who’s really thinking of the greater good of our nation, not trying to make calculated political decisions like Dr. Fauci. Biden needs to take on more responsibilities and listen to the right people to make the right decisions scientifically rather continue to make political decisions. Sigh…

If you’re going to push for a vaccine mandate, you better cover your ass in other areas as well so that the nation could really beat Covid.

[George]

I vote for fewer current events and more history discussion! :up:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Speaking of historically, has america really been less polarized in the past?

Personally, I really never paid much attention to politics nor had any dislike of GOP until W came to power. When I was a kid, I don’t remember hating Republican presidents. Had no problems with Reagan nor sr Bush… but since W came to be, I can’t really stand the party anymore. I suspect that’s just me, but historically US has been pretty divided along party line for a long long time, right?

[neanderthal]

Not sure if this should be pandemic or political…, but Biden is being blasted for not preparing enough on the Covid testing front.

Of course Americans are to be blamed too for vaccine resistance. We don’t want a vaccine mandate, but we only need to test?

Anyway, knowing that vaccinated folks could get infected, we really should’ve had more test kits available as well. Biden did screw up in this one and it’ll likely hurt politically…

Anyway, I wonder who’s really in charge at fighting Covid in our nation. I mean a real scientist who’s really thinking of the greater good of our nation, not trying to make calculated political decisions like Dr. Fauci. Biden needs to take on more responsibilities and listen to the right people to make the right decisions scientifically rather continue to make political decisions. Sigh…

If you’re going to push for a vaccine mandate, you better cover your ass in other areas as well so that the nation could really beat Covid.

Biden said "get vaccinated" a very long time ago. A long fucking time ago. He didn't say it as a political thing.
Here you are, of course, pretending that was the thing.

You're beyond tiresome.

[Rare White Ape]

Hey don't attack a man for the last thing he uncritically read in TEH NEWZ.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Everyone’s tired dude.

It just seems like regardless who’s in charge, our government doesn’t follow the scientific approach…

The same head of WHO is still in charge. Our own dr Fauci is also still in charge…

Remember his white lies about masks don’t help(because he wanted to save masks for healthcare workers)? He also kept on changing goal post about %population needed to reach herd immunity… there’s also continue debate of whether Fauci funded gain of function research. I don’t want to believe Rand Paul but given Fauci’s track record so far, I don’t believe him either.

Whether it’s WHO or Fauci, they don’t seem to believe in better safe than sorry. Their decisions had always included political elements.

Biden relying on Fauci fully probably would end up hurting himself more IMHO.

[Yw-slayer]

In for the trollolololollol

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, CNN is trolling Biden!

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/12/28/politics/biden-covid-testing-shortage/index.html

Anyway, it seems we’re always caught unprepared for some reason. Not have enough masks at 1st, not having enough vaccines, now not having enough tests…

I guess hindsight is always 20/20, most, including myself, thought we’re near the end of the pandemic, why bother wasting money on tests…

I guess just like WWII, we were not prepared at 1st. This pandemic war will probably be a long one too, but I’m sure eventually we’ll prevail. I just hope and pray GQP won’t have the opportunity to grab power again… hope Biden will have the wisdom and courage to do what’s right and not be swayed by advisers… he has proven capable of doing that by pulling out that forever war. Now fully engage in this pandemic war!

[Tom Servo]

Marjorie Taylor Greene got her 5th strike on Twitter over Covid misinformation and has now been permanently suspended.

Now, does she join Gab, GETTR, Trump's upcoming social media, or FrankSpeech?

[Rare White Ape]

The ban was for her personal account and she still has a @RepMTG account.

That's a cesspool where she promotes division and animosity towards 'tEh LefT' and people who are 'UnAmErIcAn' but doesn't appear to talk much about coronavirus misinformation. At least from my quick scroll of the account.

[Tom Servo]

True, though as far as I know she had more followers for her personal one (and honestly probably writes more of the tweets, I'd be at least some of her RepMTG account is written by staff.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don’t like her nor trump, but I still prefer free speech. Why can’t we just tag something as possible false info, especially for a personal account?

Also, with Trump banned, how will he tell the insurrectionists to go home next time around?

[Tom Servo]

Twitter also has free speech, and they exercised it.

[Rare White Ape]

Imagine thinking that free speech applies to private companies :rolleyes:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just saying it was nice to have trump be able to tell folks to go home.

I suppose we could always have a left Twitter and a right Twitter just like we have different news media companies… and we can all just comfortable live in our bubbles! :)

Also, I just think dis/mis-info should be cleared up rather than just hushed.

[Tom Servo]

The problem is the same platform was also what Trump used to get the people to come out in the first place. Also, don't forget, he was *the President of the United States* at the time. Like, he could basically get every TV channel and radio station to broadcast the message to go home pretty easily. He didn't need Twitter for that.

And while I agree with you that it's good to clear up mis-info, have you been on social media lately? While I do think the warning labels are helping, I also don't think that you have to keep giving a megaphone to people who continually refuse to stop blatantly lying.

FWIW, this was her 5th strike. The 4th strike was a week suspension. She'd been warned, she knew exactly what not to do to avoid being banned, and she did it anyway.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I really couldn’t care less about her or Trump. Just like Bernie, he for sure doesn’t like trump but just can’t agree with banning the president like that.

As you said, the president has plenty of other channels available to him anyway… so what if he’s only banned on Twitter? :p

Reality is that damage has already been done. Mis-info is already spread… ban will only make his/her supporters feel as if tech companies/dems are trying to cover up the ‘truth’.

Just flag it and let readers make up their own minds!

Anyway, Twitter does have the right to run their business the way they want. Not trying to tell them what to do, but I wish they could just flag questionable contents…, and eventually compile some sort of truthiness review rating of a particular user… like how often is this person wrong about things since this users 1st tweet.

[MR2 Fan]

The U.S. Senate is going to vote on killing the filibuster soon apparently. So does that mean it still requires Manchin and Sinema to vote yes on it, because that will be a useless endeavor

[Tom Servo]

Devin Nunes has resigned from the house. His cow will be devastated.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Dude resigned to go work for Trump?!?!

Oh please God… Protect our nation…

[Jason]

The U.S. Senate is going to vote on killing the filibuster soon apparently. So does that mean it still requires Manchin and Sinema to vote yes on it, because that will be a useless endeavor

Yeah, there's 2-3 Dems that are against killing the filibuster.

I'm split on how I feel about it. When "we" are in power, yeah I want it gone, because it could help get things done. But when "we" aren't in power, I'm terrified of not having the ability to stop certain things.

The filibuster basically ensures almost nothing gets done, for better or worse :/

[Crazed_Insanity]

My sentiments exactly. Given how corrupt our politicians are, I'd rather have nothing done.

Also, considering how 50 dem senators cannot even agree on what to do, I don't understand how ending the filibuster will help the party improve its performance?

Maybe it's time for a different strategy? To scale down BBB... to include just the things that conservative voters want. That way if republican congressmen voted FOR Biden's BBB, they'll look weak and like socialist enablers, but if they reject the bill, then conservative voters would get mad at GOP? ;)

Dems really need to think of the people more. Filibuster does nothing for the people either way. You know dems will lose seats in congress so even if we succeed at ending the filibuster, it'll only end up helping the GQP. Stop wasting political resources like that. Do something good for the people... even if they're conservative people. Forget about them conservative politicians. Figure out what conservative voters want and win some votes from them. At least more swing votes. Forget about Joe Manchin, but focus in on what WV voters really want.

As for all the green/climate fighting stuffs... as US is getting pounded by mother nature again and again, hopefully some conservative minds will eventually give more support?

Seriously, during Biden's term, should the focus be more on reducing carbon emissions or to fix crumbling roads and bridges now? No need to get absolutely nothing done during his term. Get the basic bipartisan stuffs done and out of the way 1st! Can't get anymore 'pragmatic' than that.

I think even Bernie is for ending filibusters, but wasn't it the filibuster move that he pulled back in 2010 that gained him national spot light? ;) Dems really just need to strategize on how to gain more votes/seats rather than how to change rules of the game like GOP. Obviously dems are not better than the GOP at it. Play to your own strength. Do the will of the people... and surely you'll win more.

[MR2 Fan]

Attorney General Merrick Garland gave updates on the Jan 6 investigation:

- issued 5,000+ subpoenas and search warrants
- seized 2,000 devices
- reviewed 20,000 hours of video footage
- received over 300,000+ tips from "ordinary citizens"
- arrested & charged 725 defendants

[Crazed_Insanity]

Who really cares about those 725 folks that they charged and arrested? There will be plenty more where that came from if we can’t nail the most important one!

2 impeachments, multiple investigations, lost the election in 2020… We are no closer to ending him. Those who resigned in protest of the Trump admin have now all disappeared or have to submit and lick his balls again because Trump remained a central influential figure of the Republican Party!

Come 2024, I suspect we need to brace ourselves as we make America take a dump again…

[MR2 Fan]

because those 725 people talk and turn in others

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hope they can help turn in the ONE soon or otherwise next time around, there might be 725,000 people...

In retrospect, I wonder who screwed up Trump's plan. Something must've gone wrong for him to tell people to give up and go home? Probably Mike Pence threw a wrench in it...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, besides fighting Trump and the pandemic and climate change..., perhaps there's something else we need to fight first?

I can' speak for other cities, but I'm seeing with my own eyes the number of homeless people living in Los Angeles and Seattle. These are not people who were priced out of a living space. Affordable housing won't solve their problems! Most of these people living in tents or run down RVs are drug addicts or have mental issues. Maybe only very few are living like that by choice.

With very lax laws, these homeless folks are committing more crimes in order to feed their addictions. Cops are very demoralized now because when they make arrests, most shop lifters and drug dealers will be quickly released again. Not to mention lots of calls to further defund the police. No wonder things have progressed to have so many flash mob robberies. Yeah, you can't storm the capitol hill, but it's okay to grab some stuffs from the mall!

Maybe redder states don't have as much homeless problems, but surely they also have plenty of drug problems too.

Point is people are suffering and I think liberal politicians and the elites are more worried about 'climate change' than helping ordinary citizens out. Not that we shouldn't fight climate change, but should more and more americans fall into homelessness and addictions?

Trump will probably pull the same strategy come 2024. My fellow sorry ass Americans! Vote for me! What have you got to lose?

Democrats, think of the 'people' and try your best to help them. It's the only path to gaining more seats in congress. It's the most pragmatic thing you can do. I hope we can really start to Build Back our homes, neighborhoods, cities, states, nation, and planet Better.

[Tom Servo]

Part of the problem is that the solution almost always comes back to criminalizing it, which I feel like a lot of your post alludes to. The cops being demoralized, that there's no punishment, that it's sparking crime, etc etc. Our city council just passed an ordinance basically criminalizing being homeless, and one of the few councilmembers that's been doing real work to try to get people housed and into treatment programs is being targeted for a recall by the people around here.

It's a lot easier to sell the idea that you'll just round homeless people up and ship them off somewhere. A good chunk of the people on my local Nextdoor advocate literally for that, they think all the homeless people in LA should be shipped off to Lancaster.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I saw a documentary call Seattle is dying... that reporter showed Rhode Island has implemented some sort of intervention program. Yes, we do need to criminalize criminals. No getting around that.

At least in that documentary, all... or at least all those they showed indicated that they are grateful to be arrested and "rescued" off of the streets. They will end up have lifetime supplies of anti-drug drugs to fend off their addictions and rehabilitated back into society living relatively normal lives. For people with mental issues, surely it'll be better for them to be in a mental institution rather than be running around aimlessly in the city?

All of them, who were interviewed, believe that had the police never intervened, they'll probably all be dead soon. Documentary claimed that the program had a 93% success rate. Out of 100 homeless folks, 93 able to live normal lives is a pretty amazing statistic.

Currently at West Coast, a lot of homeless people probably just die off on the streets... and then more on the fringes end up taking their place...

Anyway, my point is, yes, fighting climate change for our future generations is a noble goal and right thing to do, but when there are so many in our current generation suffering and dying, why would they participate in saving the planet when they themselves are in serious trouble? Ignoring them and attempt to reduce carbon emissions can't possibly be the path forward.

This is probably also the main reason why somebody like Trump could attain power.

If we could solve this people problem, Trump would never have a chance I think... As more people living above poverty line, we'll also have more people interested in saving the planet. If we want to be pragmatic, we ought to solve problems for people. Who the hell cares about filibuster? So what if you get rid of it or not? Even if dems got rid of it, it'll probably only end up helping Republicans do their job better and easier.

[Rare White Ape]

I'm sure the residents of Lancaster will love to have bus loads of homeless people placed on their doorsteps.

Various governments in Australia have been trying to deal with homeless people, but the situation is more nuanced than just sending them to homes or hospitals or prisons.

One idea was to revamp dilapidated city streets by adding a couple of stories of housing apartments above shopfronts. You could build public housing, but then how do you decide who gets to be given an apartment? And how do you make sure that people aren't freeloading and adding to their wealth unfairly?

So that requires a significant investment in service infrastructure, which is already hamstrung by government regulation and inefficiency.

And if you build additional housing, what if the homeless people that they are targeted toward don't want to take them up? A large proportion of the 'homeless problem' is that mental illness prevents a lot of people from being able to make these decisions. If you take someone off the street and give them a home, how do you know if they'll be OK? Will they be able to manage by themselves? Do you force them off the street and into hospital when they cannot make the decision to do so by themselves?

What if they aren't mentally ill and just want to live on the street? Some people just prefer that, and the 'normal' people in society are uncomfortable with it. How close do we get to kidnapping them without legal grounds? Because it could easily become kidnapping when you think about it. It's merely one step away from wrongful imprisonment. You could make a law that says being homeless is a criminal act, but where's the defence if homeless people have no choice but to be homeless?

Remember, homeless people are people too, and sometimes the attempt to help them will impinge on their rights to be left alone. How much of that is just for the aesthetic convenience of normal people?

[Rare White Ape]

Anyway, my point is, yes, fighting climate change for our future generations is a noble goal and right thing to do, but when there are so many in our current generation suffering and dying, why would they participate in saving the planet when they themselves are in serious trouble? Ignoring them and attempt to reduce carbon emissions can't possibly be the path forward.

This is probably also the main reason why somebody like Trump could attain power.

If we could solve this people problem, Trump would never have a chance I think... As more people living above poverty line, we'll also have more people interested in saving the planet. If we want to be pragmatic, we ought to solve problems for people. Who the hell cares about filibuster? So what if you get rid of it or not? Even if dems got rid of it, it'll probably only end up helping Republicans do their job better and easier.

I'm sure I've told you this before, but the whole "we can't have X because we still need to fix Y" is widely regarded as nonsense. It is such a bullshit reason for not doing things, and you need to let go of it.

It is why governments have separate departments to deal with separate parts of society.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Biden/progressives wants us to go more green, but there’s little political will on the right for it.

So unless Manchin changes his mind, Build Back Better will remain rhetoric… and nothing will get done and they’ll re-elect trump and see things go further downhill…

Or we can really build back better our roads and bridges and our people somehow. When people are drowning in addictions and some sick and tired of seeing homeless and robbers roam the streets, nobody will care about earth.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'm sure the residents of Lancaster will love to have bus loads of homeless people placed on their doorsteps.

Various governments in Australia have been trying to deal with homeless people, but the situation is more nuanced than just sending them to homes or hospitals or prisons.

One idea was to revamp dilapidated city streets by adding a couple of stories of housing apartments above shopfronts. You could build public housing, but then how do you decide who gets to be given an apartment? And how do you make sure that people aren't freeloading and adding to their wealth unfairly?

So that requires a significant investment in service infrastructure, which is already hamstrung by government regulation and inefficiency.

And if you build additional housing, what if the homeless people that they are targeted toward don't want to take them up? A large proportion of the 'homeless problem' is that mental illness prevents a lot of people from being able to make these decisions. If you take someone off the street and give them a home, how do you know if they'll be OK? Will they be able to manage by themselves? Do you force them off the street and into hospital when they cannot make the decision to do so by themselves?

What if they aren't mentally ill and just want to live on the street? Some people just prefer that, and the 'normal' people in society are uncomfortable with it. How close do we get to kidnapping them without legal grounds? Because it could easily become kidnapping when you think about it. It's merely one step away from wrongful imprisonment. You could make a law that says being homeless is a criminal act, but where's the defence if homeless people have no choice but to be homeless?

Remember, homeless people are people too, and sometimes the attempt to help them will impinge on their rights to be left alone. How much of that is just for the aesthetic convenience of normal people?

Anyway, not proposing we criminalize homelessness. If you can truly live like a hippie Jesus, more power to you. However, if you sell/possess drugs or stole or robbed, then you should be treated as a criminal… but it really is just a way to intervene into their lives to help them kick their addiction and get back on their feet.

At least according to my theological belief, the entire world fell as Adam and Eve screwed up. Jesus didn’t come to save planet earth, but to save the people 1st.

When people are fixed, planet earth will naturally get better.

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, I'm not sure where he got this zero-sum game between climate change and homeless policy, but it's another one of those weird things he gets hung up on and, when we mostly ignore the silly part, he brings it up over and over again until one of us mentions it and then he gets all mad at us for getting hung up on it.

I'm choosing to ignore that part.

The thing about your documentary is - why does it have to be the police to intervene? Why not hire more people who specialize in social work and outreach to the homeless? That's what the city council member in the district next to mine has done, then the LA Sheriff came along and started sticking their nose in it and suddenly a bunch of people they'd gained the trust of just went back on the streets rather than continue through the process of moving into bridge housing. I was hanging out outside a grocery store waiting for Michele to do some shopping and watching our bikes, and heard a couple of homeless people talking. One said he'd been offered shelter, but he just felt safer on the street so he wouldn't go. Having people who's job it is to gain the trust of people and put them in better situations seems like the right way to go for me, homeless people do not trust cops, and cops are generally not there to help homeless people.

Right now, all the cops do here is show up to an encampment, take most of everyone's stuff, and then tell them to go somewhere else. They go a couple blocks away, start amassing stuff again, and it just happens over and over, and in the meantime we're paying these cops to just move the problem around. Arresting them is even more money and resources that could go to actually helping people.

I know I've told this story before, but my aunt works with a government program in Norway that will just *get you housing* if you can't afford it. It's a small apartment, but it's shelter with heat and an address that you can use when looking for work. They have a much smaller homeless population there per capita than we do, despite being a very expensive place to live, and I'm willing to bet it costs less than the equivalent cost of the police and incarceration if you just chose to start arresting people for being homeless.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Again, I'm not proposing we arrest homeless people. You can get hung up on stuff too you know.

I do want to police to start intervening when crime happens. When people are committing crime, we shouldn't just pretend that doesn't matter.

Chances are people addicted on drugs would not voluntarily seek help because they're not thinking straight. Of course it is definitely possible for some to realize they need help when they hit rock bottom...; however, the problem we have now is that where can they go to seek help right now?

At the moment, it's not as simple as helping them find affordable housing. Addicts need help to kick their habit. Not to mention if you're actually mentally impaired, what would affordable housing do for them?

We need a comprehensive program to intervene and help them out.

In red states, sure, there are less homeless, but for sure plenty of addicts too. Of course we can't just go arrest addicts..., but if they do commit a crime, then it'd be a good reason for police to intervene... and help them.

Of course we also need to stop whatever drugs being sold to them too.

This cannot just be arresting and charging of low level criminals or rioters and locking them all up and completely ignore the assholes on top.

Regardless of which level you are, people need to be held responsible for their actions. You can't rob or steal to sell/buy drugs and get away with that. Not the dealers and especially not big pharma.

Our society has the tendency to be harsh with lower level folks, but people on top are rarely held accountable. People need to be held accountable for their actions period. Justice department needs to be able to deliver justice for ALL!

[Tom Servo]

As far as red vs. blue cities, It may not be quite as one-sided as you think. Anchorage, AK is #6 for per capita homelessness for major US cities. The top five cities are all pretty left-leaning, but San Francisco, for instance, isn't in the top 5. http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.html

My main point is - police aren't necessarily the ones who should be intervening. They're likely not the best ones to be intervening. I think we both agree there should be intervention, I just think that police, as well trained as they are, aren't trained that well for this task. If anything, I think it's treating the symptom, not the disease.

In the meantime, police forces are expensive. LAPD is 30% of the entire city budget, and 50% of discretionary (what hasn't already been earmarked). People who might be better suited to this work might cost less which, hey, frees us up to focus on other things like climate change!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Police should be allowed to stop or fight crime. For sure I’m not asking cops to intervene just because somebody has no home or somebody who’s dark skinned. Also, even if crime is in progress, police shouldn’t shoot or kneel to kill, but to protect and serve this segment of the population who desperately need help. Intervene to rescue them, not to lock’em up and throw away the keys.

Anyway, I think it’s obvious blue cities has more pronounced problems with homelessness and things are only getting worse… however if we look at it as a drug problem, then there are plenty of rednecks hooked on painkillers in red cities. People on both sides are suffering and dying in this unbelievably rich nation of ours.

Yet neither party has the political will to help these Americans out.

At least Democratic Party has some political will to save the planet, but they just don’t have the votes they need even with a majority.

So I guess we’ll just have to wait and not build anything back better and pray for Trump to make America great again?

I guess I don’t absolutely need cops to do the interventions, but reality is that I don’t think west coast has any programs in place like Rhode Island?

Also with all these flash mob robberies, do you really want to further defund the police? Actually police are defunding and retiring early themselves because what’s the point of working hard catching them if they’ll only be quickly released by the courts so that they can go rob again!