F1: Pirelli Proposing Switch To 18" Wheels

[Kchrpm]

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/07/09/pirelli-testing-low-profile-tires-for-18-inch-formula-one-wheels/

http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/9b4b3eaf7d2a2dc5a8120bde9b6259c4/200383701/Pirelli_18inchestyre-1.jpg


Pirelli's proposed solution is what you see pictured here. It wants to increase the wheel size to 18 inches and fit lower-profile tires to them in order to make them more relevant to road car tires, while also increasing sidewall rigidity to the betterment of handling – even if that would decrease the size of Pirelli's branding.

Of course, doing so would require a vastly different suspension setup if not an entire redesign, since the engineers take the sidewall compliance into account when designing the cars. But Pirelli is proposing the idea to the teams just the same, and will test the idea using a Lotus F1 car at the upcoming mid-season test at Silverstone. Watch the video animation below to see what Pirelli has in mind.


http://youtu.be/FwbJSTG_Itc

[Kchrpm]

And now actual pictures

http://jalopnik.com/these-18-inch-wheels-look-wild-on-the-lotus-f1-car-1602289481

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/jv0eqzke102gm9mh0bui.jpg

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/ndpecgjeskwk7wobbpq5.jpg

[Mr Wonder]

It looks like west coast customs got hold of an F1 car.
Not a fan.

[tigeraid]

Those particular wheels are ugly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't current F1 cars dependent on the extra-tall wheels as suspension (ie. spring) components? Would this not make them ride so rough that things would break, or they'd bounce off the track?

[Kchrpm]

They could adjust the spring rates and such accordingly.

[The359]

Yes, the sidewall height is part of the suspension setup on all the cars. Every team would have to redesign their suspension setups if they went to these rims. They'd also have to redesign their brake systems since they'd have much more room to fit bigger discs.

Also, Pirelli are suggesting they should go with 19" rims, but compromised for this test with 18"s.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Looks good to me. With potentially bigger brakes... F-1 cars can now turn and slow down even faster!

Well, maybe bigger brakes won't help stopping the car that much since the tire contact area remains the same as before... so perhaps they can make bigger diameter, but lighter brakes?

Anyway, I don't see how bigger wheels can be a problem. It's not like F-1 cars might hit potholes or anything..., but then again, maybe lower profile tires will make it harder for them to climb those curbs?

Anyone knows the real good reason why F-1 wheels are only 13"?

[FaultyMario]

Those particular wheels are ugly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't current F1 cars dependent on the extra-tall wheels as suspension (ie. spring) components? Would this not make them ride so rough that things would break, or they'd bounce off the track?


Not just suspension geometry and dampening parameters would need be to revised. Aero is also designed with wheel wake and outwash in mind. Not to mention weight distribution (larger diameter wheels have their larger mass distributed differently). I'm sure they can make adjustments to compensate stiffness and ride roughness, but what seems entirely dissociate is how they propose a change to lower profile tires, which would bring and advantage to rubber warmup, i.e. more exciting qualifying sessions and then undo it announcing standing restarts.

I'd be all hands in the air with joy over this if it was a technical solution to an actual problem. when it really is manufacturer motivated, they want F1 cars to be more "road car relevant".

F1 has a problem with aero-dependency. and they need to adjust accordingly. If they're going to cut down on downforce levels so that closer competiton is possible, they need to loosen up suspension limitations, open up tire design (width, construction, diameter, compounds). Right now they are answeting the questions no one asked, meanwhile they avoid acknowledging having an addiction to costly aerodynamic substances.

[Random]

Physically limits brake diameter.

[FaultyMario]

Well, maybe bigger brakes won't help stopping the car that much since the tire contact area remains the same as before... so perhaps they can make bigger diameter, but lighter brakes?

They could have larger brakes. They've chosen not to. That's why you saw those problems with Mercedes engined cars in Canada. They didn't update the rules on brakes to take into account the regenerative energy recovery and fly-by-wire systems. They get abused at so few venues, they'd rather not spend resources engineering those types of brakes, instead they focus on systems solutions, for example brake ducts that also help air flow for the rest of the chassis or how the caliper profile can help condition other functions of the car.

[Random]

They can have *thicker* brakes, but I think eeryone's running disc diameters that are as large as physically possible given the packaging constraints of the 13" wheels.

[FaultyMario]

Thicker pads too, they choose not to.

I don't think they're all that limited on pad compound either, it's just the ceramic coatings that are banned.

[The359]

For comparison, the current crop of LMP1 cars are running 18" wheels. IndyCar has 15" wheels.

[Phil_SS]

Looks pretty cool to me.

[Alan P]

I quite like them TBH.

[Drachen596]

looks odd but i suspect thats due to being so used to the huge sidewalls the current tires have.

wonder what the results of their testing will be.

anyone know what the aspect ratio is for current F1 tires?

[Freude am Fahren]

"Relevant to road cars" has nothing to do with F1 IMO.

I think maybe 16 would have been a good move. Maybe even 17' but these are a but too "dub" for me. Maybe taller tires to go with the weeks would help the look, not that that should matter in f1 either. But I suspect no f1 teams want such low profile tires.

[FaultyMario]

It was 2 seconds off.

No word on ballast, fuel mixture or fuel rate.

[The359]

It had no modifications to the suspension, was limited to a maximum top speed on the straights, and was not allowed to use the curbing. They weren't supposed to be on pace.

[Yw-slayer]

I like 'em.

[M4FFU]

Sweet lord, why do they keep messing with things. Keep the 13"s. They look fantastic.

[FaultyMario]

Sweet lord, why do they keep messing with things.

Because Berniedollars.


Keep the 13"s. They look fantastic.

Hear, hear.

[Kchrpm]

I think they look sweet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjayRQEp22g

[Freude am Fahren]

How about no regs, and see what the teams/Pirelli come up with.

[FaultyMario]

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/24247/9377572/charles-pic-warns-new-18-inch-pirellis-would-be-a-big-challenge-for-the-f1-teams


Charles Pic has warned that the F1 teams face a “big challenge” if Pirelli push forward their plans to introduce 18-inch tyres.

The Frenchman became the first driver to run the new compounds on the second and final day of testing at Silverstone on Wednesday. The Lotus driver ran the radical prototypes for a total of 14 laps with his fastest lap almost ten seconds off the pace before reverting to a conventional 13-inch set late in the afternoon.

“They are very different. The overall grip was very low and we were off the pace mainly because the car is built for the type of tyre we are racing now rather than the 18-inch tyre and the car is not working well around this tyre. And as this was the first time we ran the tyres, Pirelli were very conservative with pressure and the pace they asked for because the main goal was to give data.”

Expanding on the characteristics of the new tyres, Pic added: “They are more reactive and more nervous and then, on top of that, you lose a lot of aero. It’s not even as if you are in the Monza configuration – it is even less than that.”

'The new tyres were designed and built in accordance with Pirelli’s premium strategy in Milan. The key technical advantage of an 18-inch tyre is a stiffer sidewall that helps maintain the structural rigidity of the tyre and also makes it easier for the tyre to maintain a constant pressure – as there is less actual air inside the tyre. The new tyre is physically bigger, which makes it much more relevant to the Ultra High Performance tyres that are seen on the road, leading to greater technology transfer.

'The new tyres tested have the same width as the current 13-inch tyres (245mm at the front and 325mm at the rear) but a diameter that is bigger by 30mm. The weight is approximately the same as the 13-inch tyre, because although the diameter is bigger, there is a smaller sidewall. The total weight, including the rim, is around 4 kilograms heavier.'

[Yw-slayer]

How about no regs, and see what the teams/Pirelli come up with.

That should apply to F1 in general. Fuck all regulations, just let people enter whatever the fuck they want, can afford, and come up with. I'm serious. You can hardly call it the pinnacle of motorsport if you regulate everything to death.

[Kchrpm]

Then watch as you have only 3 teams that can afford it, and they get more bang for their buck with LeMans prototypes anyway.

Speaking of, if prototype designers can figure out how to do setups for low sidewall tires, I'm sure F1 engineers can as well.

[Freude am Fahren]

I'm okay with some cost cutting and any safety measures, but that's it. Relevance to road cars, not so much.

[Yw-slayer]

So Le Mans is the TRUE pinnacle of Motorsport, then.

[Kchrpm]

Six of one, half dozen of the other. The ACO tunes the rules to benefit the technologies they want to promote (there's practically no way for traditional prototypes to compete with hybrids), and there is some amount of competitive balancing (different sized restrictors on air intakes, different rear tire widths) that they used to use, I don't know if they still do in the prototype class since the drivetrains are so different.

With zero relevance to road cars, you lose some of your marketing angle, and racing is all about marketing to the people that pay for it.

[FaultyMario]

From my point of view it's not who pays for the racing. That hasn't changed much in 60 years.

Right now, the problem lies with who gets the financial rewards of the sport.

[Kchrpm]

If you mean Bernie, I thought he didn't like the changes to the formula and wasn't in charge of them.

http://sports.ndtv.com/formula-1/news/222778-bernie-ecclestone-says-new-f1-rules-unacceptable-calls-for-change

If you mean the advertisers, that hasn't changed.

[FaultyMario]

Bernie's the middle man, he gets a share of the profits for doing all the double dealing and backstabbing. It's all banks and investment funds nowadays.

The rules we have now have come as a result of his business ethos.

[Yw-slayer]

I actually think Le Mans is more relevant to road cars because of the lower classes. Most F1 cars don't strike a chord with me.

[Blerpa]

Bernie is the middle man but... *shocking* for the TEAMS.
His demands are the teams' demands.
But good work by everyone thinking he is the evil bastard.

Oh, and Montezemolo is at his routine "whine" about F1 being weak, not getting fans and being boring.
Have you realized the routine? Come on, it is easy, it has been the same in the last 40 years: Ferrari sucks in F1, Ferrari complains about leaving the circus and/or that show is bad, teams should do an alternative championship and so on.
Do check, it is the usual shtick by him (and historically by Ferrari) to keep Ferraristi angry at the federation and let them forget about piss-poor or mediocre performance of the team.
And the fools fall for it everytime. Same as with the Bernie hatred.

Le Mans is so relevant to road cars... that almost none one generation or two younger than us gives a fuck about it, or even know the race at all.
That's as relevant as Le Mans is in culture and among people nowadays. In Europe.

[FaultyMario]

I agree that bernard is no more evil than the teams he represents are selfish pricks who can't come to bare-minimum agreements.

Maybe he's evil because he weeds out the smarter team owners, so that he always has these selfish halfwits to herd around. Case in point: Luca.

[Alan P]

Le Mans gets less than zero mainstream coverage from TV and non specialist press media over here which is a shame.

[Yw-slayer]

At least the lower class LM cars look like road cars. F1 cars just look like random things. People are also moving away from car culture, so they would gravitate to easily accessible stuff with potential to indicate wealth/social status in certain circles, like F1, rather than taking the trouble to go all hipster (relatively speaking) with Le Mans.