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Thread: Tesla!!!1 (Was: Tesla Sales banned in NJ.)

  1. #341
    What fresh hell is this? overpowered's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by novicius View Post
    The second motor to drive the front wheels has to weigh something. The beefier axles and brakes and rims also factor into the weight, obviously.

    But my questions about extending range really point to a more basic question: WHY is the Model S built to be so quick??

    The answer of "because they can" is unsatisfying.
    I suppose. Those beefier axles and brakes and such help with the durability. If they didn't do that then they'd have to limit the power output to keep the car from breaking. Remember the gearbox debacle of the Roadster? I'm thinking that they don't want to repeat that.

    The car is going to be heavy even without a beefy suspension system. Better to make the suspension able to handle it day in and day out.

  2. #342
    What fresh hell is this? overpowered's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freude am Fahren View Post
    I don't doubt there's extra weight in the car in order to go faster, but I doubt it would have a very significant enough impact on range. Don't forget weight also equals slow, so it's not like they don't care about weight. The front motors add about 100lb. Even if the beefiness of components to make more speed add double that, I doubt you'd see anywhere as significant an impact on range as you do on speed. At 65mph what would the added range by losing 5% weight? if they could replace that 200lb or so with pure batteries, that'd be one thing, but I think they are also space limited in that regard.
    Extra weight reduces acceleration and limits cornering and climbing. It doesn't hurt (eventually) gaining or maintaining speed in a straight line on level ground.

  3. #343
    Corvette Enthusiast Kchrpm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by novicius View Post
    The second motor to drive the front wheels has to weigh something. The beefier axles and brakes and rims also factor into the weight, obviously.

    But my questions about extending range really point to a more basic question: WHY is the Model S built to be so quick??

    The answer of "because they can" is unsatisfying.
    The second motor to drive the front wheels isn't for Ludicrous mode, it's for all wheel drive in general. One could presume that the beefier brakes are a requirement of the base weight of the vehicle, and the beefier rims are a requirement of the high-end market they're aiming this vehicle at. However beefy the axles are is likely determined by those needs more than a Ludicrous mode that they expect most drivers *might* use once.

    "Because they can" is EXACTLY why luxury vehicles do any number of things. Are you going to tell me you can go up to any $100k+ luxury vehicle and everything you point at will have a reasonable, functional use?
    Get that weak shit off my track

  4. #344
    Bad Taste novicius's Avatar
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    But 10-second quarter mile passes sells cars?? Seriously?!

    (Also Keith you were the one who said you don't think speed trumps range. )

    All I can really think is that since they need ever bigger batteries for range and bigger batteries equal bigger instantaneous discharge, Musk ordered his engineers to harness it instead of putting software nannies on it.
    Last edited by novicius; August 25th, 2016 at 03:07 PM.

  5. #345
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    Efficiency definitely drops with motor speed, and that relationship is a function of motor design. You can design an electric motor for big torque or high revs, but they are somewhat on opposite ends of spectrum. With that choice comes decisions about safety, efficiency, thermal management, etc. I believe the general consensus in the EV industry is that an EV that can deliver a good sub-100mph range is where you want to be, and you can do that with a 1-speed gear reduction set. No point in adding extra weight and complexity - I am sure everyone remembers the Roadster blowing up the 2-speed boxes. Everyone walked away from that smarter. Giving an electric car a big top speed is a major engineering challenge that probably isn't going to sell more EVs. No reason to answer a question nobody asked.

    I think the Tesla's acceleration numbers are critical to its sales. I do think 2.5s 0-60 is every bit as important as range. Those crazy performance numbers get people in the door. If you said "200 mile range and 20 second 0-60" people wouldn't even come see you. But 200 mile range AND 0-60 IN 2.5 SECONDS is shocking enough to make people forget about the first statistic. That's not to suggest people would buy a Tesla with a 50 mile range - only that both are very important. Since it's much easier to deliver rapid acceleration than long range, Tesla is just playing to their strengths. Don't forget they are selling $100,000 cars. Their customers are people who could buy just about anything they want. Being able to smoke the direct-competition S class and 7-series gives Tesla buyers something to feel good about in lieu of being able to drive cross country. It's the package that draws people in and keeps the S in the media. Musk is playing his cards like a pro.

  6. #346
    Director Freude am Fahren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by novicius View Post
    But 10-second quarter mile passes sells cars?? Seriously?!
    Actually it does. The S65, M5, RS8, etc. don't offer much you can't get on the non performance models in terms of luxury, and in many cases, they are louder, less comfortable and have much less range. I know that's different because you can't yet fill up a battery in 2 minutes, but it does sell cars. I have no doubt my uncle probably wouldn't have bought one if it had 528 performance figures. And there are many like him.

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesameguy View Post
    Efficiency definitely drops with motor speed, and that relationship is a function of motor design. You can design an electric motor for big torque or high revs, but they are somewhat on opposite ends of spectrum. With that choice comes decisions about safety, efficiency, thermal management, etc. I believe the general consensus in the EV industry is that an EV that can deliver a good sub-100mph range is where you want to be, and you can do that with a 1-speed gear reduction set. No point in adding extra weight and complexity - I am sure everyone remembers the Roadster blowing up the 2-speed boxes. Everyone walked away from that smarter. Giving an electric car a big top speed is a major engineering challenge that probably isn't going to sell more EVs. No reason to answer a question nobody asked.

    I think the Tesla's acceleration numbers are critical to its sales. I do think 2.5s 0-60 is every bit as important as range. Those crazy performance numbers get people in the door. If you said "200 mile range and 20 second 0-60" people wouldn't even come see you. But 200 mile range AND 0-60 IN 2.5 SECONDS is shocking enough to make people forget about the first statistic. That's not to suggest people would buy a Tesla with a 50 mile range - only that both are very important. Since it's much easier to deliver rapid acceleration than long range, Tesla is just playing to their strengths. Don't forget they are selling $100,000 cars. Their customers are people who could buy just about anything they want. Being able to smoke the direct-competition S class and 7-series gives Tesla buyers something to feel good about in lieu of being able to drive cross country. It's the package that draws people in and keeps the S in the media. Musk is playing his cards like a pro.
    The key with Tesla and the rapid acceleration goes hand-in-hand with its range. The thing that makes the cars so special is it's ability to dump massive amount of energy, and recharge energy very fast.

    If you look at the model s 65, the range is less than the 70, 75, so-on-and-so-forth.

    The number designates the better energy reserve. I haven't read a bunch about the differences in the motors, but I'm sure they are different in the way they consume energy. However, increase in ability to consume more energy does not decrease it's efficiency when not being used. This applies to electric motors. It CAN apply to ICE also, see Corvette c5, c6, c7. All of these generations have seen many cars with big power, big engines, pull 30+ mpgs.

    Acceleration = range in EVs within reason.

    That's why the p85 does better range than the P85D. Less energy draw by not being AWD. Still uses the exact same motor in rear.

    I'm rambling at this point but I feel I've made my point. Or not.

  8. #348
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    Also. Cross country is completely doable in a model s. In fact, tasks had done it with 2 last year I believe.

    Super charging stations are all over the place across I70.

    Range anxiety is a thing of the past.

  9. #349
    Corvette Enthusiast Kchrpm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by novicius View Post
    But 10-second quarter mile passes sells cars?? Seriously?!

    (Also Keith you were the one who said you don't think speed trumps range. )
    No, it doesn't. Any number of things on luxury cars by themselves don't sell cars. Rattling off a bunch of "whoa, it has this too" or "wow, it does that too" is what gets people to spend $120k instead of $80k. The P100D's biggest competitor is probably the P75D.
    Get that weak shit off my track

  10. #350
    Bad Taste novicius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesameguy View Post
    I think the Tesla's acceleration numbers are critical to its sales. I do think 2.5s 0-60 is every bit as important as range. Those crazy performance numbers get people in the door. If you said "200 mile range and 20 second 0-60" people wouldn't even come see you. But 200 mile range AND 0-60 IN 2.5 SECONDS is shocking enough to make people forget about the first statistic. That's not to suggest people would buy a Tesla with a 50 mile range - only that both are very important. Since it's much easier to deliver rapid acceleration than long range, Tesla is just playing to their strengths.
    Agreed -- which is why I originally said for corporate justification "speed > range" -- the acceleration is *so* shocking (heh) that it makes headlines. It feeds sales.

    Undoubtedly the Roadster gearbox woes also played a part internally in adding beefy half-shafts and AWD/adding a 2nd motor.

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