Endurance Season 2020 and Beyond

[dodint]

I'm not saying it's gatekeeping, just that it's a really niche form of tribalism. And that goes both ways, neither is right or wrong. I've always enjoyed sports car racing with production sports cars more than prototypes and I understand that isn't everyone's preference. I don't belong to this tribe and that's okay.
To me, Formula 1 are glorified go-karts, and prototypes are of no interest to me whatsoever because they're not relatable to anything anybody else in the world drives. It's kind of like a space shuttle; really neat to look at for a few minutes but I have no way to relate to what it's built for.

Like Ang said, it must be demographics. This is the only place I've seen people agree that it's okay to put on a 24-hour television broadcast of a sporting event and only show one class of participants. To me that demonstrates a massive lack of ability, creativity, and respect on behalf of the broadcast producers. When I watch an NBC broadcast of a three-hour IMSA race, which is chock full of commercials and sponsor segments, they still manage to show proportionally balanced coverage of all competing classes. But the broadcast team for the 'the most important motorsports race ever' can't figure it out over a commercial-free 24 hours? It's lazy, apathetic, and disrespectful. This imbalance has caused me to watch less and less coverage every year (I used to travel 7 hours each way to watch a live feed in person at the National Corvette Museum, sleeping in a movie theater so I could watch the whole thing).

As for 24LM being 'the most important motorsport race ever' that's hard for me to comprehend as an American where I live in a country of 333 million people and 24LM makes almost no cultural impact. Some people think Monoco is the most important motorsport race ever. Important may speak to relevance but doesn't equate to interesting.

[Tom Servo]

Just out of curiosity, I finally found the LM24 coverage on Max and put it on last night and made a point to see how much time the GT cars got vs. the Hypercars. At least in the first hour or so, it was about 50/50.

[dodint]

Glad you're enjoying the coverage.

[Rare White Ape]

As for 24LM being 'the most important motorsport race ever' that's hard for me to comprehend as an American where I live in a country of 333 million people and 24LM makes almost no cultural impact.

Per Wikipedia:
"Ford v Ferrari grossed $117.6 million in the United States and Canada, and $107.9 million in other territories, for a worldwide total of $225.5 million.

In the United States and Canada, the film was released alongside Charlie's Angels and The Good Liar, and was projected to gross $23–30 million from 3,528 theaters in its opening weekend. It made $10.9 million on its first day, including $2.1 million from Thursday night previews. It went on to debut to $31.5 million, topping the box office."

I'm pretty sure current cultural status of sports car racing in the USA can be regarded as healthy, even though it doesn't take up all of everyone's attention all of the time. I am sure that would increase significantly if Cadillac was to win the race or something. Don't forget that Americans generally prefer to watch American forms of racing like NASCAR, with F1 being a prime example of a category that finds it tough to make an impact in the USA. This forum contains perhaps the largest ratio of outward-looking American fans of motorsport that I've ever seen... just ignore the tiny sample size.

As for my argument against GT3, I'm not concerned with its ubiquity (as illustrated by Blerpa). I just find the category to be hellishly bland. This is mostly at odds with all the arguments for GT3, being that it has a huge variety of cars in many configurations from all sorts of manufacturers, with close racing and even closer balance of performance, and that a lot of these cars are honestly quite exotic and interesting from both an engineering and aesthetic point of view.

The reason I have little interest in GT3 is that I'm just over it. All the racing sims are dripping with the same cars and in iRacing everyone always runs GT3 at the expense of many other more interesting classes. The comprehensive driving aids and dynamics of the cars are easy to get to grips with making them accessible for basically anyone who can drive straight and clean, but this also means the cars are lacking in character.

I blame aerodynamics and I blame tyres. There is too much grip across too much of the performance envelope so they do not move around or provide a whole lot of enjoyment for the driver. They are like underpowered open wheel cars with an extra 500 kg of body weight on top. I preferred the now-defunct GTE class, which had more power and grip and less weight and fewer driving aids and a better overall driving experience. But to make GT3 accessible and (relatively) cost-effective, we are limited to a class with reliable production-based mid-spec racing engines with plenty of grip and a very 'safe' driving experience.

[Kchrpm]

The success of Ford v Ferrari did not make the 24 Hours of Le Mans an important event in America.

It's hard to say what truly makes a cultural impact in America, because there are so many things going on all the time that so few people know or talk about. F1 has obviously had a big jump in attention because of Drive To Survive, and basically nothing else motorsports related moves the needle.

If you focus on motorsports fans rather than the general public, you're probably going to get the answer that the Daytona 500 or Indy 500 are far more important, hence why sports car racing coverage here is so obsessed with focusing on whatever NASCAR or IndyCar driver gets involved.

[Blerpa]

Most important motorsport race ever to the world.
So out of 194 countries there is one called United States in which people may believe Indy 500 or Daytona 500 is more important than the 24 Heuers du Le Mans. Fair enough.
But it is just one country, albeit an important one for motorsport, compared to the rest of the globe.

If then we talk about most important *endurance* race ever... well, duh, is either 24 Heuers du Mans or 24 Heuers du Mans. There is like no other opinions or sides to take.
You may personally like better the 24H of Spa (considered the most important "GT3" endurance race in this moment of time), the 24H of Daytona (because of the american heritage of it) or the 24H of Nurburgring because of, well, "that" track and the 11 different classes, but it is not debatable which one is objectively the most important endurance race ever out of history and prestige.
I truly loathe Monaco GP, I pine for the year when they will finally stop racing in it, but it is undeniable it is the most important F1 race ever in the very same ilk... not even Monza or that modern mickey mouse crap still called Silverstone are on par with Montecarlo.

That said, I've no problems with GT3: I like the fact there's a standardized vehicle class for both gentleman and pro drivers, I like they are BoPped, I like they are not costly exercises like old GTE and that GT3 cannibalized DTM which had been run to the ground by stupid Class One silhouette behemoths and escalating investments.
Out of major series non-openwheel series only two resist to a bit of welcomed uniformity: BTCC (the whole world went TCR, they conveniently went to lame NGTC class just "because") and japanese Super GT (rolling my eyes to the sky at the mess that is).
But that does not mean everything should be about GTs.
Also they are not the fastest or most powerful closed wheel vehicles... so there is a reason prototypes are, at least in WEC, more important.

As RWA GT3 is the most popular race category in sim racing, second one in simcades (F1 being incredibly popular with casual gamers), so there's plenty other space for prototypes and other stuff both in sims and real motorsport.
I should not convince anyone, you do like what you do like (I love Late Models way more than ARCAs, Xfinity and even Nascar Next Gen, but I know they are not as important) and that is fine.

I truly suggest to watch the upcoming Spa 24 Hour race for a smorgasbord of GT cars!
Also there will be historic races just before as I copy and paste here from the official site: "In collaboration with Peter Auto, nearly 40 touring cars (from 1966 to 2000) and more than 45 GTs (from 1993 to 2013) will take to the track during three nostalgia-tinged races: two for the GTs (Endurance Racing Legends) and one for the tin-tops (Heritage Touring Cup)"
Expect Maserati MC12 and other GT1 machines to sparring it out with Vipers, Marcos all along till first era GT3 ones.

[Godson]

The success of Ford v Ferrari did not make the 24 Hours of Le Mans an important event in America.

It's hard to say what truly makes a cultural impact in America, because there are so many things going on all the time that so few people know or talk about. F1 has obviously had a big jump in attention because of Drive To Survive, and basically nothing else motorsports related moves the needle.

If you focus on motorsports fans rather than the general public, you're probably going to get the answer that the Daytona 500 or Indy 500 are far more important, hence why sports car racing coverage here is so obsessed with focusing on whatever NASCAR or IndyCar driver gets involved.

I'll echo this.

Ford v Ferrari isn't a racing movie, and has had next to zero impact on sporty car racing viewership. That movie was about the friendship of Miles and Shelby. The background story is a supportive piece to draw people into the suspense of Miles getting fucked over.

Hell, whenever someone asks what sort of racing I watch, and I mention endurance racing, they are blown away when I mention 24 hour races. The more comical part is, a lot of them have seen the movie mentioned above.

I'll add, having been to the Indy 500 this year, it is the largest non-religious gathering of humans on the planet, consistently hitting 300k plus. Le Man's has had 400k, but that was in the 60s...

[dodint]

The scary part of that statement is that it implies there are larger gatherings, but they're religious in nature.

[Kchrpm]

I don't claim that America is the most important country when it comes to motorsports, but to Nate's point, we genuinely can't understand how big an event is, or in what ways it is big, in places where we do not not spend significant amounts of time talking to groups outside of focused areas like this.

For endurance racing, sure, Le Mans is the most important race. That's unquestionable. It's the overall importance of sports car and endurance racing in general that is questionable. In America, outside of the immediate area surrounding a major track, it seems like a fringe, niche interest. Perhaps that's different in other countries, but it doesn't seem like there is any mainstream interest akin to what F1 gets. There aren't international celebrities being interviewed on the grid or shown during the coverage with a little pop up explaining who they are. I'm grateful for that, because I don't give a shit about them, but those are the kinds of things you see in the coverage of an event that is important culturally and not just to the fanbase.

And don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a bad thing. I'm totally accustomed to being the whole person in any local friend group that knows or cares about something, which is why you assholes have been so important to me for 20+ years. I just don't think that Ford v Ferrari or even the Gran Turismo movie are proof of mainstream interest in sports car racing. If anything, GT is proof that people don't care: it's so horribly wrong in how racing actually works, and how Le Mans works, and yet it did pretty well and no one cared about all the stupid, lazy mistakes.

[Blerpa]

Can I say I agree with all the three of you?
The part about the non religious part of it made me chuckle!

F1 is the only and foremost "mainstream" motorsport overall. Anywhere. Anytime.
Possibly MotoGP a very long distance second and mainly because of the ruckus Rossi's years in it caused and Paris - Dakar as a whole cultural phenomenon at least for european and the whole mediterranean basin.
Le Mans is rarely mentioned as this mythological 24 hour event of sort and Targa Florio too but nothing else and yet mostly in Europe, still.

BTCC, DTM, Indy 500 and Indianapolis, Nascar, F2, F3, Super GT, Rally, Pikes Peak, Trento Bondone, Green Hell, Mille Miglia, Group C racing, Thousand Lakes, RAC Rally, etc. Zilch. Zero. Nada.
Motorsport was, is and will ever be a niche.

And I agree with Keith and Tyler, those two movies sold not because of motorsport but because of being an "americana of brap brap with bromance" and "something about a famous game".
Ferrari movie itself is all about the man and his tumultous relationship with women, men and the yearn to win at all costs - but motorsport is a secondary part of it (although I didn't dislike the small parts of it and the surreal accidents).