JoeW only 'kinda' agrees with Peter okay?
Stop stomping on the poor guy already!
JoeW only 'kinda' agrees with Peter okay?
Stop stomping on the poor guy already!
I've driven that track virtually for thousands of laps and what he was saying is that the track jogs slightly to the left just before the turn. So the natural flow of the track requires a slight left before turning into the apex. If you watch that particular incident a hundred times you'll see that it's just not that big of a deal. Watching his steering wheel inputs leading up to the contact shows he didn't maliciously smash into Lando as a 10sec penalty would suggest. Lando still had plenty of pavement space (safe pavement...there is no gravel there) if he really wanted to avoid contact. He could have put his left tire just over the white line and been safe...but he chose to shove it in there and hold the very tiny amount of ground his front tire had cleared of Max's rear tire. He already had 4 track limits violations by this point so he was driving over the limit as it is.
I'm not saying Max was innocent of some overly aggressive defending, but Lando was also guilty of failed divebomb attempts. I think everyone is just so quick to forgive the smiling cute golden boy Lando and crucify the awful petulant bad boy no talent ass clown Max.
Buuut, even if he is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt....not going to keep pointing out that all the multi WDC champs have driven this way at many times of their careers. Senna, Schumi, Ham all have a video library full of some overly aggressive driving.
Anywho...I have typed a few responses in this thread and edited them out already. It doesn't matter as much to me anymore.
Initially I was upset with Max for his tactics in defense, mainly his moves under braking. I thought that was still illegal in F1 (a rule that came about because of him), but on further research it turns out the FIA walked back on that a few years ago after implementing it and Vettel got in trouble for it. So I guess technically Max was fighting by the rules, even if I disagree with that rule and it's still a douchey way to race. The following, attacking driver has to potentially take evasive action by flying off track, or run into the defending driver. When Max did this and Lando didn't quite make the corner and gave the place back afterward, I believe there's a *possibility* Lando could have made the corner had Max not moved under braking. It caused Lando to have to go further right in the brake zone, possibly release the brake slightly in order to accommodate lateral load in the brake zone, and have an even worse position and angle into the corner.
American racing rules typically deal with this under the umbrella no-no of "moving in reaction" to a driver behind. Straightaway, brake zone, doesn't matter. FIA really ought to put a stop to this moving under braking thing. It's just bad racing. I could see allowing an unorthodox line under braking, which is not done in reaction. That's fair and creative defending. It still gives the driver behind that moment to react in most cases.
The whole way F1 goes about racing nowadays is weird to me sometimes. Like, a driver trying to pass on the inside might be side by side with the car on the outside as they approach the apex. The inside driver will accelerate early and start to release the steering, *guaranteeing* a trajectory that will leave zero room for the car on the outside at the exit. This very maneuver, which begins at the apex, will put their front tire a couple inches ahead of the front tire of the outside car, so the inside driver can proclaim over the radio "I was ahead at the apex!" and receive no penalty. The truth is had they taken the corner in a way that would allow the outside car to stay on track, even if barely, they would not have jumped ahead at the apex to begin with.
It can work the other way, too. If the outside driver is under attack and realizes the inside driver is going to take the corner all for themselves, the outside driver can release the brake early, maintain a speed and trajectory that will guarantee they won't make the corner, BUT in the process of this they always keep a couple inches of front tire ahead of the inside driver, they can claim "he was never ahead! He forced me off! I don't have to give the place back!" On tracks with paved runoff, it's an easy out. I haven't seen a replay with a good angle, but it's possible this is why Max didn't give the position back on the lap when Lando dove up the inside and made the corner.
I think Max has played the intimidation game to his advantage so much from his run up to his first championship, he has now enjoyed a few years of no other driver really challenging him. Partly this is due to his speed and the speed of his RedBull, partly it's just no one wants to have an accident trying to race Max. Lando in particular has been real smart about this, even if he qualified well but knew his McLaren didn't have the race pace of the RedBull, he wouldn't fight. As the McLaren has gotten faster, he's been ramping up his desire to race wheel to wheel, and I think Lando has realized recently that he might have an outside shot at the championship with seeing RedBull falter a bit, and (my pure conjecture) potentially knowing McLaren has more notable improvements in the pipeline this year. I think Lando in Austria may have decided to stop backing down now that he has a race winning car. And this, I think, led to the collision that ruined his race. I don't particularly blame him. We have seen other drivers on the outside going into that corner get squeezed onto the serrated curb before turn-in and survive. But I think Lando decided he wasn't going to be intimidated, and this, inevitably, will lead to a collision with Max.
I'm still mad at Max, though, particularly with the way he forced Lando off track after their incident. He was clearly looking in his mirror to do that. FIA needs to put a stop to that, fully, and I can't believe he got away with that.
I think we need to call Austria's Turn 3 "Controversy Corner."
I don't think anybody's arguing that Lando's failed divebomb attempts were failed divebomb attempts. He clearly overdid it. The difference is that he gave the place back and didn't end anyone else's race in the process.
To Cudas italicized commentary…I totally fucking agree. That shit happens all the time and it’s so annoying. Especially at T4 in Austria.
I’m still on the fence on the “after tires blown” actions. Both drivers have reduced control and are likely trying to determine who is coming at full throttle behind them to take avoiding action. I do want to look at it again though.
To Tom, very true. Lando even let Max by once when he probably shouldn’t have.
This all comes down to those multi championship drivers who will do literally anything to win and especially not let you beat them. And some of your favorite recent legends were that way
Yes. Senna in particular. Actually they’re all like that.
Lando needs to learn to race to not give anything back! If Max wants to crash into him, crash into him! It’s his championship to lose this year. I can’t imagine Max would want to keep throwing away races like that. Lando’s too nice! This may be his only obstacle that he needs to overcome in order to be a multi champ!
Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; July 2nd, 2024 at 01:50 PM.
I’ve watched the aftermath of the puncture a few times now on replay. Brundle screaming “Verstappen was trying to run him off the road” is pretty classless.
Watching it back, Max is just trying to get off the racing line. He’s not yanking on the wheel to “run him off the road” intentionally. I know all of you are in the other camp and think he’s this evil assclown. But try suspending your reality for a brief moment and just watch it a few times. Is it possible, however slightly, that he wasn’t trying to run him off the road? Lando at that time still has some air in his tires and tries to go around the side that Max immediately went to to get off the driving line.
Watching the onboard of the entire incident…going into 3 Max doesn’t even look left until Lando hits him. He’s just following the racing line and gets hit from behind. And the aftermath Max just immediately pulls right to get off line and Lando acts like he wants to pass but realizes he’s got a puncture and gets squirrely and can’t make it happen.
Orrr…Of course, as you all say, Max could have just been 100% at fault and trying to run everyone off the road on purpose.
Is it possible that Max wasn't trying to run him off the road? Sure, the same way it's possible that Max thought he was leaving Norris plenty of room in the braking zone.
It's interesting how, after running into each other and having his tire coming off the rim, Max seems to weave across the track in multiple directions, all just in front of Norris. I'm sure he was completely out of control and could barely make it back to the pits, it was just a coincidence that he kept ending up blocking Norris from getting around him until his tire fully came apart.
Anyway, some further expert analysis.
https://youtu.be/ER4_6N86M_U?si=tHXUoODYIpZvsxgg&t=570
That link should start you at 9:30.
Get that weak shit off my track
I watched that whole analysis video. Seems pretty spot on to me. The stewarding and rules clarity/consistency/enforcement needs to be improved. Max got away with a lot in Austria.
Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything Palmer had to say there.
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