Tesla!!!1 (Was: Tesla Sales banned in NJ.)

[FaultyMario]

I'd think the undercarriage is made up by stressed members of the car's structure, and thus why I imagine that, in one hundred years of automotive engineering, the paradigm has been to use crossed members.

i think problems affecting a stamped unibody structure would only appear over the long term, after wear and tear have flexed and stressed it.

It might be a genius cost-savings measure but i just don't see it. to me it seems as a roll of the dice on an expensive recall.

[Godson]

I honestly haven't followed the design of the truck, because I honestly find the thing repulsive.

It's too much new in all the wrong ways, and it is YEARS behind the announced production date.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, the truck design is a bit too much for me as well.

Last I heard is that it's just going to be like Honda Ridgeline- Unibody construction. Used to be more innovative with exoskeleton... meaning the outside panels will be stressed as well. However, for whatever reasons they're not doing that anymore? Anyway, even unibody construction will offer more weight saving than the traditional truck frame design. Cybertruck delays are probably indicative of engineers discovering issues during development...

Whatever. If I do buy a Tesla, it'll be a 3 or Y, not the truck. If you want to haul heavy load or tow something heavy, EVs probably don't quite make sense. I'm actually a bit surprised that the Tesla Semis seems to be doing ok during tests so far. We'll see if that's really true.

[Yw-slayer]

Well anyway apparently Toyota are doing gigacasting better.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Toyota-takes-Tesla-gigacasting-and-improves-its-production-efficiency-20-for-new-Lexus-EV-it-will-unveil-in-October.753359.0.html

SUCK IT ELUN AND TESLUNS

[retsmah]

I don't know much about die casting, but I think part of why we're seeing more of it now in car frames is the increase in aluminum chassis cars. I think it's not as feasible to do with steel.

I don't think there's necessarily a problem with it, and it doesn't seem to be a thing that only Tesla is doing. In addition to the Toyota article, Yamaha has a website showing off their die cast frames (https://global.yamaha-motor.com/business/cf/example/casting/ex008/).

[TheBenior]

FWIU, motorcycles with cast aluminum frame damage are generally totalled out by insurers.

[Rare White Ape]

FWIU, motorcycles with cast aluminum frame damage are generally totalled out by insurers.

Depends on the crash type, but in general if it's a head-on a bike will be written off because the frame will most likely split where the forward segment is welded to the sides of the frame, and that kind of damage is impossible to repair back to as-new condition. Often the split is impossible to see with the naked eye so a front impact crash will be an automatic write-off.

It will be interesting to see how die-cast car bodies are able to handle impacts. Unlike motorcycles, they have significant impact absorption zones which may not transfer a huge amount of energy into the die-cast components, and if they did then you'd have other things to worry about.

[retsmah]

I think a lot of repair challenge comes just from the frame being aluminum, rather than being cast or sheet.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think batteries are the main issue? After a severe crash with batteries damaged, do you really want to fix that?

Aluminum is definitely more expensive to fix though.

[retsmah]

I was commenting on whether frames with die cast components are more difficult or expensive to fix than frames without them, and the specific example of modern motorcycle frames that are mostly die cast aluminum and too expensive to repair.

I think using aluminum is what makes frame components possible to die cast, and also makes them difficult to repair.


On the specific example of motorcycles getting totaled: I had a 2006 Ninja 500 with a pretty simple steel square tube frame that got knocked over by a slow moving van back in 2008. It only needed plastic bodywork replaced, and was pretty close to being totaled just from the cost of plastics. I think any welding/fixing of the frame would have been out of the question even on that bike!

[retsmah]

In short, I'm saying what Tesla is doing with casting parts of their aluminum frames doesn't seem that out of line to me compared to what everyone else is doing. So don't worry, I'm not bashing Elon here.

[FaultyMario]

I'm not bashing Elno, either. I'm just worried that planned obsolescence has not stopped moving onto new industries.

[Tom Servo]

Brothers, sisters, countrymen, please! We can all agree that bashing Elon is a just and right thing to do!

[Crazed_Insanity]

People are taking things way too personally imho.

Like AOC felt the need to sell her Tesla and get some other EV… it is a free country and the lady can do whatever she wants, but that’s just too much politics…

We ought to destroy all VW Beetles then!

Has the best engineering decision been made? Time will tell.

Dump a car because the car sucks, not because it’s creator sucks.

[retsmah]

I'm not bashing Elno, either. I'm just worried that planned obsolescence has not stopped moving onto new industries.

I could be wrong, but at least in the US it seems to me like frame repairs are already mostly phased out. I've been doing a decent amount of browsing of copart for totalled cars (i.e. cars that insurance will not pay to fix, instead choosing to pay the owner the total value of the car), and it doesn't take much to total even a new, low mileage car.

But yeah I think I see your point, new aluminum and potentially cast aluminum frames I could see not being designed to last 15+ years, where older steel frames could just by nature of being steel rather than aluminum.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Finally test drove a Tesla. Considering the most basic Model 3 because Elno's offering a decent lease deal. I'm assuming if war drags on, fuel price will likely rise in the future. Heck, even if there are no wars, fuel prices will likely hike up anyways... plus, car market's high prices seems to remain sky high, not to mention higher interest rates.

Really wanted a plug-in hybrid SUV like X-5 or Jeep GC 4XE so that they can be efficient enough for local errands, but still powerful enough to tow our RV trailer. Our 2017 Sorento is getting old and at current rate, it'll reach 100k miles before its 10th year! I'd like to not run out of the 10yr/100k mile powertrain warranty prematurely... :p

So I think leasing this Model 3 to save on fuel cost and minimize racking on mileage on my ICE cars should be a good strategy to delay future car purchases for another 3 years. Hopefully car market can return to normal then?

Anyway, as for the Tesla experience itself, I like their dealership. Nice and friendly and not pushy. The lady just taught me how to drive it and let me take off on my own. Usually sales folks come along for the ride, right? Or am I out of the car market for too long?

Model 3 is really bigger than it looks on the inside. Perhaps the lack of engine compartment, besides the additional frunk, the trunk is also much longer than expected. Driving dynamics-wise was pretty good too. I don't like the automatic regen brakes or the so called single pedal driving... hope that can be adjusted based on user preference? If not, then I guess I'll have to adjust my driving style... As for acceleration, the base model is only slightly slower than my S2k 0-60, but it really felt faster actually! :p I can't imagine what those other performance models must've felt like...

The only drawback is insurance. Most of my other cars cost about $500~600 to insure /yr. This base Model 3 will be $1000!

My goal was to use my monthly fuel budget to pay for the monthly lease of $329. However, I guess the down payment, taxes and insurance will simply be the cost of having a new car and to preserve the fleet of my existing cars...

Hope Elno won't let me down.

[JoeW]

Get a Rivian. Then you can tow too :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

EVs can tow very well because they have lots of torque; however, they just can't tow very far... and then takes forever to charge, and that makes it very impractical.

I'm surprised Tesla Semis seem to do the job okay, but so far with these smaller EV trucks, I have not seen any of them that can tow in a satisfactorily way.

Tesla is probably still ahead of the game with their superchargers all over the place... if their cybertrucks can be cheaper compared to typical ICE tow vehicles, I'll definitely consider them. As for Rivian, I'm still skeptical of whether they'll be able to survive or not. Plus, I don't see any cheap lease deals from Rivian, in fact, they don't even lease! :p The lowest price Rivian is still way too expensive for me. I'd rather get the X5 or the Jeep 4xe or even the Model X perhaps.

[JoeW]

I hear the Jeep 4xE is garbage. Maybe a Ford Lightning? Btw Rivian is on the Supercharger network now.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, Jeep is definitely not known for their reliability! Adding such complicated plugin hybrid system can't help either! :p However, local dealership is offering lifetime drivetrain warranty so that gives me a bit of peace of mind... ;)

Personally, I prefer the X5, but it's just so damn expensive. Tax credit for PHEVs have a limit at $80k... I think only the most basic X5 PHEV will be able to qualify. Thanks to the UAW strike, Jeep prices have gone up to above MSRP as well... not to mention there are probably nothing in their current inventory. Point is that now is just not the right time to buy cars.

EVs are the only ones with decent deals thanks to Elno and thanks to slowing sales of EVs overall.

GM and Ford are now both pulling back their EV production/investments. Their EV cars have poor sales, their loyal truck enthusiasts are definitely not preferring their EV trucks over ICEs. Yeah, they got ahead of Tesla Cybertruck with their EV trucks in terms of schedule, but those EV trucks really cannot adequately do the jobs normal trucks can do though. If Cybertruck doesn't blow it's competitors away with its lower price and high performance, I think Tesla, or EVs in general, might have reached market saturation. Days of explosive growth are over. Rivian will likely be in trouble too. There are really not that many people in the market for an $80k EV truck/SUV.

The only way forward is to eventually make EVs cheaper than ICE cars so people will be forced to buying EVs because ICEs are just too damn expensive! I wonder how low can Elno drop the price of his cheapest Model 3. I heard we can't really buy a sub $20k ICE car anymore. With $7500 tax credit, Model 3 is already pretty price competitive with a Corolla or Civic.

The main drawback for EVs will be cost to insure. Also, probably can't count on that tax credit to last forever. The future is full of unknowns... that's why I don't want to buy a Tesla. I'll just try it out with a lease. :p

[CudaMan]

I'm pretty sure you can turn off one pedal driving in the Model 3's menu screens. I seem to recall that option when I rented one.

Also, <$600/yr is peanuts for car insurance! You are getting a great deal, assuming you are covering you liabilities sufficiently. I can't remember the last time I had a car cost me that amount in insurance.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If I remember correctly, when I had the super cheap Honda clarity EV lease, AAA charged me $3000/yr. So I promptly changed to Costco insurance to save me some money. Now at WA, I’ve switched to Safeco. They seem to be even cheaper. I do have a super high $2000 deductible though. I figure with minor incidents, I could afford that amount out of pocket, just take care of it myself to avoid future premium increases!

Lastly, I’m an old man now. You are still a young racing driver! So naturally they’d charge you more! :D

[Godson]

I'd honestly take a Rivian over a model 3, way more usability.

[MR2 Fan]

I've heard EV sales have been slowing down the past few months in the U.S.. Saw a video on one of the news stations about it (FWIW).

One issue that was brought up was people who already own one EV in a two car household don't want a second one if they can't charge both overnight (if they have only one high output outlet I guess?) and I'm guessing also that the infrastructure isn't yet there to allow everyone to charge wherever they're going.

At least the automakers are starting to all go toward being compatible with the Tesla charging network, but I think they also need to do their own investments to ensure more charging stations are available in more places.

As I've said before, a lot of people live in condos and apartment complexes where access to decent parking is difficult enough, trying to get one that can also charge EV's has gotta be more difficult. Then the places take up regular spots that were previously for any car, now reserved for EV charging.....more issues....

[TheBenior]

I'd honestly take a Rivian over a model 3, way more usability.
I'd certainly hope so for the extra $34,000 over a Model 3 Long Range.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'd honestly take a Rivian over a model 3, way more usability.

Cheapest rivian is like $70~80k! For that much money, I’d get the fancy gull wing model X! :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

I've heard EV sales have been slowing down the past few months in the U.S.. Saw a video on one of the news stations about it (FWIW).

One issue that was brought up was people who already own one EV in a two car household don't want a second one if they can't charge both overnight (if they have only one high output outlet I guess?) and I'm guessing also that the infrastructure isn't yet there to allow everyone to charge wherever they're going.

At least the automakers are starting to all go toward being compatible with the Tesla charging network, but I think they also need to do their own investments to ensure more charging stations are available in more places.

As I've said before, a lot of people live in condos and apartment complexes where access to decent parking is difficult enough, trying to get one that can also charge EV's has gotta be more difficult. Then the places take up regular spots that were previously for any car, now reserved for EV charging.....more issues....
My personal opinion is that Tesla sales have slowed all thanks to Elno himself.

He has pissed off all liberals and conservatives naturally will prefer more conservative rides…

He slashes prices also won’t help much because imagine Apple or Starbucks slashing prices to compete with android phones or McCafe drinks? :lol:

Anyway, if prices must be slashed, Elno’s saving grace is that current ICEs are ridiculously overpriced so maybe this is a great opportunity to truly win the EV battle by actually making EV’s cheaper!

GM and Ford are pulling back with their EV ambitions. Future of EVs will pretty much rest solely in Tesla’s hands. (Will rivian become more relevant? We’ll just have to wait and see some more…)

Hope my little lease payment will help Elno out a bit. I want to see Tesla survive.

[CudaMan]

There does seem to be several indicators EV sales are slowing, even with so much incentives. Interest rates surely play a factor too though.

In the near term, it seems like hybrids are the best bet for 'universal' adoption. If the claims about solid state batteries are true (700+ mile range, ~10min charge times) that seems like it could spur a new surge of EV sales.


Lastly, I’m an old man now. You are still a young racing driver! So naturally they’d charge you more! :D

Ha! :lol: 25+ years of safe and clean driving record. Multi-car discount. Mult-policy discount (home and auto). The 2011 BMW 328i is $1,900/yr, the 2012 Infiniti G37 is $1,700/yr. Low deductibles, though, so it might be time to look at that again. The Spyder is <$200 because it's non-op right now, and the Turbo is on Hagerty at around $750.

[Yw-slayer]

I'd honestly take a Rivian over a model 3, way more usability.

Look at the BYD Seal if you can (probably unlikely in the US). That car is next level inside and out, and makes the 3 look like a bland and boring Elun-esque try-hard California dystopia. Love it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Speaking of a dystopian world, when we can’t get oil from Saudis and can’t get gasoline from Exxon… EVs with solar panels are the only viable option, right? Unless we go back to horses? :p

Anyway, I do admire Elno’s philosophy of expecting the worst(biological warfare, asteroid strikes), and aim to hope for the best(only model 3 couldn’t with stand biological attack due to space constraints and SpaceX is hoping to get humans asses to Mars in case earth blows up…)!

I do welcome BYD to come to the US and give Tesla a hard time.

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://www.fool.com/investing/2023/11/01/why-elon-musk-needs-to-worry-about-hertzs-criticis/?source=eptyholnk0000202&utm_source=yahoo-host&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=article

Couple of reasons why Hertz isn't happy with Tesla vehicles because MSRP kept on dropping causing them to have lower resale values and the 2nd reason is (maintenance?) cost is too high. I'm not sure what maintenance costs are for Teslas, but I think Hertz is probably complaining about repair costs? If Teslas break down or has an accident, it'll be more costly and will take longer to repair compared to traditional carmakers like GM.

So leasing will help me not having to worry about resale value. :p
I suppose this also makes sense that insurance company will charge me more for a Tesla.

I have heard horror stories of Teslas taking forever to repair because there are just less folks who know how to fix them. If I do lease one, I guess I'll just need to drive extra carefully...

Lastly, Mr. Tesla was so very interested in frequencies and vibrations, so how ironic that Hertz is now bitching about how Tesla! :p

[Godson]

Look at the BYD Seal if you can (probably unlikely in the US). That car is next level inside and out, and makes the 3 look like a bland and boring Elun-esque try-hard California dystopia. Love it.

I dig it. Not in the US, though:(

[Yw-slayer]

As true as it is unfortunate. I love it so much.

[MR2 Fan]

I realized the Cybertruck has a FATAL flaw....when the cover is down you can't see the back window. Yes there's a rear view camera, that's not the point.

HOW will a certain demographic of people put all of their political statements on stickers on the back window if no one else can read them??

[Godson]

The actual fatal flaw on the truck is the bed design. If something is against the cab in the bed, you will need to climb into the bed to get it out.


It is things like this that will make this vehicle not really successful with the truck people.

[Yw-slayer]

The BYD Seal is going to be sold in the USA.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I wouldn’t mind getting the BYD if it’s cheaper and better quality than Model 3.

As for cybertruck, I guess only time will tell. Right now the reports are still polarizing. Either freaking horrible or super awesome depending on author’s political stance. Can’t tell who’s really telling the truth.

Personally I have no need for a truck anyways. I also don’t believe cybertuck will be able to tow my camper very far. So it’d be either 3 or Y for me.

[MR2 Fan]

going back to Tesla direct sales being banned in the U.S.:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_zWFGOSD28

[Crazed_Insanity]

This is the dilemma. We started union laws to protect workers, those dealer laws to protect mom and pop dealerships, but then it could back fire and have them end up becoming a giant cancerous tumor. Of course if we don’t create these laws, we may end up risking manufacturer monopolizing the market and causing problems…

Not really sure what’s the best way to avoid such problems, but I suppose free market capitalism can sometimes self correct? Thanks to internet and Tesla, at least things are changing.

However I think the main culprit is probably size? Companies, whether dealers or banks, probably shouldn’t be allowed to merge over a certain size? If somebody is too big to fail, it’s time to split up that company. We have way too many too big to fail companies in America.

[Yw-slayer]

https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/business/2023/12/27/byd-set-to-overtake-tesla-as-worlds-most-popular-ev-make

Billi anger rising exponentially

Edit:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-12-27/elon-musk-s-tesla-is-losing-ev-race-to-china-s-byd the article
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-12-27/china-s-byd-takes-tesla-s-ev-sales-crown-big-take another Bloomberg article for him to get angry about

[Crazed_Insanity]

Eager to find out what I’d be angry about but the link doesn’t seem to work for me….

[MR2 Fan]

BYD selling more than Tesla globally

[Rare White Ape]

BYD taking over from Tesla is a thing (and by 'globally' the article probably means 'sells heaps in China' which has a massive population so that skews the numbers greatly) but doesn't really change the automotive landscape, because Tesla sales are still way below the established car companies.

I'm waiting to see when Chinese automakers completely wipe the floor in all countries and really take over the world. When Toyota and Hyundai and their contemporaries start to worry because, honestly, they took too long to respond to a new market. And their governments similarly dragged their feet in subsidising it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If Japanese and Koreans can do it, no question Chinese will be able to do it eventually.

However, cheap and good can’t always go hand in hand. Japanese and Koreans were unable to continue to pump out both cheap and good cars forever. As their cars get better, they do become more expensive. Wiping the floor globally is a tall ask.

[Yw-slayer]

Geely Galaxy E8 just released. Teslun and Elun fanbois worldwide can SUCK IT

[MR2 Fan]

have crash testing standards improved for Chinese cars? I know that was the major problem several years ago when they were first coming out.

[dodint]

And here I am annoyed that BMW shifted to a horrifically bad design philosophy to cater to Chinese tastes. I wish BMW were a little more ignorant of the Chinese market. :lol:

[Yw-slayer]

have crash testing standards improved for Chinese cars? I know that was the major problem several years ago when they were first coming out.

I'm pretty sure they are fine now. It's part of the process of making the cars saleable and marketable worldwide. Of course some won't be as good as others.

[Yw-slayer]

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-cuts-Model-3-Highland-and-Model-Y-prices-again-to-battle-BYD-s-relentless-EV-sales-rise.792597.0.html

Teslun is cutting Model crap prices to try and compete with BYD.

Suck it, Elun.

[Yw-slayer]

have crash testing standards improved for Chinese cars? I know that was the major problem several years ago when they were first coming out.

BYD Seal and Dolphin got 5-stars in Euro NCAP and ANCAP.

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-byd-models-score-top-marks-in-euro-ncap-safety-test

https://www.byd.com/us/news-list/BYD-SEAL-and-BYD-DOLPHIN-Score-Five-Star-ANCAP-Safety-Ratings#:~:text=Recently%2C%20BYD%20DOLPHIN%20and% 20BYD,the%20latest%20ANCAP%20testing%20criteria.

ELUN AND TESLUN FANS CAN SUCK IT

[Crazed_Insanity]

Until it comes to America, it'll be difficult for me to try to find one to try to suck!

Seriously, initially I was wondering why Warren Buffet invested in BYD, I guess he knows what he's doing!

[Yw-slayer]

Remember in 2011 when Elun Manchild laughed at BYD and said that he didn't think they made a good product?

[TheBenior]

My God, do Elon and Tesla live rent free in your head.

And I'd literally consider buying a BYD over a Tesla if they were sold in the US at a competitive price. I wouldn't be shocked if the BYD were better designed for body repairability and had more consistent panel gaps than the Teslas.

However, BYD isn't an option to consider, so I'm leaning towards an Ioniq5 if I do replace the family hauler CX-5 with an EV.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Too bad Ioniq5 won’t qualify for the tax credit.

Leasing one might still get you the full tax credit… then you buy the car after lease ends. Have to crunch some #s to make sure it makes sense.

[Yw-slayer]

There are tons of Teslas around here. SOON THERE WILL BE MANY BYDs AROUND MUAHHAHAHHAHAHA

I think BYD are entering the American market soon. That is, if they don't get sanctioned like Huawei.

The Ioniq 5 is a good car!

[Tom Servo]

I'm surprised I still haven't seen a Cybertruck out here. I doubt it's a surprise that LA's one of those towns where people like to try to get people to look at them, and that would definitely be a good car for that. Might be the only thing it's good for.

Hell, saw the Urus here a good month before it was officially released and by the time they were, they were a dime a dozen, but now we're well over a month since the Cybertruck supposedly started shipping and still haven't seen any.

[MR2 Fan]

Cybertruck is sharp and dangerous

https://twitter.com/DigitalNeal/status/1745929574762901561

[TheBenior]

Too bad Ioniq5 won’t qualify for the tax credit.

Leasing one might still get you the full tax credit… then you buy the car after lease ends. Have to crunch some #s to make sure it makes sense.

Around Chicago, some dealers are advertising big discounts to move them, with $7-12k discounts. Illinois doesn't currently have any state tax incentives on EVs, which probably exerts some downward pricing pressure.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I recall when I had the Honda Clarity EV, the range dropped significantly during cold winter. Not only battery performance suffer, but the need to use the heat also can quickly drain batteries. Cold winter in SoCal was never near freezing. I can't imagine how much range will be reduced in current Chicago temperatures...

I'm kinda glad that I have a PHEV now. When charge is too low, I can always just fire up my ICE! ;) Lately at sub-freezing temperatures, I pretty much always need to fire up my ICE just for heat!

Anyway, current downward temperatures are probably pushing the price of EVs down further too. Good luck car shopping!

[TheBenior]

Yes, that combines with one personal issue with an EV is that the Ioniq5 and competitors seem to get about 200 miles of highway range at realistic interstate speeds (70+ once in out of the city), and if I visit my cousins' farm, it's about 100 miles one way.

Theoretically, I could do some charging there, but there's also a family member that has a Model Y, and he might have the same idea.

I still plan to keep my GTI for a while, but the cargo area is on the small side compared to the CX-5.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Unless you have an at least level 2 EV charger on the farm, 200mile trip might be cutting it too close! Hyundai won’t have access to Tesla’s super charger until 2025. Unless there’s really a Tesla super charger near you and that farm, Tesla cars may not have sufficient range too! Otherwise Model Y trunk should be a lot bigger than Ioniq5’s.

Unless I have a Tesla, I probably would never go on a long road trips using EVs. Even with Tesla, access to remote locations might not be practical.

[TheBenior]

Theoretically, I could stop at a tollway oasis with chargers and charge for a half hour while having lunch. Assuming the chargers are working and not taken/blocked.

I could also drive state and local roads for a shorter overall distance, but I'm less keen on that during the way home at night due to more risk of deer crashes.

[MR2 Fan]

Assuming the chargers are working and not taken/blocked.

I feel like that's another "anxiety" point for EV's right now, there just isn't the same amount of charging points we see vs. fueling points for regular cars.

On that note, it's funny how 1-2 years ago there were tons of news articles from automotive publications talking about how Toyota is falling behind by not going full EV and still promoting hybrids (and notably, plug-in hybrids as well), but now they're changing their mind that EV sales have been going down.

Maybe the wealthiest automotive company in the world MIGHT know what they're doing? naaaaah

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ideally, you should be able to charge your EV at home overnight fully and cheaply with level 2 charging. Then you can kiss gas/charge stations goodbye!

I think most people do not travel more than 100 miles round trip on a daily basis. Given modern EV ranges, it’s not a problem. However, a 200 mile round trip may be cutting it close for Ioniq5, especially during harsh winter.

I think Tesla has done a good job with their supercharging network for long trips, but it’s probably still a good idea to keep a regular car just in case. Or perhaps consider a plugin hybrid.

I think a worst case scenario for having only EVs around the house is when during a harsh winter, entire neighborhood's power's knocked out... can't charge at home and can't charge at stations and you also can't go anywhere.

Of course best case scenario is when gas is super expensive or become non-existent due to whatever shortage, but if you have solar and EV, you can continue to charge your EV to go somewhere.

So it's important to figure out what do you want the car to do before you buy. There's no right answer. However, it should become increasingly clear that a mandate to ban ICE car at this stage is ridiculous. Until some sort of next level tech comes along before 2035, you can bet government will kick that can down the road because no way we can ban all ICE cars with current tech.

I think I'd still like to lease/buy a Tesla someday, but for now, I think my Jeep 4xe meets my current mission requirement pretty well. Using it as EV around town, but I can also use it to tow my RV camper during weekends if I want to. It's just not super efficient though. For the same amount of energy charged, it can only go half the distance of regular EVs. So I'd probably get an EV commuter if I need to go back to office regularly.

[TheBenior]

I feel like that's another "anxiety" point for EV's right now, there just isn't the same amount of charging points we see vs. fueling points for regular cars.

On that note, it's funny how 1-2 years ago there were tons of news articles from automotive publications talking about how Toyota is falling behind by not going full EV and still promoting hybrids (and notably, plug-in hybrids as well), but now they're changing their mind that EV sales have been going down.

Maybe the wealthiest automotive company in the world MIGHT know what they're doing? naaaaah

Personally, I see a lot of 'let them eat cake' and 'nah, it'll be fine!' with EV mandates. Sure, I have a house where I could install a charger. Other people may end up paying an extra $5-15k for an EV over an ICE vehicle, spend more of their life recharging, and not save any money in the long run.

AWD Ioniq 5 start at $49k before incentives. AWD iD4 start at $48k. AWD Model Y start at $49k. Meanwhile, a person can get an AWD RAV4 LE Hybrid starting at $31k!

I know that there are still Bolt EUV on dealer lots starting at $32k, but the cargo area is half the size and they're FWD only. Slower charging is also a bigger deal if you don't have a home/work charger.

Sure, one can bring up tax incentives, but eventually, those should go away.

Assuming that battery tech will get better/cheaper in dramatic fashion strikes me as wishful thinking. There have been promised battery breakthroughs for years, but we largely get incremental, steady improvements.

[Tom Servo]

It does seem like plug-in hybrids are pretty much the sweet spot for people right now who can set up some sort of charging station. I would have definitely gotten one if we had somewhere to plug it in. Most of your around town journeys don't use any gas, but you're still okay on a long trip if you can't find a charger.

[Kchrpm]

I always viewed plug in hybrids as requiring the long-term maintenance of both an EV and an ICE, so I liked the concept but didn't really consider owning one.

[TheBenior]

It does seem like plug-in hybrids are pretty much the sweet spot for people right now who can set up some sort of charging station. I would have definitely gotten one if we had somewhere to plug it in. Most of your around town journeys don't use any gas, but you're still okay on a long trip if you can't find a charger.

It would help if Toyota was willing/able to make more of them. The mark-ups that people have been paying for RAV4 Prime models would negate the savings over a RAV4 Hybrid.


I always viewed plug in hybrids as requiring the long-term maintenance of both an EV and an ICE, so I liked the concept but didn't really consider owning one.

I've seen a lot of EV enthusiasts belittle hybrids as being 'overly complex' and having more failure points. However, that will likely vary between brands. How many of us really believe that a Tesla will be as reliable as a Prius?

[MR2 Fan]

I feel like the motors themselves are reliable enough, but no one wants a 10 year old Tesla due to battery technology changes, early batteries having fire/reliability issues (not sure if overblown or not) and I believe lack of compatibility with modern superchargers.

Will people 10 years from now want Teslas made today? who knows?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Plugin hybrids might be best if both worlds, but also worst of both worlds though. Whether a 10year old EV or ICE car is better, I can assure you 10 year old plugin hybrid will probably be the worst because it will have the drawbacks of both! :p

Efficiency wise it’s really not better. For the same amount of charge, I can only go half the distance, but at least I could pretend to be an EV and save gas! When I don’t charge and run on gas only, MPG #s on my new 4 cylinder Jeep 4xe is pretty dismal mainly because it’s heavy and boxy and I’m marking it charge the battery so it’s highway MPG is worse than my Kia Sorento V6! Overall, they have about the same MPG #s if I don’t charge my Jeep!

So far Im still happy with my Jeep, just a bit disappointed with its efficiency. If I didn’t need to tow anything, for sure I’ll get a pure EV. However, in places that might snow, I probably would not give up on ICE cars completely either!

So there’s no clear winner I don’t think. EVs win hands down if you’re getting a daily commuter which you can charge at home overnight. If you need longer trips, you can’t beat ICE.

[Tom Servo]

It would help if Toyota was willing/able to make more of them. The mark-ups that people have been paying for RAV4 Prime models would negate the savings over a RAV4 Hybrid.



I've seen a lot of EV enthusiasts belittle hybrids as being 'overly complex' and having more failure points. However, that will likely vary between brands. How many of us really believe that a Tesla will be as reliable as a Prius?

Yeah, I hope that as manufacturers realize that people see plugin hybrids as that sweet spot they'll produce more and those mark-ups will come down. I have a friend who had a Chevy Volt for years and she loved it. Her commute and all her normal errands were gas free, she just charged overnight and only used gas when doing something like driving a couple hundred miles to see her mom.

I've definitely seen people making the claims about overly complex about our car, now that it's a hybrid with an electric supercharger and a turbocharger, which admittedly does seem pretty complex. Still, most of the issues I hear about are not related to those, so we'll see how that shakes out.

[Kchrpm]

I remember many years ago I thought that a Vette and Volt were the perfect combo, now I'm leaning towards a Vette and a hybrid minivan, but that's because I like the versatility of minivans in general.

[MR2 Fan]

Vette + Volt = Corvette E-Ray?

[Kchrpm]

Vette + Volt = Corvette E-Ray?

I thought about that as I was typing it, but it doesn't come with the extra seats and luggage space.

[Tom Servo]

It's not an E-Ray, but....

https://i.redd.it/fuvhy4uf14l71.jpg

(It also looks like it has very unhappy rear suspension)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow! Forget Volt or Van, Corvette is the one car that rules them all man!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Electric cars will never dominate market, says Toyota
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/electric-cars-never-dominate-market-143001471.html

Toyota is a bit too bold to make such a claim, right? Never?

I do agree EVs won't be able to completely replace ICE cars, probably not by 2035. However, I'd tend to think perhaps by 2035, EVs will be cheap enough to capture more than 50% of the market. Even in colder areas, I'm sure EVs and their owners will eventually learn to adapt to the cold better. I personally think Toyota is too full of themselves. Especially considering we're witnessing a number of GTXers abandoning their boring RAV4s for something else... :p

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how Toyota and Tesla will be battling each other in the future.

YW will be happy to see BYD beating them all in the end. ;)

[MR2 Fan]

Proper Cybertruck review by the best car review duo (IMO) and yes, they've confirmed some issues with the Cybertruck (the closing frunk can cut 4 carrots in half at a time!)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNE-NyaYBcg

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think Cybertruck really does symbolize or represents Elon Musk very well. People will either love it or hate it... :p

I'd not buy the cybertruck though. Only reason for me to buy a truck would be to tow my camper. I don't think EV trucks can tow things very far though. So unless Tesla can end up making cybertrucks super cheap, <$40k, it just doesn't make financial sense for me to get one. For now, if I get a tesla, it'll be the cheapest base version of either model 3 or whatever future model 2 hatchback?

I think Elon should make the future Model 2 stainless steel like the cybertruck too. I really like the ability to be able to kick my car or have shopping carts ram into my car and not having to worry about anything! In the future, there'll probably be a lot more Elon haters out there... so having that worry free exoskeleton is probably a must. ;)

[Tom Servo]

I know they said others have done it, but I do think it's notable that nothing about that review (other than showing that the rear is "roomy") had much to do with it being a pickup truck. Also surprised they said that all the onlookers "loved it," I know that I would be one of those people that would definitely come up to take a look but would not love it.

Also surprised they were so effusive about the handling after the entire bit of them having difficulty backing out of a parking space.

Still surprised I haven't seen one other than at the Petersen.

[Yw-slayer]

https://youtu.be/b8U2M9IddeQ?si=dMXIQChEg4r1JPN0 Several examples of why we call them Tesluns

[CudaMan]

TH is great when I have the chance to watch. I would normally skip a long format Cybertruck video but these guys are very entertaining without being ridiculous, and they were driving through my neck of the woods on this one (catch the subtle but brutal dig at my hometown :lol: ). They would have driven by about 2 miles from my house at one point.

Not much of a review of it as a truck, as you say Servo. I was left wondering why we need the future of automobiles to be heavier, wider, taller, and supercar speed, all with our painfully easy driver licensing requirements.

[MR2 Fan]

TH is great when I have the chance to watch. I would normally skip a long format Cybertruck video but these guys are very entertaining without being ridiculous, and they were driving through my neck of the woods on this one (catch the subtle but brutal dig at my hometown :lol: ). They would have driven by about 2 miles from my house at one point.

Not much of a review of it as a truck, as you say Servo. I was left wondering why we need the future of automobiles to be heavier, wider, taller, and supercar speed, all with our painfully easy driver licensing requirements.

Well, I go by what tech youtuber MKBHD thinks (and I tend to agree) that Cybertruck's target market is Lamborghini owners

As for the last sentence, yeah, at least in the U.S. we really are backwards. Things need to be smaller, lighter, more efficient and then a lot of other benefits come along with that

[Freude am Fahren]

I know they said others have done it, but I do think it's notable that nothing about that review (other than showing that the rear is "roomy") had much to do with it being a pickup truck.

To be fair, probably 75-90% of them won't be used as a pickup truck anyway.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Top selling 4 wheel things in America are trucks. Do we really all need trucks? I kinda doubt most truck owners are all really farmers or construction workers or whoever else that may really need trucks.

Americans like HP and speed and to sit high up above other folks... So cybertruck might fulfill such 'need'?

From a personal perspective, my rides have grown bigger over the years. From Civic, S2000 to SUVs...

My reasons are primarily for family's safety though. Higher and heavier is safer... when colliding with something else that's lower and smaller and lighter...

Anyway, whatever the reasons why Lamborghini, Ferrari and Porsche began to build SUVs, we might as well have those type of cars as EVs so that they'll pollute less.

I think under normal cirsumstances cybertruck should be a hit, but considering how Elon has damaged his reputation with his 'normal' and bluer customer base and the reder trucker loving crowd may not buy into the ideas of EVs... it'll be hard to predict how successful cybertruck will be. I suppose Elon could just add a range extender on the truck bed so that it'll be able to tow longer distances when necessary?

The fact that it cannot tow things very far and can't do what a truck is supposed to do, I do have concerns about its future.

[MR2 Fan]

My reasons are primarily for family's safety though. Higher and heavier is safer... when colliding with something else that's lower and smaller and lighter...

That depends on a lot of factors though.

When I drive small sports cars my thought process was the best way to survive an accident is not to get in one to begin with. THEORETICALLY easier in a small lightweight, nimble vehicle than a large heavy one, but again it all is up to circumstances (i.e. if I'm parked or at a stoplight there's not much I can do)

I won't post the early 2000's Mini Cooper vs F-150 crash test photo yet again as it's pretty outdated nowadays but still brings up a point.

[Yw-slayer]

There are other things you can't control. Such as whether a drunk asshole in a huge car decides to run a red light.

[Tom Servo]

I was left wondering why we need the future of automobiles to be heavier, wider, taller, and supercar speed, all with our painfully easy driver licensing requirements.

Preach. We're making cars harder to drive, to the point where we need driver aids to handle it (not going to lie, without the 360 camera I'd be thoroughly irritated with the XC90) but we seem to make it incredibly easy to both get and keep a license. I haven't been tested in maybe two decades?

Also, last time I went through Fresno on the way to Murphys it was quite nice.

[Tom Servo]

Y'all got me to click on Billi's post. The Cybertruck is heavy and tall, but it's got basically zero crumple zones. Not only will you not survive the crash with another vehicle, you'll be salsa in the cockpit while also killing everyone else around you.

I think this already got mentioned in this thread, but there's been at least one crash with a Cybertruck. Corolla was at fault and hit it head on. The only injury was in the Cybertruck. Corolla looked mangled but that's because the car's body took the brunt of the hit, the Cybertruck just transmitted it all into the driver.

Also...


I think under normal cirsumstances cybertruck should be a hit

Ahh, yes. A $100K truck with < 300 mile range that takes hours to charge and looks like a child's drawing should be a hit. I feel like this sentence is more an insight into what you consider "normal cirsumstances[sic]" than it is the Cybertruck.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I weighed my new Jeep at a recycling center recently and when empty with me in it, it showed 5700 lbs!!!

Even the Honda Clarity EV, which was a sedan, I leased a while back weighed 4000 lbs!

Even my little s2000 is nearly 3000 lbs!

The little Fiat 500 can weigh about 2500 lbs!

With modern day safety features, cars are all on the heavy side!

Of course ideally we don’t want any actual crashes, but given this trend, not really set by Musk, I think car sizes and weights are likely to keep going up…

[21Kid]

Proper Cybertruck review by the best car review duo (IMO) and yes, they've confirmed some issues with the Cybertruck (the closing frunk can cut 4 carrots in half at a time!)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNE-NyaYBcg

I got about 8 minutes into that video and I remembered... I couldn't care less about this stupid thing. Why am I wasting my time watching a review on it?

Those guys were entertaining though. Maybe I'll check out something else they review another time.

[Crazed_Insanity]

After probably 10 years of development, Apple has decided to give up on their iCar.

Pretty sure Apple has resources that's orders of magnitude more than whatever emerald mines Elon had...

So starting a new car company is really hard. Rocket company is of course even harder.

Apple probably just doesn't want to go into a price war with Tesla and BYD and without Steve Jobs, they just couldn't come up with an iCar that's superior to its rivals like the iPhone?

Anyway, kinda disappointed. I was kinda looking forward to the iCar...

[Yw-slayer]

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas-china-made-ev-sales-fall-18-yy-april-2024-05-07/

Tesla sales in China fell 18% year-on-year.

SUCK IT TESLUNS

[MR2 Fan]

Not really news but I decided to give re-designing the Cybertruck a shot. Note I am not a pro at photoshop or similar programs:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMxo_RBXsAAF9hN?format=jpg&name=large

[Crazed_Insanity]

Either way, YW would never buy one! :p

[MR2 Fan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTTMVIhMkkM

[Leon]

I will watch that video at some point, although the Car Wizard can be a bit of a drama queen.

One of the funniest things I've seen online, is people calling the Cyber Truck, "incel-camino".

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow! Nice video showcasing the Cybertruck! It is really cooler than I thought!

However, it's also built with worse quality than I thought too! Oh well, it's a new model, hopefully they'll improve over the years... :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

Finally saw a cybertruck on the way to church today! I kinda like the way it looks in my rear view mirror. It really looks cool and unreal in a sci-fi kinda way. However its butt is really ugly. Probably needed cooler looking rear lights? Or maybe it’s just hopeless? ;)

Oh I saw the driver too.

The owner is one ugly Asian dude!

He could be me! Oh well, if only I could be that rich! ;)

[Freude am Fahren]

I saw one in black for the first time the other day.

Oof. I thought it had a bunch of damage, but no. Just shitty panels.

[Tom Servo]

Our car is not small. WTF.

https://i.imgur.com/TPlDIao.png

[MR2 Fan]

Surprisingly though apparently it is smaller than the F-150?

[Tom Servo]

CSD only has the supercrew version of the F-150, then they're really similar in length, though the F-150 is taller.

https://i.imgur.com/5XyZJBx.png

Looking at that, I will say a positive for the Cybertruck. The stupidly tall front-ends of a lot of modern trucks, like the F-150, are deadly.

On the other hand, I have a feeling the F-150 is still more useful as an actual truck.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, Cybertruck definitely seems 'smaller' than those other full size real trucks/SUVs.

After a few years of them getting quality under better control and if they also can stick an ICE(range extender) in the truck bed, then maybe I'd consider getting it someday. The main deal breaker for me right now is its lack of tow range. Of course even if Elon solved the lack of tow range problem, it'll still need it to be cheap enough for me to afford it! :p

For now, I guess I can only afford 3 and Y for now..., but I'm not in the market for a new car though. Sorry Elon.

[TheBenior]

The Cybertruck is theoretically more efficient length-wise than that F-150, as it's 6.5" shorter in spite of a 6" longer bed, but 3.7" less combined front and rear legroom.

But yes, I'd be surprised if the F-150 isn't more useful for actual truck things.

Tesla just announced 0.99% financing for 72 months on the Model Y through the end of the month, which certainly makes it more tempting for me, owner of an 11 year old CX-5.

[Yw-slayer]

Sadly, it is now not economical for you guys in the US to buy Chinese EVs, which are unquestionably currently the best in the world. I'm talking real next-level stuff.

[FaultyMario]

Sadly, it is now in economical for you guys to buy Chinese EVs, which are unquestionably currently the best in the world. I'm talking real next-level stuff.

Yes they are! And you know bought a bunch of these?

https://www.pasajero7.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Trolebus-Yutong.gif


MY NEXT PRESIDENT!

[Yw-slayer]

Good stuff, brother!!

[Yw-slayer]

https://insideevs.com/features/719015/china-is-ahead-of-west/ This article is 100% accurate.

[MR2 Fan]

I know I've been posting a lot of random videos of the Cybertruck, but this one was interesting to me for one specific reason. Matt Farah previously stated the Cybertruck wouldn't pass pedestrian safety requirements....THEN he found out in the U.S., there is no such thing! Why am I not surprised. Also, this means the Cybertruck will probably never be sold outside of the U.S. (luckily for the rest of the world).

It also goes on to show how generally unsafe the sharp edges are. I've seen at least 4 different people on youtube say they've walked by the truck and got scrapes or clothes torn just by getting too close to it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC9a3GR1HJY

[Tom Servo]

Oh yeah, we don't bother with those pesky pedestrian requirements.

Joking aside, it is horrifying how tall the front of a bunch of American trucks/SUVs have gotten. Our XC90 is not a small car by any stretch and I'm pretty tall, and often I'll pull up next to a new Ford/Chevy/Dodge truck and the top of the hood is above my head. Now you've got things like an Escalade that has such a high hood that you can have something like 25 kids lined up sitting on the ground in front of it and you can't see a single one of them, with visibility so bad that they have to have a front-facing camera on it. That and if you get hit by one of them, you tend to get knocked down and pulled under the truck instead of going up on the hood, so they're massively more deadly if you do get hit by the person who couldn't see you in the first place.

But, ain't no government gonna mess with our truck drivin' peoples.