Religion [Archive] - Page 6

LHutton

July 29th, 2016, 09:51 AM

It didn't say rape a grandma, right?

US soldiers have also raped Japanese women around their bases. Is that Jesus' fault?
No it's US soldiers fault.

Look, I don't like Islam nor do I really care to defend it, but sometimes people commit crimes due to other reasons.

If you don't like migrants, just kick them out. You just also make sure you remove all your soldiers out of their homelands and quit meddle with their politics and install/support dictators!
It depends on the kind of migrants and how many come at once. Not all migrants are equal.

The point is that Islam is not a religion of peace and tolerance. Some choose to interpret it that way, but the religion itself is pure evil, violence and intolerance.

Crazed_Insanity

July 29th, 2016, 10:50 AM

Well, we'll just have respect some of those Muslims their right to practice their peaceful religion as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others.

Well also need to deal with law breakers accordingly, banning any religion just won't work.

LHutton

July 30th, 2016, 05:08 AM

But you could make a stern attempt to ban the introduction of new migrants from broken countries where terrorism is rampant.

Crazed_Insanity

July 30th, 2016, 07:33 AM

Yeah, it's your country, so you guys should be able to decide what you want to do. Still, I just hope that your country will also ban military operations in their countries too.

I think It's the West who end up creating global terrorism, not Islam.

LHutton

July 30th, 2016, 08:39 AM

MR2 Fan

August 2nd, 2016, 06:24 PM

http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/ae6DoxB_460s.jpg

21Kid

August 3rd, 2016, 06:22 AM

Unfortunately, I just came across this from my In-Laws. :(

They are Fox News fanatics who retired to Arkansas. They've said things in passing about politics to us before. But, have been increasingly religious/gun happy over the last few years. They've gone as far as going to a rally to "Stand up for Religious Freedom", and joining the local Police Academy as volunteers. Supposedly to protect their gated golf community from danger. (Turns out my father-in-law is actually president of the HOT SPRINGS VILLAGE CITIZENS POLICE ACADEMY ALUMNI ASSOCIATION)

My daughter(12, almost 13) is visiting them for 10 days this summer. I asked her to not go to the gun range with them, because I'm not comfortable with them shooting guns. Both my kids went to visit last year and they took them to the gun range without even asking us. :mad: My son was only 6. And this was the same range that wouldn't allow muslims (http://www.arkansasmatters.com/news/news/hindu-man-father-kicked-out-of-muslim-free-gun-range) into the range to shoot. And my kids told us that the targets weren't just the bullseye, but the outline of a person. I was livid when I found out.

So, my daughter calls me on Sunday (my birthday) upset that they are forcing her to go to church. She doesn't believe in faith, although we have never dissuaded her from exploring it. We've explained it when she has asked us, and she's went to church with both my and my wife's parents before. I tell my daughter to ask them if she can stay behind, and she said that she tried that, but they said that she had to. So, my wife tried calling her parents and they both ignored her calls. My daughter calls back a few minutes later crying that they won't let her stay behind and that she has to go with them. So, my wife asks to speak to the grandparents.

This is what I heard:
Why can't she just stay back at the house?
It's not disrespecting your faith if she chooses not to partake?
If someone is picking on her because she doesn't attend church, we should be telling her to stay true to herself and stand up for herself. We should be teaching her to be a strong independent woman who thinks on her own. Not to just submit to what others do because she is being made fun of.
How is her not going with you disrespecting your schedule?
At which point my in-laws just said well you are just saying all the right things, aren't you!!! You should just come get her then, and hung up.

A few things came to mind as I heard this conversation. How did it come up that kids at school had picked on her at school for not going to church? That's not something she would offer up without some kind of questioning/provocation. And if we are making sense, and saying the right things... wouldn't that be an indication that maybe we're right and she shouldn't need to go? In the end, she went with and sat in another room while they attended service.

My son is supposed to go down to visit after my daughter gets back... But, now I'm not sure I want him to go. I'm afraid they are going to try to indoctrinate him. :(

I've heard their anger when watching Fox news, when the kids weren't around before. But, I never thought they would act on it and take it out on them. :( They've been mostly indifferent with them and mostly respectful of our stance/beliefs before.

drew

August 3rd, 2016, 08:53 AM

Goddamn.... :down:

21Kid

August 3rd, 2016, 09:38 AM

I just remembered one of the other comments...

"I didn't disrespect your schedule when I stayed at your house." She stayed with us for 6 days before we left for DC because Shannon had a huge exam and I was out of town for work. Shannon responded to her: "You never asked to go to church when you were here. And if you had, it wouldn't have been a problem. I don't care if you go to church. And I would never force you to NOT go."

The whole situation just pisses me off. I'm debating whether I should even let my son go down to visit next week. I'm not sure if I can swing it with work though. :|

Crazed_Insanity

August 3rd, 2016, 10:19 AM

So if grandma wish to go to the super market and your kids just want to stay behind, all the adults need to respect the child's wish... okay.

So if grandma made plans to go out and eat at a place that the kids don't like, it's also okay for the grandparents to leave them behind too?

Have you considered how to respect your in-laws? Even if they are Muslim extremists, if you attend their church, your kids won't all of a sudden be brain-washed you know?

If both sides are just so stubborn and refuse to be considerate of each other, perhaps it's best to just cut all ties to avoid these kind of situations.

It's really no big deal for an unbeliever to sit thru church.

It's also no big deal to respect unbelievers' wish to NOT attend church.

If you guys still wish to maintain ties, it's best one side yield a little bit.

If Jesus Christ is just so freaking annoying, yeah, it's probably the best for the kids to stop hanging around grandma.

Also a non-religious piece of advise..., wouldn't it be better for your wife to talk to her parents rather you directing confronting them?

overpowered

August 8th, 2016, 09:32 AM

http://americannewsx.com/hot-off-the-press/christian-ministries-erect-monument-to-mans-stupidity-in-kentucky/

What Ham and company have created is an affront to all known scientific data known to mankind and he and his ilk are lying to deceive because the one thing that ignorance flourishes in is religion. Consider for a moment that not only are the 13,000 known species represented in the Ark but also all the dinosaurs which were until a few years ago, just something scientists made up to make evangelicals looks stupid. Bring in a few billion dollars in Jurassic Park sales and it’s going to be awful hard to sell children on the book of Genesis.

What Ham has done now is increased the population of the Ark with the thousands of species of dinosaurs that died out millions of years, err, I mean 4000 years ago like it says in the bible. So now there were 2 75 foot Apatosauruses on the ark weighing a combined 50 tons on a boat that was 500 feet long and 86 feet wide. They probably climbed in and went to sleep with the muggles on the ship because carnivores and herbivores have always gotten along.

21Kid

August 15th, 2016, 07:27 AM

1886

Crazed_Insanity

August 15th, 2016, 09:37 AM

http://americannewsx.com/hot-off-the-press/christian-ministries-erect-monument-to-mans-stupidity-in-kentucky/

One thing people have think about is whether religious freedom is something that still need to be respected.

I get the feeling that nowadays, we have a scientific dogma and anything or anybody that don't fit to this 'church' of modern science are considered heretics... and if there's a hell, they should all just go there. But since science didn't find a hell... so you guys are not sure where to send these people... ;)

Anyway, just like free speech, let the stupid say whatever they want. But the good thing about such freedom is that you don't have to agree to it. Similarly, you don't even have to believe there was ever an ark, let alone an ark that has dinos. Regarding to this topic specifically with regard to my faith, I do also agree that it's kinda stupid... for God to save the dinos and then kill them off. (You can't blame their extinction on humans for sure) However, I don't think Ham included the dinos because of the movie Jurassic Park. Even before scientists have discovered dino fossils, Book of Job does hint of huge land creatures called behemmoth and laviathan. Their descriptions regarding their size most certainly don't fit any of the animals in the zoos. So it sure sounded like dinos were amongst people at least in the time period of Job. Now, exactly which period is that, I'm not 100% sure. Were there dinos on Ark? Bible was also not that clear... IMHO, to dwell on such specifics when none of the specifics were given is kinda foolish. I also do believe spending that much money on such a museum is foolish. How does the Ark preach the gospel of Christ? Might as well spend the money on something else..., but who knows, maybe God did call upon Ham to build such a museum? That's his own business. Just as I'm sure Noah was considered a fool by everyone else for building an Ark...

I do enjoy the latest Noah movie by another Aussie actor... it's not really the popular mainstream Christian interpretation, but I'm not even sure if the mainstream Christian version is for sure the real truth either.

Point is that I'm glad to have these multiple interpretations around..., I'm not going to accept them all, but I think it's interesting to have multiple point of views... so I get to see things I haven't considered before...

To me, if Jesus is Truth, I'm not afraid to have others who go against him.

Likewise, if certain scientific facts are true, who cares what others said against it?

Jesus can be beaten and crucified, but you can't keep him in a tomb forever!

When Albert Einstein 1st came up with theory of relativity, surely nobody agreed with it too... but in time, truth will always prevail eventually.

overpowered

August 16th, 2016, 01:15 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmhesMOb2IY

Crazed_Insanity

August 16th, 2016, 10:11 AM

Bible is not a scientific book nor a math book..., and probably can't even be considered as a history book using modern standards, but it is a "His Story" book.

Whether it's a book of facts or fiction, well, it all depends on your level of faith.

Considering just the beginning of the universe, human scholars have long believed universe is eternal without beginning or end because stars seemed to be pretty static over time... so it's probably easy for scholars back then the conclude that bible is BS. Until recent human history, now scientists have realized that universe might have a beginning after observing its expansion...and theory of relativity could also be used to reconcile the difference between 6 days and 14 billion years... creation sequence also matched fossil records very well...

Remember, Bible is a book written by sheperds thousands of years ago and cannot be revised..., but we can continue to make new discoveries thru science and other advancements... The reality that this book has lasted this long is already a miracle in itself. Out lasting the nation of Israel which created it..., but of course Israel was born again... but still, the bible has not only never disappeared like Israel, but reach global popularity that's unmatched yet... There's really also alot we can learn and discover out of the bible... believe it or not..., but for most of you, probably not. That's okay. Without faith, it'll be super difficult to accept God or His Word... ;)

21Kid

August 19th, 2016, 12:38 PM

An Incredible Interactive Chart of Biblical Contradictions (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/08/19/an-incredible-interactive-chart-of-biblical-contradictions/)
http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/files/2013/08/eWTc36C.jpg

edit: OoOooooh, this one (http://bibviz.com/#colorize:Crimson) is interactive.

overpowered

August 19th, 2016, 04:01 PM

Teen-raping Texas pastor gets life in prison after using the Bible to justify abusing women

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/08/teen-raping-texas-pastor-gets-life-in-prison-after-using-the-bible-to-justify-abusing-women/

overpowered

August 21st, 2016, 12:18 PM

http://www.malgusto.com/noticias/2016/201608_fotografias-18-curiosas35.gif

overpowered

August 21st, 2016, 01:43 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk

G'day Mate

August 21st, 2016, 02:56 PM

:up:

Crazed_Insanity

August 21st, 2016, 06:07 PM

The most amazing contradiction in the bible is probably this one(same book, same chapter, and 2 verses right next to each other):

Proverbs 26:4-5 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,or you yourself will be just like him. Answer a fool according to his folly,or he will be wise in his own eyes.

How can this author be so stupid to make such an glaring mistake?!?!? Which is it? What should a wise faithful man of god do with fools? Why are you trying to trick me God?

Or could there be something else?

Don't fall prey to becoming a logical fool...

Whether in bible or in reality, some times truth can have dual natures.

Is God pro life or pro choice?

Is light wave or particle?

The answer isn't limited to one or the other... Both also don't mean the answers are contradictory and false...

21Kid

August 22nd, 2016, 05:00 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk

yup :up:

overpowered

August 24th, 2016, 03:41 AM

1910

Admittedly, not all translations say unicorn.

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/34-7.htm

Crazed_Insanity

August 24th, 2016, 07:44 AM

https://carm.org/bible-unicorn

overpowered

August 26th, 2016, 08:14 PM

Yet another anti-gay pastor arrested for child molestation:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/08/26/ga-pastor-arrested-for-child-molestation.html

overpowered

August 28th, 2016, 08:10 PM

Anti-gay activist's wife divorces him so she can be with another woman. This sort of thing makes me laugh out loud every time.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/08/19/anti-gay-bigots-wife-divorces-him-another-woman/

G'day Mate

August 28th, 2016, 09:21 PM

I guess that explains why his home was flooded

Crazed_Insanity

August 29th, 2016, 12:34 PM

I'm not really sure why regardless of whether if you're religious or not, most folks somehow end up fixated on homosexuality... which affects only a very small minority of the populations. Or perhaps most people do have homosexual tendencies?

Jesus didn't come to save only homosexuals... or God didn't ONLY judged the homosexuals in OT...

God judged ALL unrepentant sinners in OT... and Jesus was sent to save all sinners who wants to be saved.

G'day Mate

August 29th, 2016, 05:21 PM

Interesting article on the unexpected power of prayer - Prayer: Silent but Deadly (http://www.atheistrepublic.com/blog/casperrigsby/prayer-silent-deadly)

A study conducted back in 2006 dealing with intercessory prayer found that there was no difference in post surgical complications or healing times between people who are prayed for and those who are not. This is to be expected, however what was not expected was the anomaly that occurred in one of the three subgroups of this study. Out of the three groups, only one actually knew they were being prayed for while the other two had no idea if they were or weren't being prayed for. The anomaly that was found was that when people know they're being prayed for it can actually be detrimental to the patient and can cause complications and a slower recovery time.

tigeraid

August 30th, 2016, 07:30 AM

:devil::lol:

Crazed_Insanity

August 30th, 2016, 07:55 AM

"I find your lack of faith disturbing..."

Seriously, the study doesn't mention the 'faith' level of the patients. As you all know, faith is a key factor for 'miracles' to take place. Even Jesus can't do much with folks who have no faith.

But anyway, assuming patients' faiths are all randomized and evenly distributed, the article also stated that another reason could be that patients probably thought they're so fucked that it's out of the doctor's hands so that's why the hospital's resorting to praying for them!!!

Anyway, just in case, I'll stop praying for Godson so that he can have a speedier recovery now... :p

overpowered

September 2nd, 2016, 11:18 PM

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2016/09/sadistic-religious-fanatic-mother-teresa-was-no-saint/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65JxnUW7Wk4

Crazed_Insanity

September 4th, 2016, 08:28 AM

I find that difficult to believe.

The word should've spread amongst the poor and they would've stayed away from her missionaries.

Surely media isn't all Catholics, otherwise they would not have reported altar boy abuses either.

overpowered

September 9th, 2016, 06:28 PM

Youth pastor rapes a 16 year old girl from his church. He gets 10 years. She can't go back to the church until she apologizes to the pastor's wife. :rolleyes: :angry:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/09/09/after-a-youth-pastor-raped-a-girl-their-church-asked-the-victim-to-apologize-to-the-pastors-wife/

Crazed_Insanity

September 9th, 2016, 07:55 PM

Uh, there's an update of the situation..., but of course why should you guys care because it's well known that Chriatians are just a bunch of lying homophobic gay rapists who's always blame victims and judge sinners because the bible taught them so...

overpowered

September 10th, 2016, 04:28 AM

The point is that the church is showing no compassion for the teenage rape victim who was raped by one of their leaders.

The problem is siding with the rapists and not their victims.

This is the same problem that I have with the Catholic Church. For decades they have simply moved the molesting priests around rather than give them up to authorities.

Crazed_Insanity

September 10th, 2016, 09:59 AM

The update disputes your point.

But you've already made up your mind that all Christians are lying judgmental assholes anyway so it doesn't matter. The entire church probably should be locked away along with that rapist.

overpowered

September 20th, 2016, 12:10 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYV7KWQ-fY4

G'day Mate

August 22nd, 2017, 05:55 AM

Can't help but laugh at the fundamentalist Christians claiming that the solar eclipse is a product of intelligent design because the sun and moon appear to be almost the same size when observed from Earth.

It's a spectacular cosmic event that you want to look at but, if you do, it will silently burn your eyes out.

Great design. I wonder how many of our ancestors went blind?

https://lintvwavy.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/800-31.jpeg?w=650

sandydandy

August 22nd, 2017, 07:08 AM

I was going to say, (but didn't want to revive this thread, glad you did though :)), that I was watching some nonsense about some cataclysmic event supposedly happening on September 23rd, with yesterday's eclipse being sort of a foreshadowing event. All religious nonsense I stumbled upon a couple of weeks ago on YouTube, while watching eclipse related videos.

Same concept as 2012, and every other doomsday type scenario these religious nutjobs go crazy over. And then when nothing happens you don't hear from them again...until the next date is arbitrarily chosen.

Crazed_Insanity

August 22nd, 2017, 11:15 AM

The end is near. Believers believe Jesus is coming back soon, we just don't know exactly when. Bible is clear that anyone who put a date on it is just bogus...

Anyway, likewise Elon Musk believes humanity will eventually come to an end soon so he wants to build a colony on mars to ensure survival of human species.

Whatever angle you want to look at this, on a comic time scale, humanity will soon cease to exist one way or another. The end really is very near if you look at it from a comic time scale...

Now, how come earth is this far from the sun? How come moon looks the same size as the sun? Do you really know the answers?

I'm sure back in the days, people can laugh at folks who think earth is round and revolves around the sun.

My recommendation for my self is that only have the last laugh if I'm pretty sure that I know the right answers.

Tom Servo

August 22nd, 2017, 05:33 PM

The moon doesn't always look the same size as the sun. In fact, I'd wager that it rarely does. It depends on how far away it is at the time of the eclipse - you can't really tell if it looks larger than the sun (and it did in this case, if they were exactly the same size then totality would have only lasted for an instant, not for a couple of minutes), and annular eclipses (https://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/k-4/stories/annular-eclipse) are also a thing.

Dicknose

August 22nd, 2017, 05:37 PM

The moon hasn't always been the same relative size as the sun and it won't remain that size.
It's slowly moving away, so go back a billion years and it was much bigger (and tides larger). Also the sun is slowly getting larger.
Go into the future and the moon will be further away and relatively smaller, less total eclipses, more annular eclipses and eventually no more total.
Estimates are between 500 million years and 1.2 billion years. Hard to know exactly when, there could be a long period with extremely rare total eclipses (like one every thousand years)

So yes we are at an unusual point in history, but it's such a huge time window (billions years or so) when the moon and sun are relatively the same size, that's is not much of a coincidence.

Freude am Fahren

August 22nd, 2017, 10:45 PM

BURN THE WITCH!

21Kid

September 11th, 2017, 09:14 AM

God to read thoughts and prayers once He’s finished destroying Florida (http://newsthump.com/2017/09/11/god-to-read-thoughts-and-prayers-once-hes-finished-destroying-florida/)

Crazed_Insanity

September 11th, 2017, 09:38 AM

Jesus never promised us a trouble free life, but did promised that we can have peace in him... even during storms and floods or walking thru some personal valley of death... all those things shall pass and he'll help thru those things.

G'day Mate

September 11th, 2017, 05:00 PM

God to read thoughts and prayers once He’s finished destroying Florida (http://newsthump.com/2017/09/11/god-to-read-thoughts-and-prayers-once-hes-finished-destroying-florida/)

:lol:

21Kid

October 27th, 2017, 09:06 AM

It's been too quite in here lately. ;)

Satanic Temple calls out Texas school district’s policy of beating kids (http://deadstate.org/satanic-temples-calls-out-texas-school-districts-policy-allowing-corporal-punishment/)

“Hopefully, our billboard will give pause to passersby who will be forced to confront the fact that the school district is being operated by depraved and ignorant sadists who have no business being in education,” Greaves said, according to Patheos. “The billboard should be a wakeup call that the school district trustees, who voted 6 – 0 for corporal punishment, need to be replaced by competent and humane members of the community who have children’s best interests at heart.”
http://deadstate.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Screen-Shot-2017-10-26-at-10.11.19-AM.png
Too bad I won't be able to read Billi's comments defending how he beats his child.

Crazed_Insanity

October 27th, 2017, 05:55 PM

Get the hell outta here you satanists!

Where are all the atheists who wish to stop child abuse? You guys are relying on Satan to save your kid? How unbelievable!

Tom Servo

October 28th, 2017, 09:01 AM

I'm terrified that I can't tell if Billi is joking or not.

Fiat500

October 29th, 2017, 06:25 AM

I'm thinking not.

Crazed_Insanity

October 29th, 2017, 11:38 PM

please take me as seriously as you take that satanic billboard.

If this thread is just going to be used to mock religions, then I think I'm entitled to mock satanists and atheists too.

Tom Servo

October 30th, 2017, 06:07 AM

Well, that didn't clear up much. Feel free to mock away, but try to be, ya know...better at it.

tigeraid

October 30th, 2017, 06:49 AM

Atheism, much like a lack of underwear, or a lack of a car, isn't a religion. But feel free to mock it, as is your right.

Crazed_Insanity

October 30th, 2017, 07:38 AM

Yes, glad to know that I have your full support to waste a thread/bandwidth like that.

Let's bring it on! We all have nothing better to do I suppose?

It's been too quiet here lately... so let me drop a bomb and not see how Billi reacts. Classy atheists we have here.

Are you serious Billi?

Yeah, I'm as fucking serious as you guys.

Is there really a need for this thread?

Should we really all act like Trump Jrs here in this thread?

If you have nothing to discuss, fuck off this thread.

Assholetheists or if you really prefer, you little devils.

Tom Servo

October 30th, 2017, 02:36 PM

You guys, I think we broke Billi. He's gone all paranoid and isn't making a whole lot of sense.

Dicknose

October 30th, 2017, 03:06 PM

I did enjoy the “get the hell” reference for satanists.

From my (limited) knowledge of satanists, many don’t actually believe in higher powers! Big false advertising. They do tend to have a bit more “what’s in it for me” view, without being what people would call evil.

As for atheists helping children, yes there are plenty. But as pointed out above, the vast majority of atheists don’t belong to an atheist organization or even think of themselves as atheists. They don’t say “what would Charles Darwin do?”
So asking what they are doing is probably similar to asking “what are left handed people doing?”

Religions on the other hand are based on beliefs and morals and they promote and advertise those. Is it then surprising that people get upset when the organizations and its leaders not only break these morals but seem to go to much effort to cover them up to protect the organization. They should be protecting the members, not the leaders.
It’s the massive hypocrisy that riles people.

G'day Mate

October 30th, 2017, 03:12 PM

We're all non-stamp-collectors

Crazed_Insanity

October 31st, 2017, 09:23 AM

Jesus didn't like the conservative religious hypocrites 2000 years ago either.

Strictly speaking 'religions' are indeed stupid. Jesus didn't come to this world to just give us another 'religion' or another 'stamp' to collect. Jesus actually delivers.

Satanists as you say are just a bunch of selfish worshippers who got the name of their leader from the Bible. I don't understand why they're so lazy that they can't write their own bible.

With regard to discipline kids, pretty sure eventually Satan will be able to convince you guys that isolating kid during a time out could cause emotional harm to the kid too...

Religion aside, do you guys believe we have more or less spoiled brats today compared to previous generations? I'm not saying we need to spank kids more, child abuse definitely won't solve that problem, but I do believe parents today are not raising their kids with proper discipline.

Dicknose

October 31st, 2017, 04:05 PM

I don’t think kids are much different.
Maybe they are given less unsupervised time outside, parents tend to like to know where they are, drive them there. Use to have a lot more “be home by dark”.

Behaviour wise, I don’t think much has changed, some are brats, some are good, most are good most of the time!

G'day Mate

April 3rd, 2018, 05:09 AM

Never seen this guy before. A good tongue-in-cheek look at religion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URr0O9aHW38

tigeraid

April 3rd, 2018, 07:33 AM

*clicks "Watch Later"

Crazed_Insanity

April 3rd, 2018, 10:01 AM

Okay, I don't have time to watch the entire video, but with regard to praying prior to our meals..., it's really mainly to have a grateful heart. By thanking God, it doesn't mean we totally ignore the cooks, retailers, farmers, butchers, the engineers who built the irrigation system, the truck drivers, the engineers who built the roads and bridges, etc. Having a grateful prayer thanking all parties involved would take nearly forever for hungry tummies. So since Christians believe the buck stops with God, we just thank Him and be over with it. Plus, this mean God could very well produce some natural disasters or incite folks to start wars... and the end result would be no food on the table, right? So there's nothing wrong with a short thankful prayer to the creator of the universe.

As for blessing the food we're about to eat, we idiot Christians just don't know if the food is organic or not... gluten free or not... poison free or not... nor do we know if it contains stuff that might be allergic to us... so we just pray that by eating this food, we hope to be able to maximize nutrient absorption and minimize getting sick! Now, if a Christian wishes to lose weight, maybe she can pray for diarrhea so that she won't gain too much weight after a meal. ;)

Anyway, to me, these are pretty stupid complaints.

You know, for Billi, he sounded like an idiot even prior to his conversion anyway! :p

Lastly, I don't understand why must a person reject this holy goat herder's guide in order to learn to embrace homosexuals. There's really no biblical evidence in that goat herder's guide telling me that Jesus would not befriend a homosexual... Wife and I actually do have homosexual friends in RL. Amazingly, they are actually devout Christians. One of them actually has a job serving God as a Chaplain at a hospital. Yes, mainstream Christians still don't have wide acceptance to gays for sure, but point is, I'm pretty sure Jesus Christ himself is not homophobic. I'm also not homophobic because I love a man named Jesus! :p

G'day Mate

April 3rd, 2018, 08:31 PM

Only just read your response to my article about the prayer study Billi ...

Seriously, the study doesn't mention the 'faith' level of the patients. As you all know, faith is a key factor for 'miracles' to take place. Even Jesus can't do much with folks who have no faith.

I think your response looks a lot like the No True Scotsman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) fallacy actually. Anyway ...

Faith: a strongly held belief based on no evidence, or in spite of evidence to the contrary.

In 2006 when the study was conducted around 30% (maybe even one third) of US citizens though that the bible was the literal word of the Christian god. Ignoring mountains of evidence against it (including contradictions within the bible) takes an awful lot of faith, so I don't think it's fair to say there would have been enough people in the study with enough "faith" to cause some kind of outcome. This should also be enough to overcome any kind of "doom induced" negative outcomes.

I suppose the other conclusion could be that those with "enough faith" were actually penalised by a deity that was not their own for so strongly believing the wrong thing?

Crazed_Insanity

April 3rd, 2018, 11:47 PM

In that study, there was clearly a nocebo effect going on, opposite of placebo.

Given that God doesn't exist, this nocebo effect is fascinating and should warrant further study. Or the main goal was just to prove God doesn't exist so mission accomplished and let just leave it at that? Make sure we don't knowingly pray for people so we won't endanger patients?

Or perhaps as you say there is a God, making folks suffer for whatever reasons... take His own Son for example. He prayed hard! Yet He was allowed to be tortured and crucified and God did absolutely nothing to stop it. What a cruel God!

Official goat herders guide is pretty clear. We shouldn't test God. There are also quantum experiments that end up with different results when you observe it differently.

Until we have the universe all figure out, it'll probably take a while for us to figure the creator of the universe out completely.

All I know is this, that the western civilization based themselves on that goat herders guide. Goat herders in other parts of the world also had their own guides and had awesome civilizations in the past.

After the test of time, Christianity with idiot believers seems to be working out better for some reason.

Dicknose

April 4th, 2018, 02:53 PM

Video TLDW...
But going off Billi comment about prayer before a meal, I think it’s a good thing. A moment to stop and reflect, be grateful for what we have and appreciate the help and efforts of others. Sure most are a “thank god”, but even as an atheist when I’m with someone who says a grace before a meal I do stop and for just a few seconds appreciate life.
They may be thanking their god, but hopefully they remember that this is via other people and that they are in their thoughts.

Crazed_Insanity

April 5th, 2018, 08:56 AM

Anyway, it is literally impossible for me to know exactly who or how many people were involved in order to make my meal in front of me possible, but guess what? Theologically, God knows. Grateful to God should be the same as being grateful to all those folks who made my meal possible.

If a Christian thinks that he only has to thank God and couldn't care less about other people, then this Christian obviously doesn't quite understand what Jesus is all about. The problem lies with him, not with Jesus nor Christianity itself.

BTW, I'm currently reading a book by canadian psychology professor Jordan B Peterson. He is actually very well versed with the bible and I agree a lot with his bible interpretations in his book, but according to wiki, I don't think he truly believes there is a God. He's kind afraid the God might exist, but he's probably leaning on the no God side...

Anyway, in his book, he was saying that there are actually no real 'atheists' in life... only folks who know or don't know which "God" they serve.

And 'Satan' has a job to confuse you..., either to make you not know which 'God' to serve or to dethrone this 'God' you're trying to serve.

Think of it as someone with a childhood passion or dream they're pursuing, then over the years he/she deviates from that and get lost or perhaps the mindset gets warped and became an extremist of his former passion?

I suppose the saddest scenario would be that 'Satan' does his work early so that a child came to this world having absolutely no passion nor dream whatsoever.

Anyway, my point is, if you want to be an atheist, make sure you still know what you're doing in life. I very much respect atheists like DN and this author I'm currently reading. Still able to value the good and wise part of the bible. If you're absolutely sure this goat herder's guide is absolute horseshit, then it's quite possible that satan has successfully tricked you.

You can be certain that the western civilization was not built up by atheists.

Of course, I'm not saying the west was built up by idiots either, but by God Himself and some less idiotic Christians! :p

Dicknose

April 5th, 2018, 06:05 PM

Not sure I agree on the no real atheists, seems to assume there is a god.
You can argue over atheist v agnostic - anyone who is truly atheist is doing so with a guess. But I think in practice there is no real difference between atheist and agnostic assuming no god. Happy to be proven wrong but not actively seeking an answer. If a god wants to get involved then they can do it.

And I don’t think we need a belief in god or afterlife to be decent people. The “golden rule” works if you believe in god, karma or just that’ is the right thing for a social creature

Tom Servo

April 5th, 2018, 07:31 PM

Similarly, I just read an article from a Christian-turned-atheist on Vice saying that we, as atheists, aren't quick enough to condemn the alt-right, many of which are atheist or agnostic. They kept referring to "the movement" and how it wasn't doing enough to distance itself from the alt-right.

Half the point of this is there isn't supposed to be a movement. I certainly don't feel like I belong to any "atheist" movement, it's just my default state. I don't get together with other atheists because they're atheist. It makes me wonder how different it must be for someone who grew up in religion and then ended up rejecting that religion vs. someone who just grew up without religion. There's one podcast I listen to where both of the people on it fall under that, and my brother in law does as well, and in neither of their cases do they seem to be particularly concerned with any "movement", so I dunno.

For the record, this atheist thinks the alt-right are a bunch of fuckheads that I'd love to launch into the sun.

G'day Mate

April 5th, 2018, 07:49 PM

The "grace" portion of that video where he talks about giving thanks is only quite small. Mostly he's comparing it to a spell of magical enchantment that people seem to cast over their food. Incidentally, I trained my dog to not eat any food put in front of him until given the command "grace".

An atheist isn't somebody who believes there is not god, an atheist just doesn't accept any of the god claims out there. I dunno who came up with the following explanation, but the main difference between a Christian (for example) and an atheist is that the atheist believes in just one less of the thousands of gods that have ever been postulated.

G'day Mate

April 5th, 2018, 07:51 PM

I certainly don't feel like I belong to any "atheist" movement, it's just my default state.

This is along the lines of the whole "atheism is a religion" rubbish.

Some people say that atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby. Bill Maher says that atheism is a religion in the same way that abstinence is a sex position.

Crazed_Insanity

April 5th, 2018, 11:55 PM

Anyway, in his book, he was saying that there are actually no real 'atheists' in life... only folks who know or don't know which "God" they serve.

And 'Satan' has a job to confuse you..., either to make you not know which 'God' to serve or to dethrone this 'God' you're trying to serve.

Think of it as someone with a childhood passion or dream they're pursuing, then over the years he/she deviates from that and get lost or perhaps the mindset gets warped and became an extremist of his former passion?

I suppose the saddest scenario would be that 'Satan' does his work early so that a child came to this world having absolutely no passion nor dream whatsoever.

Ok sorry, I didn't mean literally with the above words, that's why I put single quotations for God, Satan and atheists...

Naturally people has to be intellectually honest to themselves. If you don't think God exists, no point forcing yourself to think otherwise. However, point was that everyone is serving somebody somehow. Most people worship money and power. Addicts end up worshipping drugs and gambling and sex, etc... who do you place above you? Your wives, pets, kids, job... or nobody?

True 'atheist' won't place anything or anyone above himself nor will he do/serve anything to anyone. He also will be immune to any addictions whatsoever. That's what the author meant about no true 'atheists' I think... inevitably, we all will end up worshipping something...

tigeraid

April 6th, 2018, 04:42 AM

True 'atheist' won't place anything or anyone above himself nor will he do/serve anything to anyone.

Well, that's shockingly insulting. Go fuck your giant pope hat billi.

Crazed_Insanity

April 6th, 2018, 05:03 AM

Again, that 'atheist' wasn't meant as a literal atheist.

That author supposedly is an atheist according to wiki. DN is also a literal atheist who doesn't believe in the Christian God. However, I'm sure they actually do serve others and are not immune to addictions.

Point was, if you 'love', you're not really 'atheistic'. Buddha would be a true 'atheist'. But then Again even Buddha have great compassion for people so perhaps not (using authors stringent definition).

It is love that makes us 'worship' something/ somebody. One has to be incapable of love to be a true 'atheist'. That's what that author was talking about.

If you're a Scotsman and I'm claiming there are no true 'Scotsman', of course I can understand that's insulting, but I wasn't trying to insult anyone here... :p

Just redefining 'atheist' as someone not capable of love in this discussion. Are you an 'atheist'?

G'day Mate

April 6th, 2018, 05:46 AM

I think you need a better word than 'atheist' Billi ;)

Crazed_Insanity

April 6th, 2018, 06:39 AM

Yeah, I suppose.

Anyway, that was just to illustrate the point of humanity's need for God/Religion/Love. We can try very hard to shake off God and religion, but fundamentally, it'll be very difficult for us to shake off love... even for an atheist.

Likewise, love, just like God and religion, can be good and can also be warped to bad. 'Satan's' job would be to guide us to feel hatred for others or to feel unloved for self.

Tom Servo

April 6th, 2018, 06:47 AM

Hey, as long as I can redefine 'asian christian' as 'murderous rapist', then sure, you can redefine atheist as something not at all in line with the actual definition.

Crazed_Insanity

April 6th, 2018, 06:57 AM

Again, not trying to change dictionary definition here, but only to illustrate a point.

How are you feeling today? Are your feelings being led by 'God' or by 'Satan'.

Our current polarizing political climate is obviously due to "Satan's" handy work on both sides.

If you guys just absolutely cannot get the illustration, then okay, let's just use the words 'good' and 'evil', okay? :p

As for a person who just doesn't believe in either good or evil, what would you call that person? I think Buddha would be the closest thing, but even Buddha knows good and evil. So you have to be an unconscious zombie to not know good and evil then? Or perhaps a super innocent child born in paradise? What would you call such person? Adam and Eve in their pre-fallen state..., do such person(s) exist in our world?

That's what I think the author meant by no true 'atheist'. Anyway, sorry for the confusion, but I think this will be my last attempt at clarification. If you just don't get it, then please just stop reading Billi's posts to torture yourself! My intention was not to offend, I'm trying my best to clarify, but if Satan kept on adding oil to your fire whenever you're reading Billi's post, or if you think Billi is Satan himself, it's probably best that you stop reading. :p

And I will stop typing for now.

Tom Servo

April 6th, 2018, 07:13 AM

Thank you for no longer using those definitions, I hope you can understand why that was offensive.

Honestly, I think someone who doesn't see "good or evil" sounds a heck of a lot like psychopathy. Otherwise, I think if you have any empathy at all you'll end up with some sort of moral compass, and depending on where that compass points your definition of good vs. evil will be different. E.g., I think it's evil to bankrupt people if they get sick, so we should have universal healthcare. Someone else thinks it's evil to demand that a successful person pay for the healthcare of a destitute person, especially if that successful person has taken care of their health while the destitute person has not.

I also don't necessarily believe that our current political climate would be obviously due to "evil" workings. I would assume people on both sides feel the way they do because they feel that their opinions are the "good" side of things. In the above example, I don't think you can boil that down to 'love' vs. 'lack of love'. It's love for different groups of people in different ways that draws that out, and when you have a system with resource constraints, there will always be people who end up being hurt in some way. It's how you prioritize it, which is a lot more flexible than good vs. evil.

G'day Mate

April 6th, 2018, 07:27 AM

I don't think 'love' needs to be muddled with religion. We have evolved as a social species and, as with other social species, it's beneficial for us to take care of the community. In intense cases the instinct creates a chemical reaction which we interpret as love.

So if God is good and Satan evil, why does god allow Satan to get away with so much?

Crazed_Insanity

April 6th, 2018, 07:31 AM

Yes, I guess I also didn't mean good and evil in any absolute sense. Conservatives and liberals love different things, so they end up disagreeing. I think even psychopaths love or are driven by something so that they end up doing what they do. They don't just do things for no reason at all, do they? I'm not an expert in psychopathic behavior...

Back to our current political climate, it's fine for the 2 sides to love different things, just as it's fine to have freedom of religion. However, evil began to wiggle itself in the mix when the 2 sides begin to hate the other side... that'll usually escalate or manifest into violence. I think unless you're a psychopath, most people would agree that violently suppressing the other side is evil? Certain wars may be justifiable, but most would agree they're evil nonetheless?

Crazed_Insanity

April 6th, 2018, 07:33 AM

So if God is good and Satan evil, why does god allow Satan to get away with so much?

Hey, let's not muddle religion into this. ;)

If we have good and evil in this world, why does good allow evil to get away with so much in this world?

G'day Mate

April 6th, 2018, 07:40 AM

Without getting into moral relativism, good does try to stop evil and is mostly successful, but since there's no omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent overlord to keep things in line a few evils slip through the cracks every so often :P

Crazed_Insanity

April 6th, 2018, 08:20 AM

G'day Mate

April 7th, 2018, 04:21 AM

That's a fairly vague question. If I said that evil things happen therefore it is possible for evil to triumph, does that answer?

I consider humans to be just a small part of the bigger picture of nature though, and nature contains some seriously sci-fi horror movie shit! Insects that lay their eggs inside other insects to hatch, burst out and devour their host, and ants that are turned to zombies by a mind-controlling fungus. In each of those cases though it's just the way something has evolved to reproduce. Seems evil, but is it? Evil is a human concept.

My belief is that the world is the way you would expect it to be in the absence of a god. You only need to start explaining things if you want to insert one.

Tom Servo

April 7th, 2018, 08:28 AM

Crazed_Insanity

April 7th, 2018, 03:54 PM

Good day, let's just say there's no God for now. Let's even get rid of the concept of good and evil.

For life to spring up on a planet where rest of the planetary system remains dead, how would you describe that? Let's just call that 'whoa'!

Now after a while, some sort of cancerous organism sprang up into existence and cause that planets ecosystem to completely collapse back to deadness... let's just call that 'aw man'!

I suppose we don't always have to include life into 'whoa' events. Birth of a star or galaxy or universe can be 'whoa' events too. Likewise their subsequent ends can be 'aw man'...

So on that premise, do you believe 'whoas' will always triumph over 'aw mans' or the reverse... or be exactly 50/50?

FaultyMario

April 7th, 2018, 05:00 PM

Oh man, that reminds me of the first time I saw a tarantula hawk. Looked freaky enough, but I had no idea what it was and looked it up when I got home. That thing is straight out of a nightmarish hellscape - it almost seems like it enjoys torturing tarantulas.

Back when I was young and fit and I went for long rides out in the bunnies, I remember the first few times I saw tarantulas out in the wild* I could not believe how fast they were and how far they could leap.

*I read somewhere that my state, Oaxaca, is home to many of the 66 tarantula species of Mexico.

G'day Mate

April 7th, 2018, 05:20 PM

IMOA

April 7th, 2018, 07:37 PM

So even without this omnibenevolent overlord watching over us, you believe good can always triumph over evil? Or do you believe in 50/50... or perhaps you believe evil will always triumph over good in the end?

What basis do you have for your belief?

Yes. Basis for that belief is that objectively the world is in the best place its ever been (reduction in wars, reduction in poverty etc) and at the same time we’ve had a measurable reduction in people involved in organised religion. Basically as ‘God’ has played a smaller part in the worlds affairs Good has been more successful triumphing over evil.

And to be clear, I have no issue with religion at a micro level, I’ll fight very strongly for your right to believe in things I don’t believe in and I’m not in the slightest bit offended by the stuff you say here. But on a macro level the less that ‘God’ is involved the better things seem to go.

Crazed_Insanity

April 7th, 2018, 09:35 PM

Three of the most likely ends to the universe are heat death, a big crunch or a big rip, so under each of those scenarios (and ignoring possible universes outside of our own) I'd say we're ultimately heading to "aww man", but that's not really evil now is it? I think you're going to have to get to the point of what you're saying ...

My point is that at worst, it's 50/50, but 'whoas' will always have an advantage because 'aw mans' can only follow 'whoas'.

Also, universe and everything within is headed toward certain destruction, but it's difficult to be certain where new births might take place... and whoa events almost always appears 'miraculous'.

Crazed_Insanity

April 7th, 2018, 10:14 PM

Yes. Basis for that belief is that objectively the world is in the best place its ever been (reduction in wars, reduction in poverty etc) and at the same time we’ve had a measurable reduction in people involved in organised religion. Basically as ‘God’ has played a smaller part in the worlds affairs Good has been more successful triumphing over evil.

And to be clear, I have no issue with religion at a micro level, I’ll fight very strongly for your right to believe in things I don’t believe in and I’m not in the slightest bit offended by the stuff you say here. But on a macro level the less that ‘God’ is involved the better things seem to go.

Naturally I believe in the contrary. If Christ never came 2000 years ago, I firmly believe the western world would be at the similar level as the rest of the world.

Europe is definitely more secular now. Is it really better than before? Likewise America... why would there be a need to make it great again?

Anyway, I do agree that given that we have varying beliefs and can't definitively prove our beliefs, we do need to learn to agree to disagree lovingly. Christian crusades were definitely evil. Surely God doesn't need us to defend Him like that.

G'day Mate

April 8th, 2018, 01:22 AM

My point is that at worst, it's 50/50, but 'whoas' will always have an advantage because 'aw mans' can only follow 'whoas'.

Also, universe and everything within is headed toward certain destruction, but it's difficult to be certain where new births might take place... and whoa events almost always appears 'miraculous'.

I'm still not sure what point about religion you're making sorry

Crazed_Insanity

April 8th, 2018, 05:12 AM

My point was simply to show you how I believe good can always triumph over evil. Further, how evil is of this world, but good seems to be out of this world.

Of course I'm not trying to prove any case for organize religion, but just saying it seems like something outside of this world created this world. Of course just because I don't understand something like how the universe began or how life began, that doesn't really prove God, I could very well be wrong, but I could be right too. We all have the free will to choose whatever we want to believe.

Even if you just can't believe in God, at least you can believe good can always triumph over evil, right? Or you still cannot answer this vague question? ;)

G'day Mate

April 8th, 2018, 06:20 AM

Righto, I've been trying to reconcile what you've been saying with god or religion which is why I didn't understand your point.

I don't think that good can always triumph over evil though. Not without a time machine at least!

Crazed_Insanity

April 8th, 2018, 07:08 AM

Like I said, death and destruction can only happened to something in existence right? If whoas never happened, aw mans can also never happen. You can't destroy something not there, right?

This gives whoas the upper hand.

Further, we already know that destruction of stars can result in creation of heavier elements. Death of my body can also end up feeding more plants... and death of Jesus ended up saving all humanity! Ok, ok, let's try to leave religion out for a minute... point is I really believe that you will know with certainty good can triumph over evil with a time machine.

G'day Mate

April 8th, 2018, 01:21 PM

Good can but doesn't always, and on a cosmic scale I'd say ultimately the balance of "whoa" vs "aww" is neutral

Crazed_Insanity

April 8th, 2018, 03:26 PM

Yes. Let's do cosmic scale.

However, whoa is always the leader of the pair. You don't think that gives whoas a slight advantage?

Further, as hard as aw man tries to destroy, we just keep on seeing more and more complex elements, life forms and star systems that will make you say WHOA!

Who knows what will transpire as our universe is destroyed... probably paving a way for a better universe! ;)

G'day Mate

April 9th, 2018, 05:01 AM

From that perspective, if the scientists are right about any of the theories I mentioned above then the "aww" will have the last say, which is an ultimate "win". Nice try, futile universe!

Crazed_Insanity

April 9th, 2018, 07:54 AM

I'm pretty sure scientists are right about the end of the universe.

My point had been that while it may seem that the 'aw mans' are ultimate winners if you're living in it, but if you look at it from the outside perspective, it's never the ultimate end. Often such destruction only paved the way for another more awesome 'whoa' to follow! Universe grows ever more complex, similar to lifeforms on earth... all thanks to prior destroyed things. ;)

For nothingness/destruction/evil to truly win, it has to be powerful enough to ensure 'whoas' never ever happen again. Then I can be convinced that good can never triumph over evil!

It is evil that is operating in futility. :p

Anyway, these are just our own beliefs, we can choose to believe whatever we want and never be able to prove ourselves right.

God is love. Our love isn't quite God, but 'image of God'. Still better than nothing. Without any sort of love, our existence would truly be futile and meaningless...

G'day Mate

April 9th, 2018, 06:24 PM

Actually under a "Big Rip" (my personal favourite) time would cease to exist. I think the would be the same for "Big Crunch" as well

Crazed_Insanity

April 9th, 2018, 07:45 PM

When there's absolutely nothing left, not even space and time, now we can get back to God with our discussion... ;)

Yes, God is timeless or eternal. He doesn't need time. He could speak another much marvelous universe into existence.

If Satan can truly destroy God, then I'll suppose I'll be a Satanist. Until then, I wouldn't worship somebody who's can't beat God. :p

G'day Mate

April 10th, 2018, 05:43 AM

This is also long but amusing. A tongue-in-cheek talk given by Matt Dilahunty from the perspective of God ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GYI0WZCquc

Crazed_Insanity

April 10th, 2018, 01:58 PM

Too damn long man! :p

Okay, let me counter that with something less amusing and shorter, but hopefully can also encourage more dialogue between both sides...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwE4nhJkEKA

Crazed_Insanity

April 26th, 2018, 05:43 PM

Anyway, just want to note for the atheist folks here that religion really isn't the root of humanity's evil. INCELs have proven that pretty well.

Moderation is really the key... extremism of any kind leads people astray...

Entitlement is also something dangerous too I suppose. I'm entitled to have sex! I'm entitled to have guns, I'm entitled to whatever... yeah, fuck you!

Tom Servo

April 26th, 2018, 09:00 PM

I'm glad you've come to find out that the thing you've accused us of thinking, despite us repeatedly attempting to explain to you that that's not the case, is not what we think.

Crazed_Insanity

April 26th, 2018, 09:09 PM

What exactly are you talking about?

Tom Servo

April 27th, 2018, 09:06 AM

Anyway, just want to note for the atheist folks here that religion really isn't the root of humanity's evil.

I'm really tired of people assuming I think that.

Crazed_Insanity

April 27th, 2018, 09:47 AM

Well, do you believe none of the atheists in this forum thought that as well?

My comment wasn't specifically aimed for you also.

I do believe the growing sentiment for atheists in general is freedom from religion rather than freedom of religion because, to them, religions offer little good but often cause lot more bad... Am I wrong with such belief?

If all of you atheists here truly believe humanity's past and present evils were not really caused by religion(s), then I apologize for my comment.

Anyway, my main point is that humanity can be really messed up at times. No mental healthcare professional can help thos INCELs. Prostitutes also won't be able to help them because they might be too cheap to pay... there's really no hope for those INCELs...

But Jesus came to save even them and die on the cross for them. If only they knew how much they are loved..., then maybe there'll be less tragedies...

tigeraid

April 27th, 2018, 12:15 PM

Tom Servo

April 27th, 2018, 12:36 PM

- I would believe that the vast majority of atheists in here think similarly to me, though much like religious people, not all atheists are the same (which was my main objection - what I took as an assertion that all atheists are the same). Religion is often good and a useful thing for many people. I just don't like it when someone expects me to follow it too. You do you, you let me do me.

- You addressed it to "atheist folks here". Not sure how I should feel like it's not addressing me, I am 100% included in that group. Well...at least I know I'm here and I'm an atheist, I suppose it's possible that I'm not "folk", but I'm pretty sure I am.

- You aren't wrong, but you're incomplete. Religions offer little good but a lot more bad *for us*. Freedom from religion doesn't mean demanding other people be free of religion too, unless they want to be. It just means "don't make laws based solely on a specific religion's beliefs." For example, I'm not a fan of the idea that kids in school are expected to say the pledge of allegiance with the words "under God" in it, and I didn't say that part when I went to school. Admittedly, I'm not a fan of the pledge of allegiance anyway, it seems weird and dictator-y to demand that all schoolchildren start each morning declaring their allegiance to something, but that's besides the point. I don't like that religion is often used to ignore climate science, or to limit other people's rights.

- Again, you're lumping everyone together. You know what? There may be an atheist or two on this forum who do think that. That doesn't mean every atheist thinks that.

- I don't think you're going out on a limb to say that humanity can be really messed up at times. I do think you're going out on a limb to say that mental healthcare professionals can't help Incels, I think part of what the problem is now is that instead of finding guidance, potentially within a religion or with a therapist, they end up in internet echo chambers that amplify their grievances, that let them blame their problems on everyone else, that they are good people who are being wronged. Still, the vast majority of people who consider themselves "incels" are not going to go out and murder people.

I agree wholeheartedly that religion is not the root of all evil, but I do think it has often been used as a tool to do evil things. I also think there are people who might otherwise be evil were it not for the specter of an eternal afterlife of torment if they don't behave themselves. I've been asked in the past why I don't just steal and rape and murder because there's no final judgment, and it always scares me that these people sound like they would *totally be doing that* if it weren't for the fear of eternal damnation. Religion has its place, and probably always will. If I had to pick a root of all evil, it'd be fundamentalism, but that's me.

So, in short - I agree with you. Religion is not the root of all evil, and extremism/fundamentalism is definitely up there as a major cause. I just take exception at you lumping all atheists together, myself included, as disagreeing.

Crazed_Insanity

April 27th, 2018, 01:13 PM

Many of our past and prevent evils were caused by religion. The "system" of religion. The bureaucracy. The lies and the control. As I've ranted many times in the past, faith and religion are separate entities. I have no faith but I have no problem with anyone who does. I will pleasantly debate them regarding their sky goblin deity if they want, but I have no problem with something that gets them through the day.

Organized religion is a system of control that takes ADVANTAGE of that faith. Indoctrination into a rigid ruleset that is outdated, often bigoted, and stunts human progress in the extreme. Organized religion provides no positive benefit to mankind. SOME members OF said religion may provide benefits (small local churches running charity drives, for example), certainly, but that is in SPITE of the system that controls them.

If organized religion blinked out of existence tomorrow (again, not FAITH), the world would be measurably better, and many evils would disappear. This is a simple truth. That doesn't mean there aren't evils separate of religion altogether.

I think it's kinda hard separate faith from religion. If all churches and bibles were to disappear, how does one maintain faith? In what?

If you're specifically talking about 'organized' religion, then let's just focus in on the 'organized' part...

Is INCEL group a religion? Surely not, but clearly internet has allowed them to 'organize'.

But even without "organization", a twisted individual could still out of frustration end up doing some evil all by himself.

So I think it's the warped ideology that people take to the extreme that end up manifest as evil in this world.

Anything can be this "ideology", it could be religion based, it could be politically based, whether from the nazi alt right whities or left wing antifa... Almost any 'idea' can be warped and pushed to the extreme. Given enough time and enough hopelessness and enough sense of entitlement, even Flying Spaghetti Monster can be used to brainwash folks into doing something stupid.

Crazed_Insanity

April 27th, 2018, 01:17 PM

Dicknose

April 27th, 2018, 10:35 PM

I also think there are people who might otherwise be evil were it not for the specter of an eternal afterlife of torment if they don't behave themselves. I've been asked in the past why I don't just steal and rape and murder because there's no final judgment, and it always scares me that these people sound like they would *totally be doing that* if it weren't for the fear of eternal damnation.

Ditto.

And asking “where do you get your morals?”
Like they can only come from a deity (or the people runnning said deities earthly operation!)

It’s possible to be a good person without religion.
Got plenty of examples of believers who are bad.

Crazed_Insanity

April 28th, 2018, 12:28 AM

What is 'good' though?

Who gets to define what good really is?

Likewise what is bad?

People can justify crucifying Jesus because they deemed him to be a bad dude at the time.

Can one really believe in moral relativism and at the same time know what really is 'good'? Isn't that kinda like traveling in a stormy nite without a compass at sea and insisting you know which direction you're heading?

Okay, let's just assume you really do know what good is, aren't you doing it because you want to make this world a better place(create heaven) and not cause too much suffering(create hell on earth for somebody else)?

We're not really all that different.

It's just that you believe you can be naturally good without guidance, whereas I default myself as naturally bad and can easily be lost without guidance.

When weather is good, guidance system seems unnecessary, but when it gets dark and stormy, can you really be that confident in yourself?

tigeraid

April 28th, 2018, 07:05 AM

Apparently "who gets to define what good really is" is a bunch of backward savages from the stone ages, or King James.

As I've said many, many times in this thread, altruism and charity have been observed and documented countless times in nature (much like homosexuality!) You do not need a religion to be inherently good.

Crazed_Insanity

April 28th, 2018, 11:56 AM

Thing is that there no good nor bad in moral relativism. We can observe a lot in nature, but that doesn't mean everything observable is 'good' and not observable is 'bad'. I've yet to witness anything traveling to space naturally, so it's therefore bad to launch people into space?

Each species in nature has in the past been programmed either thru it's Creator or by evolution to follow their own code of ethics... and not to do whatever the heck they want in order to ensure its long term survival. My point is that we ought not to look down upon all past traditions as backwards. If they've managed to help us survived this long, maybe they have some values!

Speaking of homosexuality, even they recognize the 'good' in human marriages, which isn't really observable in nature...

The funny thing is that we humans failed miserably at marriage. Lots of folks get divorce or just end up in loveless boring marriages. If another intelligent species were observing us, I'm sure they'd conclude that marriage is a horrible idea! :D

Dicknose

April 28th, 2018, 01:06 PM

I don’t think “in nature” makes something good or bad, just natural.

And it’s hard to put down any absolutes, because someone will come up with an example that confuses it.
Murder = bad, but what about self defense?
Slavery = bad, but what about prisoners?

The “golden rule” is a great starting point. And try to make it a better place for everyone.

Obviously we are also selfish and that’s ok. Don’t need to give everything to charity. But don’t be too greedy, certainly not to the direct expense of others.

See... you can be off to a start and could discuss morals with someone else and see where you agree or even disagree.
And it’s all about me/you/everyone/those still to come.
Doesn’t need a deity. Doesn’t need devine guidance, reward or threat.

Certainly when it comes to laws I don’t think there is any place for religion.
But I also think that my morals shouldn’t define the laws. There are plenty of grey areas where I wouldn’t do something, but don’t think it’s serious enough to stop others. Things like drugs and prostitution. Lots of people are against it because they don’t think it’s morally right. They would not do it. Someone saying “it’s immoral” is not a good reason to ban something. Saying “people are harmed” is a reason. Even then it needs to be a reasonable balance - if harm was the only reason to ban it, we would ban cars.

And now jumping back to religion...
One of the big problems with religious belief (rather than religious institutions) is that many followers take it as fact that their religion is true and that it is some absolute that must apply to everyone. It’s part of their belief that it should be imposed on everyone, because it is “gods word”.
So instead of their religion being between them and their god or even their church group, suddenly it’s something they expect to force on everyone. Typically they will deny they force their religion on you (you don’t have to believe) but they will try to force the religions morals.
This becomes a big problem if a religion dominates a country.

What I find very hypocritical is that people scream about Muslims introducing sharia law, but happily do the same thing with Christianity. Don’t do X because the bible said so. But without a hint of it happening, post in Facebook saying “lookout Muslims want to ban people eating bacon or going to the beach in a bikini”.
Hang on - so “do unto others” suddenly goes away when it’s “make my religion law”.

Religion is a very poor way for a society to pick laws and morals. Because we don’t agree on a religion. So anyone saying “because my religion” is saying basically nothing to other people, other than they are intolerant and controlling (and yes - that’s bad)

Crazed_Insanity

April 28th, 2018, 02:05 PM

Crazed_Insanity

April 28th, 2018, 02:16 PM

As for your other concerns, I believe early Christian American founding fathers share with you the same concerns...

We're not a theocracy not because they don't believe in God but because they know the human tendencies of powerful men disregarding golden rule.

Religious persecutions can also be problematic, hence the need to have freedom of religion.

Definitely have no need for religious laws, but our secular laws are based somewhat on the golden Judeo Christian rule... and it is that foundation which propelled the western cultures way forward than other cultures.

Tom Servo

April 28th, 2018, 03:35 PM

Golden rule is a great starting point? Really? I wonder what's the origin of the golden rule?

Besides it's origin, perhaps it's also just common sense too for typical mentally healthy person. So if everyone were not hypocritical and follows such rule, will moral relativism still exist in human culture? I honestly don't think so.

I do believe if anyone on earth who had practiced the golden rule perfectly... that person would be Jesus.

Well, the earliest known mention of what we now call the Golden Rule came from the story of The Eloquent Peasant, reflecting the Egyptian goddess Ma'at, dating back to sometime between 2040-1650 BC.

EDIT: and of course moral relativism would still exist. For example, I think we can all agree murder is bad, but as Dicknose mentions, what about self-defense? I think we can probably all agree that killing someone to save your own life is okay, but how do you know you are in imminent mortal danger before it's too late? On lesser crimes we might still differ - what if someone steals bread from a baker to feed their family because they don't have enough money to buy it? Even if you apply the golden rule, different people are going to feel differently about that. A person who can barely feed his family will feel differently about that than someone who's sunk his life savings into making a bakery and is having a hard time making ends meet.

Crazed_Insanity

April 28th, 2018, 09:10 PM

Golden rule is almost commonsensical and a central tenet of Christianity. Yeah, Egyptians predates Christ the man, but natural selection has managed to eliminate that religion as one of the possible true religions... :p

Anyway, back to discussing the golden rule, if everyone practices it, why would there be a need to defend my life at all? Of course that'd be the ideal world. In this real world, Christ himself has demonstrated that while most won't think self defense is wrong, it's still not quite right either. Christ himself has never attempted self defense even to the point of death. That is the kind of morality in the absolute sense. No matter what happens, Jesus knows justice will prevail after crucifixion. Evil simply won't prevail in the end.

For us imperfect beings, of course we won't be able to do as perfectly, thats perhaps why we need moral relativism to justify ourselves?

Anyway, as lousy and imperfect as a lot of Christians are, people in the west are making progress moving closer to this absolute morality faster than folks in other cultures by following Jesus.

G'day Mate

April 28th, 2018, 09:24 PM

Crazed_Insanity

April 28th, 2018, 11:37 PM

I agree true religion shouldn't be based on popularity; however, it should at least survive, right? Who on earth still believe in that Egyptian goddess?

To qualify under consideration as a possible true religion, it needs to have a sufficiently old beginning and to also have some present day relevance too, right?

If nobody worships Jesus anymore and civilization goes on just fine, I would take that as proof enough that Jesus is just a bogus myth...

Anyway, I think the race is down to just 5 legit world religions. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism.

Dicknose

April 29th, 2018, 01:06 PM

Dicknose

April 29th, 2018, 01:29 PM

Back to morals...

The golden rule might seem obvious, but why follow it?
Why should I care about others or making society better - why not be out for me?
Obviously to live and function in a society I need to fit in, but why not do just enough to fit in, but screw everyone else and live the best way for just me.

And yes there are people like that. Heck we are all like that to some degree. We put ourselves first, family and close friends next, neighbours and other friends etc. We don’t treat total strangers the same way we would our family.

To survive, reproduce and continue as a species we need to balance selfishness and your survival with cooperation and the groups survival.

The golden rule is a great starting point for how to function as a collective.
It doesn’t say “put the collective first”, that is too big of an ask. It says “don’t be any more selfish than you would expect of others”

Game theory shows that is a cooperative group where there is a cost to individual to help others, that it is best if everyone helps. The cost is outweighed by the reward of the group.
However, any individual who skips their part and still gets the group benefit is ahead! Reward for no cost.
If everyone (or even a majority) do this then the system is worse and breaks down.
There should be a balance between selfish and cooperative.

In reality it’s not black and white, it’s a scale. Some people are very selfish, some are very cooperative.
Pyscopaths tend to be at the selfish end, martyrs at the other end.

As a group we have worked out we need to adjust the balance, reward and punish to encourage the system towards cooperation. Some of this is internal, morals and conscience. Others are external, laws, justice, heroes.
It’s not surprising that religion has played a role in this, giving us morals and a reward/punishment in an afterlife.
But religion is working with something that was already there. You could say that evolved or was given by god.
But it’s clear that we have morals and the ability to work together already wired into us. Yes even psychopaths.

You don’t need to be religious for this to work. You certainly don’t need to be of any specific religion!

Crazed_Insanity

April 29th, 2018, 02:54 PM

And here is the bit I find hilarious about religion...
People worry which is “true”
But it involves an all powerful being, who could instantly solve this problem.
Is it Jesus, Muhammed or Ra?

Just send us a message, a clear message, not this “it’s in a sunrise” or “holy book” - it’s clear each religion thinks it’s book is the only true book.
It would stop a lot of fighting and problems in the world.
But oh no - you need to work it out via belief and 3rd hand evidence

Why be so obtuse, just be clear.

And now so you might see how I feel about it.
You know Thor is the true god. He sends us a reminder every time there is thunder.
He is so important that we still honour him with a day of the week.

Thor and Jesus and all the others seem no more true to me. Sure some are more popular today.
But a god should be able to make it clear they exist.
If they can’t do that, then I put them in the same pile with Ra and Thor.

Since God is love, I think it's the same with the game of love. We just can't be that straightforward with it.

Sure for somebody who already likes me, I could be clear and just tell her I like her and want to be with her and have things work out between us.

However, what if the girl I like at the moment has no feeling for me... or perhaps doesn't even find me attractive? Then such clear and direct strategy just won't work... and it might even cause the girls to freak out and not like a creep like me even more!

So when this is the case, God needs to utilize something like the System to up your interest level. To give you just enough indication the He loves you, but not to come on too strong. If you really just don't like Him, that's cool, He'll just move on to somebody else! ;)

Anyway, just my guess, I can't really speak for God. Still, biblical history is clear that God can make Himself perfectly clear such as splitting the Red Sea to save your ass, but that's still not enough to gain Israelites hearts.

I really believe clear and direct won't work in matters of love. If you don't love somebody, then you just don't love somebody. In that case, it's probably better for you to just know that God doesn't exist.

Crazed_Insanity

April 29th, 2018, 03:07 PM

Regarding morals, like I said earlier, different species developed their own code of ethics that maximizes their long term survival. Who knows if such ethical behavior evolved naturally with their genes or perhaps Creator programmed it in?

Maybe the Creator programs the creatures thru evolution itself? Obviously these creatures are programmable and reprogramable in the future... God could be using nature to reprogram us or even toss down water or big rocks to reset the entire system if He wants...

But I'd also concede that it is definitely possible that what's happening in nature is just happening naturally without any supernatural interference...

However, I still believe somebody must've created nature. Mother Nature can't possibly created herself without God, right?

The buck has to stop somewhere, right?

How did Mother Nature pop into existence?

One can only say that we don't need something as ridiculous as a God to a point...

G'day Mate

May 28th, 2018, 06:37 PM

In news from the trial of Cardinal George Pell ... there is none. I'm guessing the the super-injunction sought by prosecutors was successful, meaning that the media cannot even report on the existence of the trial until it is over.

Unfamiliar? Let Tim Minchin give you some context:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtHOmforqxk

MR2 Fan

May 29th, 2018, 04:57 PM

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/avOxDZ5_460s.jpg

SportWagon

May 30th, 2018, 09:34 AM

Strange, the only mention of "Rand" in this thread seems to be in a quotation by tigeraid where "Rand Paul" is mentioned.

Tom Servo

May 30th, 2018, 10:53 AM

Well, there was that time we were talking about Rand-y Macho Man Savage. Did that count?

MR2 Fan

May 30th, 2018, 01:13 PM

There's Rand McNally if you need a Map

Cam

June 2nd, 2018, 09:12 AM

Savage. :lol:

3050

Tom Servo

June 2nd, 2018, 10:10 AM

You should really post this sign prior to something like that.

https://i.imgur.com/vNI0eYh.jpg

Crazed_Insanity

June 2nd, 2018, 11:13 AM

Probably the Holy Spirit talked to them about your art works...

G'day Mate

June 3rd, 2018, 08:29 PM

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Hell2.jpg

A village in Norway (https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/7517+Hell,+Norway/@63.4445566,10.885462,14.58z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x466d16fb3ae6fd6d:0x1596b57897c52 a6b!8m2!3d63.4451715!4d10.9052167) apparently ...

Tom Servo

June 3rd, 2018, 09:09 PM

Hell is actually reasonably sized city, with a train station along the main rail route from Trondheim into Sweden, went through it a few years ago. Seemed nice enough, though I didn't get a chance to explore.

Fun fact: I'm still learning Norwegian and the flashcard app I was using came up with the Norwegian word for hell, which is "helvete". I already knew it because Black Metal. :hard:

EDIT: I stand corrected. Hell itself is actually quite small, about 1,500 people in just over a square km. The surrounding kommune appears to have happily run with it though, as I remember a mid-sized skyscraper happily advertising "HELL" across the top.

Futher edit: I'm guessing that I saw the Hell Kjopesenter, which is in a nearby town called Sandfaerhus.

Crazed_Insanity

June 4th, 2018, 09:40 AM

Never been to that Hell, but I've been to Hell, Grand Cayman Island, and back!

SportWagon

June 5th, 2018, 07:13 AM

So the Norwegian for "Hell" is somewhat similar to what I thought the Swiss name for Switzerland was (based on my childhood "stamp-collecting", i.e. processing of one of those bags of stamps they used to sell for children). Though it seems that Helvetia (Helvetica) is somehow the female personification of Switzerland, and not quite its name.

Of course, like some pairs of similar words or names in English, the similarity might never really be noticeable by Norwegians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHell,_Norway#Helvete_and_Helvetia?

speedpimp

June 5th, 2018, 07:53 AM

Hell is also a small village in Michigan.

G'day Mate

December 12th, 2018, 01:46 PM

I hear that Cardinal George Pell has been found guilty?

The Australian media is not allowed to report on it.

Crazed_Insanity

December 12th, 2018, 01:56 PM

You guys don't have freedom of press?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/pope-cardinals-pell-abuse.html

Anyway, prime example of something being too big and ended up causing way too much trouble.

G'day Mate

December 12th, 2018, 02:10 PM

There is a gag order of the highest level in effect to maintain impartiality for those involved in the trial.

Freude am Fahren

December 12th, 2018, 02:22 PM

Well, once he's been found guilty the gag order should be lifted, right?

G'day Mate

December 12th, 2018, 02:38 PM

There's still another trial to come

Crazed_Insanity

December 12th, 2018, 03:14 PM

Wow, interesting, gag the entire media of a nation? Impressive.

Can you google international news? Do internet search engines cooperate with this as well?

G'day Mate

December 12th, 2018, 03:29 PM

It's called a "superinjunction". Right before it landed the media was explaining that it could happen and that, if it did, they wouldn't even be able to report on the superinjunction. The first two rules of Superinjunction Club are that you don't talk about Superinjunction Club.

From what I've seen there are some international sites reporting the news, but others (larger ones I presume) are respecting the superinjunction and blocking Australian IPs

Dicknose

December 12th, 2018, 04:20 PM

Well, once he's been found guilty the gag order should be lifted, right?

He has been found guilty, but there is a second trial to come and without the suppression order it could be difficult to find jurors who havent heard of the first case and its result (which would possibly make them biased)
Its not something they do often and its not perfect - media outside the country can report it, google will return news articles about it. But local media cant (although one papers top story is "why there is a story we cant report on" - without saying enough to identify it, they only report which state it is in)

There are other times where they cant report, this is often involving victims under 16, so that the victim cant be identified. In some cases that means not identifying the criminal if they are a family member.

Dicknose

December 12th, 2018, 04:21 PM

I have noticed that a few media sites are reporting that Pell has been dropped by the Pope!
They cant say why, but it is something that they are allowed to report on.

G'day Mate

December 12th, 2018, 04:52 PM

Time to remember this little ditty I think ...

In news from the trial of Cardinal George Pell ... there is none. I'm guessing the the super-injunction sought by prosecutors was successful, meaning that the media cannot even report on the existence of the trial until it is over.

Unfamiliar? Let Tim Minchin give you some context:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtHOmforqxk

Tom Servo

December 13th, 2018, 12:31 PM

More on the Pell thing and the gag-order: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/a-top-cardinals-sex-abuse-conviction-is-huge-news-in-australia-but-the-media-cant-report-it-there/2018/12/12/49c0eb68-fe27-11e8-83c0-b06139e540e5_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d5253842b973

Crazed_Insanity

December 13th, 2018, 03:31 PM

This is so very interesting to me... because I’m not really sure I’m for or against such media blackouts because of a trial...

I guess news will eventually resurface, right? So I suppose what Australia is doing is okay...

Dicknose

December 13th, 2018, 06:55 PM

Definitely a limited time suppression - its not meant to hide the decision permanently, just till the next trial happens.
The other option is to just screen hundreds of jurors till you find some that havent heard about the first trial - this is just meant to make that process much easier. A minimises the chances of having to abort the trial because he couldnt get a fair hearing.
Its definitely NOT to protect Pell, its to protect the chance to get him guilty on a second charge.

Tom Servo

December 13th, 2018, 08:09 PM

Yeah, I definitely understand the impetus. We have the problem here where a lot of times juries are limited to people who basically pay no attention to the world around them - if you look at the news at all, you're not qualified for a jury.

I'm not entirely sure that attempting to keep the public in the dark (especially given how incredibly hard that is to do now that we can transmit news halfway around the world in seconds) is better, but I definitely understand the idea.

Dicknose

December 14th, 2018, 09:31 PM

Interesting to see a number of news stories on him - he went into hospital for a knee problem - that was a major headline story with a followup on how he has been axed from the Pope's inner team (although mentioning that this was after 5 years and almost expected)
They want him in the spot light but cant say the real reason!
Everyone who knows (probably most of the country) can yell at their tv! The others live in bliss and hopefully there are enough for him to get a second trial.

This might also be the catalyst to end this silly farce.

Crazed_Insanity

December 15th, 2018, 07:44 AM

I wonder if we could setup exchange programs so that we could send high profile cases to other nations with comparable legal systems... surely more Americans will be less aware of your cardinal and you guys would be less aware of our OJ Simpson...

Wonder if that might be easier than media blackouts.

If the verdict turned out to be unfavorable to popular opinion, you could just blame that on the other nations stupidity and avoid a riot and stuff like that...

Dicknose

December 15th, 2018, 06:48 PM

I cant see that happening!
It is meant to be trial by peers, not people from another country.

December 16th, 2018, 09:24 AM

Anybody celebrating Saturnalia?

Dicknose

December 16th, 2018, 01:52 PM

No - but I do get excited about the solstice!

Tom Servo

December 16th, 2018, 04:01 PM

My mind is 100% on Uranus.

Crazed_Insanity

December 17th, 2018, 07:41 AM

Romans decided to abandon Saturnalia and go with Xmas, so there must be a good reason! ;)

speedpimp

December 19th, 2018, 08:02 AM

It meant they didn't have to buy rings to celebrate it.

G'day Mate

March 12th, 2019, 04:00 PM

George Pell is currently being sentenced on live tv. Not sure if it’s available outside of Australia, but https://iview.abc.net.au/show/abc-news-24

G'day Mate

March 12th, 2019, 04:13 PM

6 years, 3 years 8 months non-parole

His age and the way things were at the times the crimes were committed obviously were big factors in what seems like a light sentence

Crazed_Insanity

March 12th, 2019, 05:16 PM

Whoever committed sins against little ones should be sent to Jesus immediately so that he can deliver the fairest judgement...

Dicknose

March 12th, 2019, 05:45 PM

I dont think the length of the sentance is critical - as you said considering his age its a big sentence. I presume he will be a model prisoner and get earliest parole.
Its mostly about him being found guilty and the fallout that will cause for the system.

If the sentence had been very small (say <1 year) then there probably would be a big outcry. Might still be some, but I think it seems reasonable.

And of cause, there is a still an appeal to be heard.

Dicknose

March 12th, 2019, 05:46 PM

Whoever committed sins against little ones should be sent to Jesus immediately so that he can deliver the fairest judgement...
Luckily we dont have that here...

If you really believe in a heaven and hell, then it shouldnt matter if they wait a bit, eternity is a long time.

Rare White Ape

March 12th, 2019, 10:09 PM

I prefer to see our convicted paedophiles handed over to the State to see only an hour of sunlight a day for the rest of their days, eating prison food, and breathing stale gaol cell air.

If he gets out on parole Pell will likely have to live in Australia and wear an ankle bracelet. And maybe even knock on the doors of all his new neighbours and inform them that he’s a convicted sex offender as required by his parole. That’ll really shake up the good citizens in the very affluent suburb of Toorak.

speedpimp

March 13th, 2019, 09:14 AM

"I am De Jesus!"

MR2 Fan

April 15th, 2019, 06:52 PM

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/apmV5eB_460swp.webp

Crazed_Insanity

June 20th, 2019, 09:43 AM

Okay, nothing religious for too long, so need to post something here... ;)

Terry Crews is a long time member of the church I currently attend. During father's day weekend, pastor asked him to give his testimony. Ain't no sermons nor anything super natural, just him and his wife crediting their current success, from their humble... or perhaps even messed up beginnings, to Jesus! Anyway, if you have 30 min to kill, I'd highly recommend this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgSvhchk5cc

MR2 Fan

March 11th, 2020, 02:51 PM

So...jumping back into this thread because my fiancee is filipino and like a vast majority of filipinos, a bit religious.

She knows from the start that I am not very religious and that I did go to 6 years of Christian school, and it's been nothing like a point of contention. She goes to a non-denominational church (same as Manny Pacquiao apparently) and I've been a few times...no problem.

However this time, her mom, who is a lovely woman and very happy with me, did give me the "speech" of heaven vs hell, taking Jesus as the saviour, etc. etc. and I just smiled and agreed.

That doesn't bother me as I expected it from the get-go. My girl hasn't said much about it, other than I should read the info she gave me, it's fine.

I just don't want to put a wedge between us if she forces the issue...as my ideas of religion differ from hers and I don't know if she's going to push things.

I've agreed to find a church here in Florida that we can go to, and I can "play along" with it...but I do want to gently explain why I have some issues.

Her mom basically had the "choose Jesus or go to hell" thing which is ironic looking at my post above. Her mom lived in Japan and has friends there....I don't want to push this, but if my girl asks why I'm not as religious, one thing I can bring up is, since we've been to Japan:

"Christianity is known in Japan, but 97% of Japanese people aren't Christian...so if they're aware of it, but still don't pledge themselves to Jesus or Christianity, does that mean they will burn in hell for all eternity, even if they are a good person?"

Tom Servo

March 11th, 2020, 03:10 PM

That'd be tough. I was politely asked by my wife to just refer to myself as "agnostic" when going through the process of becoming godparents to her cousin's daughter - I don't mind doing it but I did find it vaguely amusing that they were okay with an agnostic going through the whole catholic ritual of becoming a godparent but wouldn't be okay with an atheist, but if I was expected to start going to church, I think that'd bug me. Not that the church itself would bug, but that's valuable videogame time that that'd be taking up.

I wish I've had better luck with that type of argument (maybe not the right term, but you know what I mean). I've rarely found that to much make of a dent if someone is hell-bent enough already.

IMOA

March 11th, 2020, 04:39 PM

Cam

March 11th, 2020, 05:33 PM

My preferred term is secular.

Crazed_Insanity

March 11th, 2020, 05:50 PM

This first brings us back to the System!

Politics, religious and sex topics can often kill romance. No getting around that. If you know what you like and what you don’t like, stick to your gun! Don’t compromise. I do agree with IMOAs advice on that. Because Otherwise you’ll regret it later. If you don’t want to paint your house pink, have the spine to tell her no! If you really don’t mind, then of course help her paint it pink! ;)

Now, on to the topic of Christianity... as you guys probably have found out that I go out of my way to be non-mainstream! ;) I find it hard to believe 95% of the Japanese will have ‘eternal life’ living and suffering in hell.

Think of Jesus as a pill that’ll give you eternal life, without eating it, you’ll simple perish forever.

If modern science invented such immortal life pill, do you really have a good reason to reject it and insist on dying? Maybe if you’re depressed and suicidal? But even those won’t be good reasons, right?

Lastly, my faith in Jesus isn’t really about my immortal future after life, sure, that’s nice, but there’s also the here and now too! Jesus is teaching humanity how to live their lives to the full in the here and now too. Particularly how we ought to love one another.

So whatever your problem is with Christianity, whether it’s the free eternal life that you find offensive, or Jesus’s teaching you find offensive, or organized religion part that’s offensive... level it with her. Don’t compromise with things you find offensive.

God bless! ;)

Tom Servo

March 11th, 2020, 08:45 PM

Think of Jesus as a pill that’ll give you eternal life, without eating it, you’ll simple perish forever.

If modern science invented such immortal life pill, do you really have a good reason to reject it and insist on dying? Maybe if you’re depressed and suicidal? But even those won’t be good reasons, right?

Enjoy the Wikihole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

Crazed_Insanity

March 11th, 2020, 09:31 PM

Pascal’s wager really makes a lot of sense! It’s main criticism is that it doesn’t really prove Gods existence, but according to scripture, God is love. How do we prove love?

What does MR2 have to do to prove he loves his fiancé and vice versa? Faith, hope and love are just very difficult to prove... so often times we just have to take somebody’s word for it... only time will tell if they’re for real or not.

Does Jesus the Son of God exists?

I can’t prove it, but I don’t believe Jesus has led the western civilizations down the wrong path for the past 2000 yrs compared nations of other major religions.

Secularism is something relatively new to human history. Now it remains to be seen whether if the western nations could continue to thrive after abandoning Jesus.

MR2 Fan

March 13th, 2020, 06:56 AM

Things will be fine, I just wanted to relay my situation and get feedback.

Crazed_Insanity

March 13th, 2020, 12:00 PM

Hope our feedbacks are helpful? May LOVE* be with you and your fiancee and her mom and whatever other nosy family members...

*Remember, God is love! ;)

Dicknose

March 13th, 2020, 01:19 PM

So whatever your problem is with Christianity, whether it’s the free eternal life that you find offensive, or Jesus’s teaching you find offensive, or organized religion part that’s offensive...

I think its the "does sound even remotely believable".
Its not a matter of it being good, the morals are generally good even if most christians ignore them and/or pick and choose the bits they want to follow. Its that the whole thing comes across as fiction and no more believable than any other supernatural religion.

I cant pretend to follow something that I dont just to please others. Especially if its that important to them that they would be upset with someone faking.
If they can only deal with other believers, then fine - see you later.

Crazed_Insanity

March 13th, 2020, 01:55 PM

I think its the "does sound even remotely believable".
Its that the whole thing comes across as fiction and no more believable than any other supernatural religion.

I can understand and even agree with all of your other statements, but the statement I quoted above is simply not true.

Like I was saying, things like faith, hope and love are just difficult to prove or measure scientifically. You pretty much have to take somebody's 'word' for it. Bible is God's Word.

You'll then have to choose whether to 'believe' or not. If you do choose to believe, time will be needed to test out whether if that person's word is true.

If that person divorces you for somebody else, then it's obvious such person's word is BS. You believed in vain. Of course even if you do end up with a longterm relationship, that doesn't really guarantee that love is truly genuine. Maybe the gold digger is just a great actor/pretender for the entire time! ;)

Anyway, back to Jesus, like I've said long before, compared to all other difficult to believe major world religions... yes, Christians of the western nations had been pretty lousy, no argument there. Actually, even Christians today can be pretty lousy..., but Christianity isn't really about Christians, but about Christ. Believers obviously are lousy that's why they needed a savior... and I don't believe the western nations are relatively ahead of the rest of the world because of those lousy Christians, but I do believe it's because of their amazing Savior.

Anyway, God doesn't want us to pretend that we love him... just as no normal human beings would want us to pretend that we love them. Love requires no reason, but if you truly love somebody, it'll be easy to believe, even with absolutely no reason!

Like I said, I don't believe people like you will receive eternal life suffering in hell. Based on scientific point of view, we'll all simply perish when we die. We can all enjoy our one life to live... and you could possible be way more righteous than most Christians. You don't have to be resurrected with eternal life if you really don't want to. Jesus is not as annoying as other Christians who'd insisting on shoving eternal life down your throat. Jesus loves us all no matter what. He is pro-eternal life..., but he is also pro-choice. True love won't force other people to love them back. True love cannot be forced upon others...

If humanity can go on their secular ways without Christianity, surely that'd be proof enough that Christianity is BS.

I really think that remains to be seen though... Take China and Japan for example... they've copied the western culture pretty much every step of the way, other than Jesus Christ himself, and they have been quite successful at it too. But how far can they really go without Jesus? I think the verdict is still out...

Frankly I don't believe non-christian nations will be able to influence the world for too long... the most influential folks on earth will continue to be Israelites... People can try to kill them or destroy their nation... but for whatever reasons they just keep on coming back and remain the focus of world... and the same God of Abraham pretty much have a monopoly on world religions! Yeah, I really found that unbelievable.... which was why I end up believing! ;)

Dicknose

March 13th, 2020, 02:42 PM

Frankly I don't believe non-christian nations will be able to influence the world for too long... the most influential folks on earth will continue to be Israelites...

Israel is far from the most influential. They might survive... but so have plenty of other cultures.

Then again, according to Christianity, they are not going to heaven since they dont accept Jesus. So sucks to be them.
Or they are going to heaven and the Christians are not since they worship a false prophet.
Only one of the two groups can be correct according to their logic.

While you think Christianity is more believable - most of the world does not!
The fraction that believe is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3. Thus a clear majority do not agree that it is believable.
And in most western nations this percentage is dropping.

And Im not even sure what a "christian nation" is... maybe the USA is one. But many western nations that were historically dominated by Christianity are becoming more secular and diverse in other religions.
Hmm I struggle to think of any country that would call itself a christian country - compared to say Muslim countries of which there are a few.
There are countries like the UK that have an official religion - but having the head of state also head of the official religion doesnt stop the country from being run as if its secular.

Crazed_Insanity

March 13th, 2020, 03:28 PM

According to which 'Christianity'? ;) There are Catholics, there are Westboro Baptists..., there are freaks like me... ;) There's no way to prove who's right, only time will tell. To me, if majority of a nation's population is Christian, then it'd a Christian nation. If a western nation ended up mostly with secularists, then of course it's no longer a Christian nation. Will such nations continue to progress and thrive? If yes, then they will be able to 'prove' that humanity doesn't need any saviors. We can easily save ourselves without any outside interventions.

Now, I think it's obvious that Judiasm, Christianity and Islam are all related... at least if we just look at God of Abraham. God of Abraham has obviously won over most of the world's believers. However, have all believers made the right choices? Even within Christianity, which church should we join? Catholic? Westboro Baptists? Well, it's all up to us. If you don't want to join any of them, that's should be fine too. But if you're going to choose be believe, we still have to choose carefully.

Regarding Israelites, I guess you're right that Jews are not the most influential, I meant to say they grab more than their fair share of world's attention for some odd reason. I do believe they're not doing so well now because they rejected Jesus... that's why God has chosen to move His glory westward to make them more jealous. I've heard theories that Gospel is simply moving westwards... and currently it's peaking in the US for now..., but then it'll keep moving to maybe China... and since the Chinese have better relationships with the Arabs... perhaps the Chinese will eventually spread the gosple to the middle east... and then finally back to Israel... and then maybe game over Jesus can return. ;)

Anyway, faith should be personal. There's no point of having a public official religion. You're right, if the people just don't want to believe, then it's pointless to declare an official religion. God is seeking genuine believers. Not believers who are forced into it... or perhaps pretending to believe for certain gains... like Trump?

My 'theory' is that if a group of folks freely choose to believe and follow Jesus, then it'll be hard to stop them. If an entire nation does that, then for sure they'll be an unbeatable superpower... now their achievements wouldn't be caused by those people being so awesome, it'd be because Jesus is awesome! :D

Just looking back a human history, have you ever seen a group of folks who faithfully followed Jesus and still end up accomplished nothing or set themselves back?

Well, maybe there were some... just that we've never heard of those sorry bunch of believers? ;)

But all I'm saying is that at least looking at known human history, I do believe Christianity has been a net positive for humanity... at least more positive that other major religions. Now, secularism is something I don't have sufficient past data to make appropriate comparisons yet... I'll need few hundred years at least.

Given insufficient data, I shall wager like Pascal...

Do you see something promising that you'd bet on secularism rather than Christianity? What do you see that perhaps I missed?

BTW, I think another way to test God would be for us to make 1st contact with another alien species like us. God must have created them too or not, right? ;)

Crazed_Insanity

March 26th, 2020, 01:17 PM

I think recent events has at least confused me quite a bit. Starting from Brexit, to the rise of Trump... from building walls, to complete shutdown of borders! When was the last time this kind of confusion happened in biblical history?

Tower of Babel time: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen+11&version=NIV

Yeah, of course we're not really building any towers now, but rise of secularism and globalism is somewhat similar. Humanity coming together believing we can do anything if we put our minds to it. Such unity isn't really bad, but the major problem is our pride... or our inflated ego making us to want to play God. Just as in the Garden of Eden... I don't believe God is fundamentally against knowledge and wants Adam and Eve to remain dumb asses for all eternity, but God is just against Adam and Eve's method of wanting to gain knowledge behind God's back... desire to be like God, without God. That's the danger that humanity can pose to this universe... or perhaps even other multiverses if left unchecked! If we are indeed a species who know what we're doing, there'd wouldn't be this crisis... or global warming or whatever financial crisis or inequalities or wars, right? Bottomline is that humanity needs help, but too egotistical to admit that we need help.

Anyway, so we now have this virus. Where did it come from? Who's fault is it? Yeah, I like to blame it on CCP, but ultimately the buck stops with God. As the Creator of all thing, surely He created this virus. He is the one destroying our tower of Babel. He is the one confusing us. He is the one separating us...

So Genesis chapter 11 started with the story of Tower of Babel, but it ends with His call to Abram. The father of faith... the only dude in the world dumb enough to believe and follow God.

I'm not saying God is going to call and rise up another Abramham in modern history, but I do believe this is a time created to test people's faith. Are you going to be like Abram or are you going to be like...

Romans 8:28 New International Version (NIV)
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

All things means both good and bad things..., including the coronavirus...

This coronavirus is clearly anti-love. It wants to keep us apart, shut everything down. Will it win? Or will Love conquer all?

I do believe God is love... and He is in control. Have faith, hope and most important of all, love, especially during times like these...

Dicknose

March 27th, 2020, 02:03 PM

This crisis seems to be against your theory that Christian countries are blessed by god.
Seems the hardest hit are amongst the most christian - Italy, Spain, USA

Maybe this is the sign you have been looking for

Crazed_Insanity

March 27th, 2020, 02:24 PM

Only believers of the prosperity doctrine believe that God is all blessing all the time... if you believe in God, you'll be rich and troublefree...

Yes, God wants us to live our lives to the full, but that doesn't mean our lives won't experience trials and tribulations... See Job... and see His own Son Jesus.

We have to look it at from an eternal perspective..., but of course since we're mortals, we can only try to look at it longterm... For Job, in the end, he was blessed twice more... even for the kids that he lost, he gained double!

Similarly during Christ's crucifixion, people at the time could easily laugh and mock him on the cross... you the Son of God? You can't even save yourself!

But look at the world now. He has reset world's calendars and erased pagan holidays as his own...

Back to Abraham... who would've thought a goat herder back then would become the father of faith for Jews, Christians and Muslims... and his God clearly dominated the world religion stage.

Anyway, God can discipline His children too. Unbelieving Jews were left to die out in the wilderness and prevented from entering the promiseland. Israel as a nation has been destroyed multiple times too for its sins and unbelief. However, due to promises made to Abraham, Israel has always been resurrected again and again...

Will Italy, Spain, USA survive this or last a long long time? I can't say.

However, I'm pretty sure Christianity will continue on... unless Christ is bogus.

This coronavirus show hasn't even ended yet, why are you so eager to draw conclusions right now?

Our faith will be tested. Job and Jesus could've just cursed God and die and that'd be the end of them. However, as long as we maintain faith, hope and love... the story will sure to continue.

Lastly, do you think Christianity is on the rise or secularism is on the rise lately? Even in Spain, Italy and USA?

Religion aside, I'd still rather be in USA than in China during this outbreak. Trump is certainly a damn fool, but don't tell me you really admire China and would want to live there because they know what they're doing?

Dicknose

March 30th, 2020, 08:25 PM

Only believers of the prosperity doctrine believe that God is all blessing all the time... if you believe in God, you'll be rich and troublefree...

Religion aside, I'd still rather be in USA than in China during this outbreak. Trump is certainly a damn fool, but don't tell me you really admire China and would want to live there because they know what they're doing?

So you are just ignoring your theory that evidence in favour of Christianity is its success - when they are doing poorly its just testing people.

The USA will end up with a higher death count and certainly a higher percentage of population.
Id rather be in neither!
Australia has less infections and death and much better financial safety net.
But none of that is related to religion.

Crazed_Insanity

March 30th, 2020, 08:48 PM

Yeah, Swiss remained neutral in WWII so they suffered minimal casualties. However, don't forget you can still see a cross on their flag.

Also, don't forget there's a cross on Australian flag as well! :p

Anyway, the key is whether if one could pass the test and reach the next level.

If it's better to not take any tests and be just as well off, then of course let's avoid these stupid tests.

However, regardless of religions, I think it should be clear even to scientists that no pain will usually result in no gains. Even Jesus Christ had to go thru several tests. I hope you can see Christianity has continued to reach higher levels over the past 2000 years... from the humble beginning on the cross.

Crazed_Insanity

April 11th, 2020, 04:55 PM

In Christ, all things are possible!

Yes, only in Christ can I pray with this man and say amen...

https://youtu.be/pk1uBvXBnCg

Without Christ, there’s no way in hell...

Crazed_Insanity

June 7th, 2020, 09:54 AM

Fox "News" propaganda machine in full force

https://twitter.com/LCRWnews/status/1269098948972523520

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZy-w_HUcAAqqL3?format=jpg&name=900x900

Didn’t want to respond to this in the politics thread so bringing it here...

It is kinda disappointing to see people on the right thinking like crusaders... as if God is relying on them to defend Him... as if without them, God could actually be dethroned?!?!? How little faith do they have?

These folks also often make the mistake of assuming God is always on their side but failed to examine whether if they are actually walking on God’s side... Are you walking humbly with God or are you assuming God is following you?

Anyway, my point is God doesn’t need our defense. Just look at Jesus. People could’ve worshipped and faithfully followed him and God would be glorified... or people could brutally kick Jesus’ ass and crucify him and God will still be glorified!

So IMHO, the Jesus most conservative right believe is probably a false idol that requires their defense. The one true God, in theory, should be undethroneable! ;) I wish the conservative Christians could have bigger faith...

Tom Servo

June 7th, 2020, 10:51 AM

It really feels like there should be a South Park style

???

before that last one there. Also, I believe that God doesn't have a throne, he does that thing that hip teachers do where he turns the chair around backwards before 'rappin'' with people.

Crazed_Insanity

June 7th, 2020, 11:53 AM

Throne is simply symbolizing the whoever's in charge.

On the flip side, God often could give up this throne and let you be in charge for as long as you want... if you can do better, He'll gladly let you play God... whether if it's about controlling your own life... or your family or your city or your nation...

In the end, God would like to see people humbly and gladly beg Him to sit on the throne because sooner or later, people will realize there's none like Him. God really has all the time in the universe to wait for people to realize that reality. :p

Anyway, I was mostly just focusing on that last bullet point. As for those other points, I think those are the same points commonly being used against protests, right?

At HK, the points could be flipped just as easily...
* to destroy communism
* weapon of choice: police state's oppression of minorities in China from Tibet to HK
* identifying victims being robbed of their freedom
* organize the victim to fight for freedom
* engage global solidarity to free HK
* The West is trying to dethrone the CCP and shove Jesus and freedom down our throats!

Anyway, it's pretty much the same play book. I have to say CCP has learned from America well. They pretty much copy everything America does... even capitalism.

I only wish they would copy Jesus into Chinese culture... but just like they'd create their own versions of google, facebook, amazon... they'll probably create their own version of chinese communist Jesus. Something that they can have firm control over.

Yw-slayer

June 7th, 2020, 03:28 PM

So you are just ignoring your theory that evidence in favour of Christianity is its success - when they are doing poorly its just testing people

Of course. Everything is manipulated to somehow become proof of the existence of "Their God" and how he prevails over all others or whatever crap they want to spew to show the superiority of their belief. It's pointless having ontological arguments with people like this.

Crazed_Insanity

June 7th, 2020, 04:42 PM

That is actually true.

When I was a younger Christian, I obviously also made the same mistake of trying to verbally defend Jesus from attackers. Now I know those arguments were indeed pointless and waste of time. Jesus doesn’t really need me to defend him.

Dicknose

June 8th, 2020, 06:17 PM

I think they mean "dethrone" as in remove Christian influence from politics ie remove their power.
Which I think would be a good thing.
Not saying Christians shouldnt be involved in politics, but that their religious beliefs should be for them and fellow believers, not pushed on others.

Bigger picture, since I believe god is created by man, he would cease to exist as such if all christians stopped believing.

Crazed_Insanity

June 8th, 2020, 09:20 PM

America’s founding fathers dethroned God from its politics from the get go! They also split the throne 3 ways, the executive throne, legislative throne, and the judge throne! Founders anticipated power hungry assholes might ascend to those thrones so they even gave citizens the right to have violent protests using their arms if necessary...

America only had large Christian influences because most believers are Christian. When most Americans abandoned and crucify Christ like the Jews did, will that finally end God? Maybe..., but maybe not? :p

Dicknose

June 11th, 2020, 05:20 PM

America’s founding fathers dethroned God from its politics from the get go!

And yet it seems more important than ever in US politics!

Would many Christians vote for someone who is not christian?

Yw-slayer

June 11th, 2020, 06:59 PM

Would many Christians vote for someone who is not christian?

lol

Crazed_Insanity

June 11th, 2020, 09:22 PM

Would many atheists vote for Christians?

Would many republicans vote for democrats?

Would many democrats vote republican?

Would America vote for many black presidents?

Many? Most likely not, but never say never.

This is how democracy works. Many people vote for their like minded candidates.

Does not mean US constitution requires Jesus to sit on the throne.

USA is only a Christian nation if majority of Americans are Christian. If most Americans decided to quit Jesus, then USA can not be considered a Christian nation anymore.

Tom Servo

June 12th, 2020, 07:16 AM

And yet it seems more important than ever in US politics!

Would many Christians vote for someone who is not christian?

According to a Gallup poll from last year (https://news.gallup.com/poll/254120/less-half-vote-socialist-president.aspx), 40% of voters wouldn't vote for an atheist and 34% wouldn't vote for a Muslim

Crazed_Insanity

June 12th, 2020, 09:43 AM

That poll data sure is interesting...

Every single category improved from 2015 to 2019 except... socialists! Socialists are more hated than atheists!

More than 50% won’t vote for them! No wonder Bernie lost...

Bernie should’ve been a black gay Catholic to improve his chances... :p

Actually yeah, Catholics have higher favorability than evangelicals is kinda surprising to me...

Another notable result is that being black matters a lot on this poll, the most favorable thing both in 2015 and 2019, but it sure doesn’t reflect reality.

Are voters pretending to be not racist? Or institutions don’t even allow us the options to vote for black candidates? Or probably a bit of both?

Take this year’s dem primary for example... there weren’t any overt oppression on Kamala or Booker, they all seemed to just fade away on their own, but for sure the party would not extend the same privileges Biden had. Likewise for Bloomberg. Debate rule changes for Mike but not for Booker.

Not to mention the mastermind behind that stroke of genius that helped propelled Biden was probably Obama...

Anyway, going way off topic, but again, just want to illustrate the point that many? Nope.

However this Christian right here wanted an atheistic socialist to be president. So never say never! :p

I have faith in Christ, but for humans, we can see people’s deeds to determine whether somebody is Christ-like or not. There no doubt in my mind Bernie is the most Christ-like candidate, and that’s why I endorse him. Yang’s words sounds very Christ-like as well, but with his younger age and not much political experience, need to observe him more to be sure...

Dicknose

June 12th, 2020, 07:54 PM

Would many atheists vote for Christians?

This is how democracy works. Many people vote for their like minded candidates.

USA is only a Christian nation if majority of Americans are Christian. If most Americans decided to quit Jesus, then USA can not be considered a Christian nation anymore.
Would atheists vote for christian?
In the US they pretty much have to. I dont think there has been a serious candidate (ie major party) who hasnt been christian.

But voting based on their religion and not their political views?

And since when does a nation have a religion - unless its written into the law (like some Muslim countries and previously many European countries). A majority of people having a religion doesnt make the country have a religion, does it?
Is the US a white nation because more than 50% of the population is white?

Dicknose

June 12th, 2020, 08:03 PM

Socialists are more hated than atheists!

But socialism is a political view.
Religion is not.

But in the USA its so tied up that a candidate has no chance unless they promote they are christian (even if its pretending... like someone the other day)
You have to say "God bless America" or you wont win. Going off that poll you would lose badly no matter what your political policy was.

In Australia we dont care so much. Heck I dont know the religion of most of our politicians. Our current PM is christian and very high profile about it. But the few before that - wouldnt know. Also no idea of my local member (we dont vote for PM, just your local representative).

Crazed_Insanity

June 12th, 2020, 09:34 PM

Politicians pay lip service to win votes, whether it’s pretending or genuinely loving black lives, gays or Jesus...

All I can say is I don’t look at politicians’ faiths, I prefer to look at their records.

Lastly, everyone knows US was started by white Christians, no need to deny that fact. What will America become or how will it end up? That’s up to all of the Americans... not up to Jesus on his throne. Now this isn’t because Jesus has no power, it’s just that he gave us the right to choose how we want to live or die.

Tom Servo

June 13th, 2020, 10:14 AM

I somehow missed that. This atheist has voted for a Christian for president every single time.

Crazed_Insanity

June 13th, 2020, 10:33 AM

So I guess it makes sense that this Christian is trying hard to put an atheist into the WH for the past 2 elections. Actually, was just trying to help that atheist to win the freaking primary!!!

I guess it just wasn’t God’s will for him to win... like I said, he should’ve been black, catholic, and gay! :p

Dicknose

June 13th, 2020, 01:25 PM

Googling I found that we have had several atheist Prime Ministers going back as far as the 1970s.
Still have some christians who wouldnt vote for an atheist, but seems to be less than the US. As well as having less christians.

Crazed_Insanity

June 13th, 2020, 04:01 PM

Anyway, both US and Australia were started by white Christians and these nations can only be as white or as Christian as their numbers overall... things can definitely change over time.

Also, Jesus doesn’t directly control these nations on his throne... nor do politicians/authorities really force voters to practice Christianity.

True Christianity can only be practiced from inside out(from the heart transformation), bottom up(transformation from the people of lower class...)

Tom Servo

June 13th, 2020, 04:44 PM

True Christianity can only be practiced from inside out..., bottom up

Giggity

Crazed_Insanity

June 13th, 2020, 04:53 PM

You know what I mean...

Tom Servo

June 13th, 2020, 04:55 PM

You bet I do. Wink wink, nudge nudge.

Crazed_Insanity

June 13th, 2020, 06:00 PM

Yeah sure you do... :p

Crazed_Insanity

June 15th, 2020, 11:35 AM

One cool thing about more churches going online and having more stay at home time is that I get to explore what other churches are doing...

Found this young pastor's sermon from Flat Iron Church in Colorado particularly moving... talking about Jesus and racism... no policy is going to reduce racism... it can only be changed one heart at a time.

Sermon starts at around 17:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ-K2J6RhYQ

Seeing some of the comments below the video, it's clear that lots of 'white christians' disagreeing with the pastor's message..., but I wonder if God has revealed to them some other better solutions for our racism problems?

Crazed_Insanity

July 12th, 2020, 08:10 AM

https://youtu.be/gTxX_iwlXpo

Although I’m not really catholic, but sure feel bad for the Catholic Church... first it happened in France... now it happened in my neighborhood. The mission was renovating in preparation for its 250th anniversary... and again, the roof burned down...

It survived 249 years and our crazy fireworks celebration, but not another renovation? Of course the cause is still under investigation. Whatever the cause, the fire sucks... :(

Crazed_Insanity

July 28th, 2020, 11:29 AM

https://www.psypost.org/2020/07/new-psychological-research-links-atheism-to-emotional-suppression-57490/amp

Atheists tend to suppress emotions, particularly positive ones? Does this ring true to you atheists?

SportWagon

July 28th, 2020, 03:05 PM

I would guess that there are some religious belief systems which suppress some emotions, too...

Dicknose

July 28th, 2020, 03:07 PM

Im probably not the best person to comment as Ive been accused of being an emotionless robot!
That is more about me as a personality than it is about my religious beliefs.

Its possible that religious people have a positive group experience that lets them express positive emotions.
I dont think there is any denying that most religious social groups can be a positive experience, that is one of the strong points of religion. And that atheists dont have the same social system (well generally not as a collective of atheists)

SportWagon

July 28th, 2020, 03:11 PM

There are (or used to be) some basically near-Atheist people who go to church mostly for the social interaction.

My late uncle really enjoyed singing in the church choir. But could do good solos in the pub too. And professed no deep beliefs. (i.e. explicitly a lack of deep beliefs)

Tom Servo

July 28th, 2020, 05:54 PM

I don't think my sample size is good enough on this, as I don't really know a whole lot of atheists personally (or maybe I do, I don't really make it a point to find out people's religious affiliations). I wouldn't say that my family is overall repressed in their emotions, especially compared to many of my friends' descriptions of their families. My father probably is, but I think that's more a Norwegian thing than a religious thing.

Crazed_Insanity

July 28th, 2020, 08:57 PM

I would guess that there are some religious belief systems which suppress some emotions, too...

Yes, Buddhism! In a way, Buddhism is more agnostic than theistic...

Are there any other theistic religions that frown upon emotions?

Crazed_Insanity

July 28th, 2020, 09:15 PM

Anyway, that study itself admit its own limitations, but I thought the findings kinda make sense!

This is why people like DN gravitate toward science more. Science seeks the truth without the need to involve any emotions whatsoever! Unless you study psychology? :p

People’s personality will pretty much steer them toward a particular political or religious affiliation... that’s not to say some could perhaps break out of their molds, but knowing someone’s personality, it makes predicting such affiliations easier.

If you believe rational reasoning trumps emotions, even positive emotions, naturally that’ll make it harder for you to believe in a God. However, I think emotions and reasons don’t have to be mutually exclusive. We need both.

Similarly I believe our world needs both liberals and conservatives in order to be healthy. Even when we drive, we don’t always turn left or turn right...

Tom Servo

July 29th, 2020, 02:43 PM

I think science is a method of trying to discern the truth outside of emotion, that's true. I don't think that believing in science means not being emotional though. Computer Science isn't quite the same as traditional science, but I would say that while the computer doesn't give a shit what my emotions are, I get pretty elated when something I design works and pretty bummed when it doesn't. Also, I don't have any numbers in front of me but it's certain not unheard of for scientists to be religious. Science is trying to get to the bottom of how the universe works, and that's valid whether or not you believe there was a creator of it.

Crazed_Insanity

July 29th, 2020, 03:48 PM

Yes, that's what I meant, science being just a method for digging for truth without the need for emotions, I didn't mean that scientists themselves are incapable of emotions. For sure scientists can be very emotional and there are definitely scientists who believe in God. Science and faith don't have to be mutually exclusive...

However, I think it's safe to say that currently if we were to survey all people who claim to be scientists, athiests or agnostics would be of greater numbers than theists.

Dicknose

July 29th, 2020, 04:57 PM

I don't think my sample size is good enough on this, as I don't really know a whole lot of atheists personally (or maybe I do, I don't really make it a point to find out people's religious affiliations).
Wow - Im definitely the other way round.
I dont know many people who are religious. A few cousins, one or two acquaintances, two guys from work - but I dont think any of my circle of friends is.
My close group at university had a couple - but they all died young (under 30)

Id make a quick guess and say less than 10% of Aussies I know are actively/openly religious. Maybe the same amount agaoin could be, but quiet about it and wouldnt be regular at services.

Tom Servo

July 29th, 2020, 08:37 PM

Interesting. I usually assume people are religious as I knew very few atheists growing up. Our family was the atheist one in the neighborhood. My wife and her family are Catholic - not practicing, but definitely still believe. My brother in law is an atheist (I think), but his family is pretty religious, his sister is a minister. They're thankfully one of the not-so-judgmental variations, but he's also got a couple of family members in Scientology, one of which has disconnected from the rest of the family. That family member's daughter is one of the people who started Ex-Scientology Kids (https://exscientologykids.com/)

Most people I know I would not categorize as active churchgoers, but almost all of them consider themselves as belonging to some religious order. A good example might be two friends of mine from school. One was a Muslim from Pakistan, and she married the other friend who is a Catholic. She converted for the wedding, but she still identifies as Muslim. Neither of them go to services for either, but they definitely aren't atheists.

G'day Mate

October 13th, 2020, 06:42 PM

Today's topic - are our laws "based on judeo-christian values"

According to Billi ...

Look, no matter how much you’d like to deny this, the western civilization has based itself on the laws of Moses, which was summarized by Jesus as love God and love one another.

Of course the ‘love God’ part could end up being twisted by some to cause persecutions so now we mostly just focus on the love one another part and made sure we allow people the freedom to worship freely.

So to answer your question, yes, it is fairly universal as well, but the Christian influence on the west should be pretty clear.

For a Supreme Court judge to deliver a good and fair judgment, he or she should be able to make both Jesus and the people happy. Not to just follow the letter of the law... we all could interpret the same sentences differently anyway... how can we be sure our interpretation of the law is really right?

Best we could do is to hope that whatever we do is out of love for God and for other people. We do this right, our future will be bright, we do this wrong, we enter into the dark ages...

https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_375%2C$height_211/t_crop_fill/q_86%2Cf_auto/3a8e14d4c1fd20d925600ba0b1c6f0255a2d84fa

Crazed_Insanity

October 13th, 2020, 09:16 PM

Forget about Christian influences that caused so many western flags to bear crosses..., here’s something about Jewish influences:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Judaism/The-role-of-Judaism-in-Western-culture-and-civilization

Rikadyn

October 14th, 2020, 02:12 AM

Code of hammurabi probably has a more direct line of influence

G'day Mate

October 14th, 2020, 03:10 AM

The whatnow?

Rikadyn

October 14th, 2020, 03:36 AM

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi

Tl:Dr 1700 bc babylonian King ordered laws codified.

Godson

October 14th, 2020, 07:02 AM

I'm still waiting for a true separation of church and state to be utilized...

Tom Servo

October 14th, 2020, 07:52 AM

I feel like there's a big gap between "based on Judeo-Christian values" and that modern judicial decisions need to make Jesus happy. As it is, many of the Mosaic laws we've already thrown out, and as far as I can tell only two of the ten commandments are actually illegal here. Like Rikadyn pointed out, some of the laws we still follow can be traced back to Hammurabi, so they're not necessarily unique to Judeo-Christian law.

I don't see a problem with the Supreme Court delivering judgment based on the letter of the law rather than an interpretation fed through an arbitrary religious code. If we find that the interpretation of the law doesn't fit with what we think are our values, that's what the legislature is for - change the law.

Finally, I think it's almost dangerous to require this adherence to Judeo-Christian values as part of being a Supreme Court justice (which I may be wrong but it seems like that's the angle Billi's going for). That'd mean that, presumably, atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, or anyone else would be immediately unqualified to be on the Supreme Court. I don't think that's reasonable.

Crazed_Insanity

October 14th, 2020, 08:20 AM

My angle was that if a person cannot act according to their own good faith(whatever that might be), then what's the point? I just thought Judge Amy lacks integrity. 1) Based on her own words previously applied to the Obama admin, she should've withdrawn herself or delay her own nomination. 2) Even if US laws were influenced mostly by the Babylonians, as a Christian, particularly on issues like abortion and gay marriage, what would Jesus do should still be in her mind and deliver her judgements appropriately...

Whatever your faith is, as a judge, your judgements should be both legally and morally sound, right? Unless your faith has nothing to do with morals, than perhaps you could throw your faith out on the job? But that's ridiculous.

BTW, as a Christian, I am pro-life, but I'm also pro-choice. I believe God is both too... hence He planted a tree of life(pro-eternal life) and tree of knowledge of good and evil(pro-choice). If God never intended to give Adam and Eve a choice to leave paradise, He would have never planted the tree of knowledge. I really don't understand how can anti-vaxx and anti-mask conservatives not realize the importance of choice. ;)

As for gay marriage, yes, bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin, heterosexuals having sex outside of marriage is sinful too, but bible is equally clear that love can cover up all sins. If you do something out of love, it can't possibly be sinful. Marriage is possibly the only way we can do legally to prove our love? So I'm all for gay marriage at this point.

For these gray area issues where the laws are unclear or silent, what are judges to do? If you can't bring your own faith to work, what else are you going to rely on? Only judge capable of not bringing their own faiths to work would be atheistic judges. Assuming their upbringings were not contaminated by Judeo-christian-babylonian gods... :p

Tom Servo

October 14th, 2020, 08:59 AM

Only judge capable of not bringing their own faiths to work would be atheistic judges.

This idea reminds me way too much of Trump claiming that Judge Curiel couldn't be an impartial judge in the Trump University lawsuit because of his Mexican heritage. Well, to be fair, I think Trump just called him "a Mexican", but it's not like Trump is known for careful wording.

I'm probably not the best person to judge this (haha) since I'm an atheist, but I don't think it's impossible for someone with a certain faith, or a certain background, or whatever the case may be to do the job impartially.

I do think Judge Barrett lacks integrity, but not because of her faith. I think she lacks integrity because Trump wouldn't pick someone who didn't.

Crazed_Insanity

October 14th, 2020, 09:11 AM

Anyway, think of it this way... Jesus is not an atheist. He believes in God the Father. Could he do his job impartially without thinking about his Father in heaven at all?

If your faith doesn't help strength your integrity, then what's faith good for? Might as well just be an atheist. Should we christians be like Christ in private and be like an atheist in public office? Anyway, my judgement of her is based on her own words and deeds... has nothing to do with Trump. :p

Tom Servo

October 14th, 2020, 09:14 AM

Should we christians be like Christ in private and be like an atheist in public office?

Well, you can be like Christ in public too, but yes, I think you should be like an atheist in public office. For example, I don't think Kim Davis should have been refusing to grant marriage licenses to same sex couples based on her faith.

Crazed_Insanity

October 14th, 2020, 09:41 AM

IMHO, to deny marriage license isn't that christ-like.

As a Christian, I have nothing against gay marriage. Even if I do believe that is against my faith, I don't understand why Kim Davis alone could block somebody from getting married. Perhaps the entire office are Christians like her and nobody wants to sign and she's the only one who didn't mind the publicity so she took the fall for being a bigot or to stand up against the gays?

Anyway, assuming I'm also against gay marriage by faith like Kim and has her job, but if there is a specific law allowing gay marriage, bible teaches that we have to obey also our earthly authorities. We cannot sign up for a job and then claim that we can't perform this job because God forbids it. If you truly believe your job is ungodly, quit. It's that simple.

Our argument earlier was about what a supreme court justice is suppose to do when we get into gray areas... if a particular law is pretty clear, there's no need to use our faith to twist existing laws into something else. I'm not asking Judge Amy to do that. In fact, she is claiming that she won't be at all like Kim Davis..., but I just don't believe her... plus, her job is nothing like Kim Davis' job.

Anyway, a lot of these cases are people just trying to pick a fight IMHO. Same with the gay wedding cake case. If someone doesn't want to sell you a cake, buy from someone else. Is that really the only baker in town? Is buying from another baker who'd be happy to sell you a cake that difficult these days?

We can encounter people that hate us for seemingly no apparent reasons as well. Do we really need to take all of them to court? To the supreme court?!?!?

Which ever side of the issue you're on, if you know Jesus and what he would do, these are really non-issues... not worth fighting for.

Only thing Jesus would fight for is if someone disrespects his Dad and he'd also fight hard for our salvations.

2ndMoparMan

October 14th, 2020, 10:21 AM

Hmmm...should I link some AronRa videos here?

Crazed_Insanity

October 14th, 2020, 10:28 AM

Why not? :p

Rikadyn

October 14th, 2020, 11:20 AM

Should we christians be like Christ in private and be like an atheist in public office?

Matthew 6:3-7 (I think)

Crazed_Insanity

October 14th, 2020, 11:35 AM

That is for Christians more interested in doing PR than doing actual good deeds. Plus, that verse isn’t commanding us to not do good in public, just saying if you’ve received the recognition on earth, god won’t bother to recognize you again in heaven.

Anyway, my point was that a person with integrity would do the same thing under either Obama or trump, both in public and in private.

Dicknose

October 14th, 2020, 11:50 AM

My angle was that if a person cannot act according to their own good faith(whatever that might be), then what's the point?

Should you also recognise that your faith is yours - and not try to force it on everyone.

As for gay marriage, yes, bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin, heterosexuals having sex outside of marriage is sinful too

And this is exactly where I think religion and laws shouldnt mix.
If this is your religious practice then it should only apply to people of the same religion.
If my religion says "dont eat pork, its a sin" should I stop everyone from eating pork??

For these gray area issues where the laws are unclear or silent, what are judges to do? If you can't bring your own faith to work, what else are you going to rely on? Only judge capable of not bringing their own faiths to work would be atheistic judges. Assuming their upbringings were not contaminated by Judeo-christian-babylonian gods... :p
They should follow the Golden Rule - if they wouldnt wont a Muslim or Satanist enforcing their religion as law, they shouldnt do the same to others!!

If you cant argue for a reason why a law/ruling should apply without an appeal to God or sin - then it shouldnt happen. If you best or only reason is "my religion says so", then it should only apply to your religion.

And you dont need to be an atheist to act like this. Just a decent person who can respect that not everyone has the same faith.

Tom Servo

October 14th, 2020, 12:11 PM

IMHO, to deny marriage license isn't that christ-like.

I think that's the crux of the problem right there. You both are Christian but you both interpret your faith very differently. I also don't know how strongly you weigh that faith vs. the job - if same sex marriage wasn't legal, would you still issue them in an attempt to be Christ-like, or would you follow the law?

I vastly prefer justices to base their decisions on the law as its written and precedent, and realize that that will often lead to decisions that I'm not a fan of because many laws are poorly written or I just don't agree with them in the first place. But that's what the legislature's for - that's where I think you can and likely should let your own personal feelings and moral compass guide how you vote on creating, changing, and abolishing laws.