Politics

[sandydandy]

You don’t have to be polite to dead people. True true. I typically refrain from immediately talking shit about people who have just recently died. But it’s been a few days now so fuck him. He was a horrible hate monger and the world is a better place without him. Unfortunately his legion of followers aren’t going anywhere and will continue to spread his filth. Just glad that Trump isn’t president anymore or he’d make a national day of mourning for that piece of shit.

[George]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsF1LhhyyVg&ab_channel=NYG2012

[neanderthal]

Please be mindful, while roasting Fled Cruz, that this story should not over shadow the fact that he is a traitorous treason weasel, and must be expelled from the senate if he doesn't resign.

Also if he lied about the reasons for the trip to Cabo, did he lie about the stolen election too? All the more fodder to hang him with.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh com’on, give the guy a break! He only left home and crossed the border in order to give his children a better life! Was that really so unforgivable? :p

Hope Texans can wise up a bit. Considering Beto stuck around... and even AOC who is in another state helped raised $2M to help, what is Ted good for?

Hope Texans won’t end up believing that their disaster was caused by the ‘green new deal’...

[neanderthal]

AOC raised $3 million. And counting.

[Rare White Ape]

The thing with the GND is that it hasn't been put into place. It currently sits as a way to lobby governments to introduce policies that combat climate change.

It won't stop people blaming it for governmental failure to provide for its citizens though.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I’m hopeful most Texans know that green new deal is not in place yet. Anyway, thanks to Ted Cruz screwing himself over. Even if some are too stupid to realize that, they’ll probably be too angry at Cruz to care about GND...

Texas, just like California, have only themselves to blame with the rolling blackouts. California used to be able to blame Enron, but not anymore. All thanks to having irresponsible leadership who think of themselves 1st and lobbyists 2nd and constituents last...

[Tom Servo]

The thing with the GND is that it hasn't been put into place. It currently sits as a way to lobby governments to introduce policies that combat climate change.

It won't stop people blaming it for governmental failure to provide for its citizens though.

We get the same thing with the "defund police" thing. I repeatedly heard failures of the local police force blamed on defunding long before the city budget was even voted on, much less enacted.

My faith in democracy is continually eroded every time I hear my neighbors speak.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Back to Jordan Peterson along with the topic of GND... one of the main reason Peterson is against AOC and her green idea is that he believes she doesn’t know what she’s doing. Peterson is not a climate crisis denier, it’s just that complex problems require complex solutions. You don’t attempt to fix your car or your computer when you don’t really know how they work, right? Similarly with our planet. Yes, our planet is in trouble, but are we pretty sure how to fix it? Often times it may be better to just leave things alone than to mess with a complex problem and end up speeding up our demise...

Will eliminating carbon emitting fossil fuels and replace with solar panels in Sahara be better? Yeah, on paper..., but look at this study:

https://www.inverse.com/science/why-turning-the-sahara-into-a-giant-solar-farm-could-damage-the-global-climate

Now hopefully this study wasn’t funded by conservatives?

Scientists really need to reach a consensus before we act. If scientists cannot agree, then I think their findings are probably not scientific enough?

And often times liberals are so busy fighting climate deniers that they don’t fully examine what they’re doing will truly make things better. Ideally we just need to collaborate more and fight less I guess.

[Tom Servo]

Part of the main reason that Peterson is against AOC is he believes that because she's a woman she doesn't know what she's doing.

The entire rest of that post relies on the idea that AOC herself is going to specifically design the future of power generation which I'm pretty sure is not the plan. It's a non-binding set of goals to try to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and according to the NY Times: "The resolution itself also steers clear of endorsing or rejecting specific technologies or sources of energy, something that Mr. Markey said was done purposefully to encourage broader support for the plan." Mr. Markey is the other person who introduced the bill with AOC who seems remarkably immune from the criticisms that AOC gets.

Also, the GND is basically taken from the Green Party's platform of the same name: https://www.gp.org/green_new_deal

I guess at least I'm not aware of Peterson going after Jill Stein for it, so maybe he's just got a thing for AOC.

[Crazed_Insanity]

AOC is young. Peterson typically has a problem with young activists trying to save the world.

Liberals tend to love social justice warriors, but I do agree with Peterson that perhaps young folks need to 1st check if his or her own bedroom is cleaned first before telling the rest of the world how to clean up the planet.

Personally I think it’s great to have Greta bring us awareness, but she shouldn’t be the one drafting policy, right?

AOC is already a lawmaker, not just a SJW, perhaps Peterson is just seeing her as a SJW who has prematurely became a law maker?

Anyway, it’s pretty clear that we have a climate crisis, even if we exclude all climate deniers, do we really have scientific consensus on a proper fix? Peterson is just worried that we will only make our climate worse.

[Tom Servo]

That's the point. Neither of them are drafting specific energy policy, and only one of them is drafting any policy at all and the policy is "lessen emissions and address climate change". Peterson (and you) describe them as doing something and then criticize them for it when they never actually did it. It's this fun way to sound erudite and superior while making shit up.

Also, basing it on age, at least when you're talking people in their 30s may well have gone through post-graduate studies in their field, seems dumb. Trump's in his seventies and he's dumber than a bag of hammers.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Also, basing it on age, at least when you're talking people in their 30s may well have gone through post-graduate studies in their field, seems dumb. Trump's in his seventies and he's dumber than a bag of hammers.

Ha, no argument there! :p

I don’t think Peterson is dwelling only on age or gender or any other identity, but qualifications. We need people who are qualified to fix our planet and lead us out of troubles.

Unfortunately our Democratic process doesn’t usually end up selecting qualified people into offices.

Personally I love AOC, same with Bernie, although I don’t always agree with their policies. I do think they’re much better than Trump and the never trump folks from the Lincoln project and even the typical corporate dems.

At least they don’t look like the type who’d take off with their life boats at 1st sign of trouble. Of course we ultimately need captains that won’t steer our ship into icebergs in the 1st place.

I believe those progressive politicians are better, but just not sure if our ship really won’t run into icebergs if someday people like AOC or Bernie attained real power. I hope so. I certainly don’t mind trying something different, but we also need to be prepared that trying something different might end up making things worse...

[Dicknose]

Will eliminating carbon emitting fossil fuels and replace with solar panels in Sahara be better? Yeah, on paper..., but look at this study:

https://www.inverse.com/science/why-turning-the-sahara-into-a-giant-solar-farm-could-damage-the-global-climate

Not sure if too many people are actually suggesting using the Sahara to that level. The "if we..." type posts are more about the amount of energy and showing the scale of the issue rather than serious engineering suggestions.
Get actual scientists and engineers doing it and there will be multiple issues that could affect how its done and the size. Places like deserts usually have big temp diff between night and day, which could lead to temp capture and waste heat harvesting. Most issues have solutions.

Certainly I wouldnt let issues like this stop us from doing nothing (which is effectively what you are suggesting)

[Dicknose]

Personally I think it’s great to have Greta bring us awareness, but she shouldn’t be the one drafting policy, right?

Anyway, it’s pretty clear that we have a climate crisis, even if we exclude all climate deniers, do we really have scientific consensus on a proper fix? Peterson is just worried that we will only make our climate worse.
I dont think anyone suggests Greta makes a law. She is just about awareness.
Then again I think most of our law makers usually have no idea of what they are doing in specialist areas. Look at some of the crazy laws trying to happen about encryption and digital security!

And anyone saying "hey lets not make it worse" sounds like a sensible voice, but Id be pretty sure it really means "hey the status quo suits me".
We arent even close to a consensus is the general population (in most places), its not the time to be throwing more fuel on the fire by saying stuff about a consensus of specific solutions.

[Rare White Ape]

Thunberg is merely lobbying politicians to listen to science, rather than fossil fuel industry lobbyists.

Of course, captain nuance would not have realised this before posting.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I dont think anyone suggests Greta makes a law. She is just about awareness.
Then again I think most of our law makers usually have no idea of what they are doing in specialist areas. Look at some of the crazy laws trying to happen about encryption and digital security!

And anyone saying "hey lets not make it worse" sounds like a sensible voice, but Id be pretty sure it really means "hey the status quo suits me".
We arent even close to a consensus is the general population (in most places), its not the time to be throwing more fuel on the fire by saying stuff about a consensus of specific solutions.

I don’t believe Peterson is saying status quo suits him. At least I don’t believe in status quo. However, these goals of carbon neutrality, are they really based on science or pulled out of somebody’s ass?

We need actual scientific studies that are not politically biased. In this day and age, I wonder if that’s even possible. We most likely won’t reach consensus with general population, but there ought to be consensus amongst qualified scientists with regard to solutions, otherwise it’s not real science... that’s just politics.

It’s like WHO and CDC initially believe we didn’t need masks because of low risk and we need to save them for medical workers... and now Dr Fauci is telling us he believes it’s safe to open up schools even if teachers are not vaccinated and there isn’t even vaccines for kids. Well, excuse me for not believing in that kind of politically corrupted science.

[FaultyMario]

I can't be arsed to look for the diagram on a Sunday, but the green new deal is one of four "proven" strategic paths to avoid turning the planet into a burning garbage bin.

IIRC, the others are de-growth, circularity and heavy pigouvian taxation. All of them have their pros and cons, but politicians love GND because of the promise of job creation and skill shifting.

[FaultyMario]

Here it is:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUb2_M5XgAAopo1.jpg

If you think GND is bad medicine, try to sell the other two policies to wealthy campaign donors.

[Rare White Ape]

I'm all for pigouvian taxation yeah boii.

Also:

Four-day working week
Re-skilling and up-skilling
And lopping the heads off the rich

[Crazed_Insanity]

I personally have a problem with making stupid goals, such as opening schools in 100 days whether if teachers are vaccinated or not.

Likewise strict bans on fossil fuels at a specific point in time.

Why make unrealistic goals? Why can’t we just commit to cut it down by a certain percentage every year? Make it easier to get as many folks to buy in on the plan?

Trump has his stupid art deal... liberals tend to have this my way or the high way deal, Bernie included... I just think people need to get together and strike a more balanced deal that’s all. (And we need to gather as much scientific data that has the consensus of the scientific community without political manipulation)

At this stage, the world is simply incapable of coming up with good solutions without political biases...

Anyway, my point is that I thought Peterson has the most balanced approach to various thing. No he’s not a climate expert, but I think somebody like him would be able to sort thru the political crap and pick out relevant scientific data to formulate a plan around an iceberg... just my 2cents.

[JoshInKC]

As often seems to be the case, I don't think I understand what you're trying to say - So, over the past couple of decades we've determined via a vast scientific consensus that greenhouse gases (including carbon dioxide) are directly contributing to global climate change, which is lookin' to be a not-fun ride in the immediate future. Those aforementioned gases are in part emitted by human-controlled industries and technologies based on fossil fuels, which we've been burning like they're free and infinite for the past ~150 years, and which we can (in part) replace with different (if not as cheap) technologies which don't come with the same pollutant-related drawbacks, but could potentially have other issues.
So rather than attempt to reduce our consumption of those fossil fuels and work on replacing them with those different technologies - you, along with a lot of people who we know are getting paid by the fossil fuel industry (and a psychologist, who is mostly viewed as at best a half-bright asshole) are suggesting (based on no evidence that's been presented) that literally thousands of climate scientists are potentially politically biased, so therefore we should do nothing.
Is this right?

[Tom Servo]

Likewise strict bans on fossil fuels at a specific point in time.

Why make unrealistic goals? Why can’t we just commit to cut it down by a certain percentage every year?

That's literally a goal to ban a certain amount of fossil fuels at a specific point in time.

It might actually be more difficult to reach because it requires reduction immediately and gives less time for investment in new technologies to actually help with that reduction unless you make that a curved percentage target, at which point you might as well just go back to "be down to this amount by this date".

The thing is, the goal is a motivating factor. Those goals often get moved when it's clear that they won't be met, but if you don't set a mark to aim for, then nobody aims for anything. Same with mileage targets and whatever else. Having a stated goal gives something to shoot for, rather than a nebulous "let's be better" target.

[Crazed_Insanity]

A 10% annual reduction commitment or whatever set percentage would be a clearer and more achievable goal.

What would be the point of world leaders come together to have an accord about some obviously unachievable goal? When the goal cannot be met? Oh well, we tried. It didn’t happen because Trump and the republicans and all those other idiots. They fucked things up so much so there’s really not much we can do... let’s set another 20-30 year goal... when I don’t have to be accountable for the BS goal then...

Speaking of that, I wonder what would Biden do if he failed to open schools in100 days? Also, what if pandemic got worse because he achieved his goal? He’d still be happy because he kept his promise?

I just don’t like stupid goals.

[Crazed_Insanity]

As often seems to be the case, I don't think I understand what you're trying to say - So, over the past couple of decades we've determined via a vast scientific consensus that greenhouse gases (including carbon dioxide) are directly contributing to global climate change, which is lookin' to be a not-fun ride in the immediate future. Those aforementioned gases are in part emitted by human-controlled industries and technologies based on fossil fuels, which we've been burning like they're free and infinite for the past ~150 years, and which we can (in part) replace with different (if not as cheap) technologies which don't come with the same pollutant-related drawbacks, but could potentially have other issues.
So rather than attempt to reduce our consumption of those fossil fuels and work on replacing them with those different technologies - you, along with a lot of people who we know are getting paid by the fossil fuel industry (and a psychologist, who is mostly viewed as at best a half-bright asshole) are suggesting (based on no evidence that's been presented) that literally thousands of climate scientists are potentially politically biased, so therefore we should do nothing.
Is this right?

Somehow I missed your post.

No that’s not right. I don’t think Peterson is a climate denier. At least I’m not a climate denier. If Peterson is a climate denier, he certainly fooled me.

Personally, I’m all for cutting carbon emissions. If I were in charge, I’d just commit my country to cut carbon emissions by a certain % every year. Making this as bipartisan as possible so party changes won’t cause any hiccups. Stable regulations should also help industries adjust more easily.

Yes, JFKs 10yr mission to the moon was really something. However, he was biting off way more than he could chew too. We should’ve built it up more slowly and steadily. We might not reach the moon as quickly, but we probably would be enjoying commercial space travel now... rather than a sudden crash of space exploration, even losing launch capacity for a short while...

Steady as she goes is my motto.

Even Elon musk continued to miss his goals. Most people are not Elon.

A goal to be carbon neutral by 20whatever is as nebulous as no goal.

[Tom Servo]

Why would it be a clearer and more achievable goal? Why is it not a stupid goal when the other ones are? The only way I see it being different is that technically you never have to reach zero, if you keep taking 10% each time, you'll just approach zero, never reach it.

The GND looks for net-zero emissions by 2050. If you decrease by 10% per year, by 2050 you're at 4.7% above net-zero. How is that appreciably different? How is a curving goal headed towards a non-concrete ending clearer?

What if it took 10 years to develop tech that would lead to a significant reduction? Doing it by 10% a year front-loads the decreases - you have to decrease more in the beginning, by the end you're dropping tiny little bits of the total. Given that model, a 10% reduction per year means you need to cut 2/3 of your emissions in the first ten years, then 1/3 over the next 20. You have to cut 40% of your emissions in the first five years.

FWIW, this is what I whipped up to check the math: https://trinket.io/python/d26615a6ed

It's actually *harder* to reach than the original goal for the first part of the time period. Admittedly, it'd probably be better for the climate, so maybe I shouldn't be arguing against this...

For an example of how goals like the GND's do work, look at car mileage. CA specifically kept setting mileage goals for vehicles sold in the state. That helped push the development of hybrids. Yes, car manufacturers took some liberties to make it work, but it drove technology that improved the mileage of vehicles across the range that makes sell tremendously. Aspirational goals are a thing that works.

I also want to make sure you don't lose sight of the fact that Jill Stein advocated for net-zero by 2030.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Look, we don’t look a company’s profits every 20 30 years. We also don’t do performances reviews in our companies every 20 years.

Aspiring longterm goals are fine, but you know they’re more fluid. We need to be able to check and assess if we are on track, right?

If we’re off track, we better stop and revise our goal! Going to the moon is easy in this aspect because the goal is just to get there. You know if you’re closer or not. Climate change OTOH...

Lastly, Jill stein was a protest vote. Like I’ve said, I don’t even fully agree with Bernie’s policies. He is a better human being but I know that ‘my guy’ isn’t always right.

[Tom Servo]

Not a single question answered, just more squirming, and some serious Jill Stein revisionism. Meh.

[Crazed_Insanity]

You asked too many questions, I thought I generally answered them...

If you’re not satisfied, I’ll answer one specific question of yours. By 2050, yeah, 0% and 4.7% aren’t appreciably different, my approach actually will lose out by 2050! However, the main difference is that we keep our incremental commitment without worrying about party changes or what other nations are doing... and we check if we are on the right track. If not, goal will be revised before we get to 2050.

On a personal level as well. Do you just make an ultimate aspirational goal only? Want to be a millionaire by a certain age? Lose how many pounds by whatever time?

Why not just set a smaller incremental goal? Invest a little amount every month? Lose half a pound a day? If we can actually make these daily incremental commitments stick, it’ll be much easier to achieve our ultimate goal.

I do like to dream big, but to be practical, it’s steady as she goes that’ll get you where you want to be.

1st we learn to clean up our rooms, then our house, then our neighborhood, then our county, then our state, then perhaps our world. We have a lot of cleaning up to do. Let’s get it done by tomorrow. Not 2050! :p

[Tom Servo]

I asked questions because you made a statement. You said that a 10% (or whatever) per year reduction was clearer and more achievable, and I wanted you to back that up. I didn't think you did that, and I still don't.

Personal goals, quarterly profits, and employee reviews are way different than nationwide shifts. It's like expecting an oil tanker to turn as quickly as I do on a bike. FWIW, (and I just learned this) the actual Green New Deal bill in congress establishes a 10 year goal as well, which oddly matches your percentage plan, so you may not be that far off (40% in ten years, I think I remember it saying).

Of course it's easier to do small, incremental goals as a singular person. It's also easier to do small, incremental goals if you already know how to get there. We know how to save for retirement. We know how to lose weight. That all makes sense.

We don't necessarily know how to provide enough power while reducing emissions. We might, but it might take a lot of front-loading investment. Like "If we build a wind farm here, we can decommission this coal plant." -- it might take years to get the wind farm built, and years more to make sure that the wind farm is meeting demand and the coal plant can be decommissioned.

This is also one of the few times where I'll advocate for industry over governmental regulation when it comes to energy - industries themselves can set incremental goals that make sense to meet that 2050 goal. It might even be worth it to require them to present those to the public to show "here's our plan, here are our incremental goals, here's how we'll reach our goal by 2050, and here's how you can hold us accountable". It may not make sense to have an overarching set of incremental goals set by the government for every industry.

But to go further with what I think your point is, would it be bad for me to set a goal to lose 20 pounds by June? What if I only lose 17? Does that make it a failure? Was it a waste of time and I never should have bothered?

[Crazed_Insanity]

But to go further with what I think your point is, would it be bad for me to set a goal to lose 20 pounds by June? What if I only lose 17? Does that make it a failure? Was it a waste of time and I never should have bothered?

I think 17 lbs would still be a success. Better 17 than nothing!

My main concern would be that most would simply forget or give up on such a goal within 2 weeks. When June comes, that person might end up 20lbs over weight! Then he’s gonna think fuck it! It’s all satan’s fault for tempting me with delicious goodies... :p

In today’s political climate, you’d definitely have your political opposition derailing your goal. Not to mention AOC probably won’t even be around in 2050. Politicians are so good at shifting blame right now, how will we even hold them accountable in 2050?

Just because I’m not with you doesn’t mean I’m against you. I just think there could be a bite size versions of GND. What could be done near term based on scientists best guess that will help us reach our 2050 goal?

We don’t have to try to shove the entire GND down conservatives throats. Why pick a fight about 2050 when we only barely won in 2021? We didn’t even win because dems are awesome. Dems won because of trumps screw ups!

Also, rather than have a global agreement such as Paris accord, why not just lead by example? When our nation could elect president to walk away from it, then it’s kinda meaningless. Obviously USA doesn’t have our own house in order and cleaned, what good is it for such a nation to be part of that agreement? Just as Peterson said, let’s clean up our own rooms 1st.

[neanderthal]

Read a fantastic article (https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/8/7/20754430/renewable-energy-clean-electricity-grid-load-flexibility) on how the IOT (internet of things) can lead to less smarter energy use in the future. A future where a water heater "learns" that there's high demand for electricity and shuts itself down, or a home HVAC system realises there's excess power being generated and turns itself on to prevent overloading the grid. Where your electric car might charge at 2:00 AM in the morning or 10:00PM at night based on the needs/ best case use, of the grid.

Its not even a recent article, its from 2019.

What's funny is that about 6- 8 months ago I bought a washing machine for my sister. Hers had died and I was sick of doing laundry at the laundromat. I hadn't "fixed" my car and it still needed a transmission. That's since been done and I bought another one. (I live with my sister and her family.) So I was on my bike all the time for errands like laundry. We'd looked online and were at a big box store now looking at the physical models. There were internet connected washers and dryers and ignant lil ole me was like "why does my washing machine need to be connected to the internet?"
Now I know.

That $3800 fridge that shows you pics of your family on it's screen (why, was my original thought) would be able to turn it's compressor on and off according to the needs of the grid.

[neanderthal]

Also saw a theory being postulated, although I don't recall where, that these extreme weather events ARE being caused by climate change. The particular theory held that what's been happening with greenhouses gases in the atmosphere is the carbon emissions we're creating are displacing other gases, and that can often lead to enough displacement to "open a window" for the cold Arctic air to rush out of the air at the poles and create the weather conditions we just experienced in Texas.

[Crazed_Insanity]

These kinds of events hopefully can wake up more climate deniers in the south.

At this point in time, regardless of whether we’re in the Paris agreement or not, whether I live in blue California or red Texas, I can experience rolling black outs during these ‘special’ events.

Are Americans ready to do something now? Or are we still trying to push to get something done in 2050? Besides saving our future, we don’t even give a damn about saving us now! CA’s poor forest management screwed ourselves over. Similarly, Texas also screwed itself over with how they managed their utility infrastructure. We probably need to start fixing our broken or overlooked problems 1st in 2021 before tackling climate change in 2050... it’s much harder to prevent these ‘ special events’ but we certainly could’ve invested in better preparedness.

So We can still do something about climate change NOW that can be aligned with the overall GND yet it’s still something small enough that conservatives might be willing to accept?

Steady as we go toward our goal or steady as we bicker and fight and get nothing done. Actually at this stage, this is probably what the oil lobbyists are doing, get us to fight and do nothing, and then just blame the republicans...

Of course our freaking living la vida loca leaders who don’t really care about their constituents need to go too. They’ll be good for nothing and just be in the way. This is not just about Cruz and the republicans. Plenty is dems and union leaders are like that too. Yes, they’re better than Trump, but surely there are folks better than them.

Oh yeah, now that Trump is gone, our seeming back to normal government still has very little sense of urgency regarding normal crisis, let alone climate crisis. Covid relief bill is still being debated amongst dems because dems cannot all agree on that $15 min wage. Pelosi is hoping that they can get it done by end of February. Fingers crossed! Also, heard on NPR report that some 20 year olds along with some tweets of celebs helped them raise some money thru go fund me campaign to help out Texans who might need some cash for daily needs... local, state and federal government response is practically nonexistent.

Do you guys seriously believe GND will ever pass with current status quo?

Our government is fucked up, even without Trump. If we don’t solve this crisis somehow, I don’t think we have to worry too much about our climate.

[Dicknose]

Also saw a theory being postulated, although I don't recall where, that these extreme weather events ARE being caused by climate change. The particular theory held that what's been happening with greenhouses gases in the atmosphere is the carbon emissions we're creating are displacing other gases, and that can often lead to enough displacement to "open a window" for the cold Arctic air to rush out of the air at the poles and create the weather conditions we just experienced in Texas.

Theory is that warmer Arctic weakens the boundary between temperate and arctic systems and can allow these events.
But the science is not settled if this is happening due to climate change.
So Id be hesitant to blame the current American freeze on it, because if it does later show to be not be, it can damage the whole climate change argument.
Some people like to claim everything is climate change, to make it seem more relevant.

[neanderthal]

Theory is that warmer Arctic weakens the boundary between temperate and arctic systems and can allow these events.
But the science is not settled if this is happening due to climate change.
So Id be hesitant to blame the current American freeze on it, because if it does later show to be not be, it can damage the whole climate change argument.
Some people like to claim everything is climate change, to make it seem more relevant.

Indeed.

[neanderthal]

Trump's drone war that billi days he didn't do.

https://twitter.com/jchaltiwanger/status/1364065715658096647?s=19

[Crazed_Insanity]

Did you pay attention to the details!?Trump expanded Obama’s drone war!

When it comes to wars, bipartisanship can easily be reached. Even Trump could get in on it!

Anyway, I still would pad Trump on the back when it comes to minimizing sacrificing US soldiers lives needlessly in bogus unjust wars. Trump failed pretty much in everything else.

The other 2 things I liked about trump would be he’s good for the stock market and he stands up to CCP. That’s no easy task considering even Top Gun Maverick bowed under CCP by removing Taiwanese flag on his flight jacket in order to sell his sequel movie in such a massive market. Of course if Trump had hotel or golf course there in China, pretty sure he would invade Taiwan if CCP wants him to...

Anyway, point is I think we need to minimize wars. Both parties may not be exactly the same, but both enjoy shooting up the world for our own gain. Kinda pointless to play the my guy is better than your guy game. They pretty much all suck.

Lastly, hopefully people can move forward rather than continue to dwell on such a loser president. Shouldn’t we pay attention to other things more?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Theory is that warmer Arctic weakens the boundary between temperate and arctic systems and can allow these events.
But the science is not settled if this is happening due to climate change.
So Id be hesitant to blame the current American freeze on it, because if it does later show to be not be, it can damage the whole climate change argument.
Some people like to claim everything is climate change, to make it seem more relevant.

DN, just saw this post from you...

It's really interesting you always seems to be able to find ways to debate against me. :p When I say hope the US southerners can take this deep freeze as warning for climate change... now all of a sudden you change tune... hey, maybe we shouldn't blame this on climate change. This could very well be normal occurrence. Science isn't quite settled on this...

Really? Science isn't quite settled on this? So perhaps the conservatives have their reasons to oppose GND?

Of course I do realize that perhaps by the time scientists have all this climate thing figured out, it might be too little too late... or perhaps we're already too little too late... Climate deniers won't listen to science anyways. I really don't see what's the problem for blaming these weather events on climate change. Fear is one helluva way to change people's behavior. Its not like those people care very much about science anyway. Cutting down on carbon emissions and planting more trees can't possibly harm earth, right? The world just needs to make a commitment heading toward that direction as much as we can...

[Dicknose]

DN, just saw this post from you...

It's really interesting you always seems to be able to find ways to debate against me. :p When I say hope the US southerners can take this deep freeze as warning for climate change... now all of a sudden you change tune... hey, maybe we shouldn't blame this on climate change. This could very well be normal occurrence. Science isn't quite settled on this...

I really don't see what's the problem for blaming these weather events on climate change. Fear is one helluva way to change people's behavior. Its not like those people care very much about science anyway. Cutting down on carbon emissions and planting more trees can't possibly harm earth, right? The world just needs to make a commitment heading toward that direction as much as we can...

The problem is that if the science decides this is not caused by global warming it hurts the overall argument.
Similarly Im not a fan of blaming fires on climate change - yes they can make them more severe and common, but fires will happen. And plenty of other factors are involved (clearing, reduction burns, building into new areas).

Its false adverting and it can hurt your cause.

[Crazed_Insanity]

But the thing is that these special events are occurring more frequently.

I really don’t see too much of a problem to use these events to push or at least encourage people to head toward better energy regulations in Texas, better forest management in CA, and cutting down carbon emissions where we can.

Scientists have been wrong before, but scientists nevertheless march ever closer to truth always. These Prescriptions can’t really steer us wrong.

Of course if we wish to bet the farm on GND to fight climate change when we clearly still don’t fully understand it, we should be more understanding of conservatives for not willing to go along with GND.

[Tom Servo]

Counterpoint to the "don't see too much of a problem to use these events to push...people to head to [something]" - a lot of people, including some people on this board and one who was the President, took changing guidance from the CDC, the WHO, and Fauci about covid as signs that they didn't know what they were talking about rather than signs that they'd learned more and revised guidance. On it's face it doesn't seem bad, but having an inconsistent message, even if there's a good reason for the inconsistency, can lead some to ignore/doubt all messages.

[JoshInKC]

Knowing a lot of people in environmental sciences, climatology, and geography, most of them will will tell you "Yeah, this stuff is almost certainly related to climate change, but these types of events also occurred throughout planetary history. It's just that we seem to be getting them worse and more often than we used to, which is probably due to these mechanisms and these mechanisms." The main thing is that while we're near 100% confident on the end result of all of these interactions between these very complex mechanisms and systems ("Things are gonna get real bad and warm.") Everything is complex and interconnected enough that we can't be sure some other subsystem of the climate won't somehow go ahead and "fix" something we were pretty sure would break. However, we've still got very high confidence that overall, the climate will break.
It's the main reason that people have tried pretty hard to sell the terminology of anthropogenic "Global Climate Change" rather than "Global Warming". Everybody who does the science is certain that we're gonna end up with the global climate warming up over what we've had for the past several thousand years, but in some regions things could become cooler. It doesn't help the scientists trying to get good policies implemented when some jerk who represents a petro-state brings a snowball to the house floor when it typically doesn't really snow in Washington DC.

[Tom Servo]

I'd always taken it as warming in the "increased energy" sense. It's not like it's going to suddenly be like Los Angeles in Anchorage, but that the overall system will have more energy due to an overall increase in heat, and more energy means more exciting weather. Basically a larger scale version of how warmer water makes stronger hurricanes.

[Cam]

As a dude who is married to climate scientist, it's kind of cute to read you guys debate climate. :lol:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Counterpoint to the "don't see too much of a problem to use these events to push...people to head to [something]" - a lot of people, including some people on this board and one who was the President, took changing guidance from the CDC, the WHO, and Fauci about covid as signs that they didn't know what they were talking about rather than signs that they'd learned more and revised guidance. On it's face it doesn't seem bad, but having an inconsistent message, even if there's a good reason for the inconsistency, can lead some to ignore/doubt all messages.

The key is to push people to error on the side of caution. Worst case scenario is we wasted a bunch of masks or cut down on carbon emissions and ended up with cleaner air. Whereas if we don’t play it safe, we end up with a pandemic and extinction.

Explain to people that we have a shortage of N95 masks and ask people please save them for front line workers and limit exports and increase production of such masks. Don’t tell people we don’t need them!

Likewise, don’t tell people Texas deep freeze has nothing to do with climate change. Keep on driving big trucks and eat as many steaks as possible. Carry on because God will protect us no matter how sinful and unrepentant we are.

[Rare White Ape]

As a dude who is married to climate scientist, it's kind of cute to read you guys debate climate. :lol:

You’re the main reason why we don’t have a “Debating About Woodworking Controversies” thread.

[Yw-slayer]

You’re the main reason why we don’t have a “Debating About Woodworking Controversies” thread.

But we DO talk about deleting games!!!

[JSGeneral]

But we DO talk about deleting games!!!

/JSGeneral has entered the Politics thread.

[George]

^ RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! :eek:

By the way, CNC > hand tools for woodworking. :devil:

[Cam]

YOU ARE NOT A WOODWORKER IF YOU USE CNC!!!!!1!

(I do not actually share that belief, but there are a lot of trolls out there that will say something similar.)

[FaultyMario]

Forbes: The U.S. Air Force Just Admitted The F-35 Stealth Fighter Has Failed (https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2021/02/23/the-us-air-force-just-admitted-the-f-35-stealth-fighter-has-failed/?sh=3a327e411b16)



The F-35 is a Ferrari, Brown told reporters last Wednesday. “You don’t drive your Ferrari to work every day, you only drive it on Sundays. This is our ‘high end’ [fighter], we want to make sure we don’t use it all for the low-end fight.”

“I want to moderate how much we’re using those aircraft,” Brown said.

Hence the need for a new low-end fighter to pick up the slack in day-to-day operations. Today, the Air Force’s roughly 1,000 F-16s meet that need. But the flying branch hasn’t bought a new F-16 from Lockheed since 2001. The F-16s are old.

I think y'all wanna examine your budget priorities.

[SportWagon]

Oh. CNC = Computer Numerical Control.

Only a few other meanings, apparently.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Forbes: The U.S. Air Force Just Admitted The F-35 Stealth Fighter Has Failed (https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2021/02/23/the-us-air-force-just-admitted-the-f-35-stealth-fighter-has-failed/?sh=3a327e411b16)




I think y'all wanna examine your budget priorities.

Cost of developing new planes are just too high even for US government. So the idea of developing ONE plane that can suit the needs of many missions sounds great during the sales pitch, but of course not very practical.

It's like instead of buying a sports car, a sedan, a truck and a cargo van... salesman convinced you to instead buy just super vehicle Ford F-35!

Ford F-35 could run on the track, but slower than a sports car... it could fit passengers comfortably as sedans, but will gobble up lots of fuel. F-35 could be used as a truck or a cargo van too... but just won't go off road as well nor will it fit more cargo. It may cost less than buying all 4 separate vehicles, but you end up with a vehicle that is still very expensive and does everything poorly.

I don't know which top dog in Pentagon authorized that plane, but suffice to say that we can't hold him accountable now.

Pretty sure decisions were not made based only US government's best interests, but on fattening the pockets of military contractors and getting some kick backs out of it.

So authorizing a new plane? Surely every congress person would want a piece of this action in their own state or else they probably won't authorize this expensive thing just to fly around during ball games or be shown in Top Gun3... So when all the law makers are happy with getting their pieces of action... this new plane will be another costly useless hardware just as the article predicted.

SpaceX had help solved this similar problem for NASA. Will there be a new aerospace company as passionate as SpaceX able to deliver? Probably not.

Fighters are obsolete, IMHO.

[FaultyMario]

Your Ford analogy doesn't work, per the article.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Even better. If my analogy helped you understand the problem, great. If my analogy doesn't work, then it's working as well as the F-35. The whole point was that it doesn't work. I just can't lose no matter what. :p

[Rare White Ape]

Your analogy that you wrote was designed to help you understand the problem. And it failed.

To address the TRUE cause of the issue, it's that the F-35 program was driven into failure by your heroic government and US Military. Bloat and delays.

They really want a nimble canon fodder jet to swarm the skies with. They ended up with a hugely compromised white elephant that can be picked out of the sky by Russian-made jets without even needing to see them over the horizon.

And now overseas governments are forced to deal with that. We used to have the fast, long-range F-111, and all but one of them are now buried in a quarry west of Ipswich. Now the Australian Air Force can't even use its F-35s to bomb Jakarta without them running out of fuel, and the Russian-equipped Indonesian Air Force will keep any air tankers from being able to rendezvous, so they will just fall into the Timor Sea on their way home without a shot ever being fired.

The US government asked for it, and Lockheed Martin simply built what they wanted.

[neanderthal]

Your analogy that you wrote was designed to help you understand the problem. And it failed.

To address the TRUE cause of the issue, it's that the F-35 program was driven into failure by your heroic government and US Military. Bloat and delays. And during the delays, technology advanced

They really want a nimble canon fodder jet to swarm the skies with. They ended up with a hugely compromised white elephant that can be picked out of the sky by Russian-made jets without even needing to see them over the horizon.

And now overseas governments are forced to deal with that. We used to have the fast, long-range F-111, and all but one of them are now buried in a quarry west of Ipswich. Now the Australian Air Force can't even use its F-35s to bomb Jakarta without them running out of fuel, and the Russian-equipped Indonesian Air Force will keep any air tankers from being able to rendezvous, so they will just fall into the Timor Sea on their way home without a shot ever being fired.

The US government asked for it, and Lockheed Martin simply built what they wanted.

Bolded mine.

[JoshInKC]

There was a fun* made for HBO movie about the development of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle ( "a troop transport that can't carry troops, a reconnaissance vehicle that's too conspicuous to do reconnaissance, and a quasi-tank that has less armor than a snowblower, but has enough ammo to take out half of D.C.") ~20 years ago called "The Pentagon Wars". It was based on a book which was apparently pretty accurate about the government procurement process.
Based on everything I've heard, the F35 process was even more effed up than usual due to the added complications of it theoretically going to every service branch short of the Coast Guard and some "optimization" for international sales.

*Haven't seen it since around then, and only remember it vaguely so I dunno if it was actually any good.

[Tom Servo]

It really does make you miss the skunkworks days, when they made highly-specialized bonkers shit like the SR-71. I doubt it was a good idea financially and likely a bad idea overall, but at least you end up with a finished product that is awe-inspiring in some way.

[Rare White Ape]

That was a cold war era jet. Back then money was no object for programs like that. But who says that they're not still doing that? They have to have something going on in the deepest bowels of aerospace HQ.

Now that the Russians are allies and even lend a helping hand in elections in the USA, you just need a new enemy to be the focus of technological warfare development.

But it's probably a bad idea to romanticise wild and awe-inspiring vehicles like the SR-71, given their ultimate aim, which was to help facilitate the killing of humans somewhere else. But I do wish that sort of energy was still present in the space program. NASA feels hamstrung by risk aversion, and SpaceX is... meh. Plus Elon Musk is a total dick-brain.

Yes, yes, Artemis is happening, the next five years will be exciting, but it is happening too slowly. The last Shuttle's wheels stopped rolling ten years ago this July.

[Tom Servo]

Perseverance does feel like an extension of that kind of thing, and while I agree that romanticizing military hardware isn't great, at least the SR-71 was just recon. Point heard, though.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes, SR71 were the days... I feel that I missed the golden years of aerospace industry...

Anyway, we need bunch of different smaller companies in order to have innovations. Merging them together to form giant behemoth really helped nobody.

For my current employer, I think we also have a software problem. 737max, crew capsule failed to reach ISS, even the SLS rocket aborted hot fire test early... all software related issue.

Anyway, if it weren’t for that dick brain of Elon musk, I’m sure space would be even more boring and we’d still be relying on Russians to get our astronauts to space.

This world needs more dick brains. :p

The missions to Mars are cool too of course. Better that than landing and invading another nation on earth.

[neanderthal]

https://twitter.com/PalmerReport/status/1364784787593003012?s=19

[Crazed_Insanity]

Dems have lots of pragmatic excuses.

Look, when it was the rich wall st type in crisis, Obama gave them their stimulus bill around mid February already. When it comes to saving Main Street, urgency just isn’t there.

Both times republicans fucked it up big time to give dems control. Will dems really do well to maintain power? At current trajectory, probably not. Trump just might come back 2024. Somebody better send him to prison before 2024...

[Crazed_Insanity]

To be stuck because dems cannot agree on whether to give workers living wage is really a damn shame. Seriously, why do we need you then? Why not just let republicans in charge? At least the rich and the stock market will be happier?

If some of the dems are seriously concerned for some businesses inability to afford to pay a living wage, then perhaps a small amount of taxable UBI should be implemented to fill in the gap? So essentially living wages could be made possible by profitable giant companies and those workers who don’t really need this UBI to stay out of poverty levels will simple eventually pay it back during tax season....

Anyway, American workers should be making living wages one way or another.

Perhaps min wage debate just shouldn’t be part of the stimulus bill holding emergency funding up...

[FaultyMario]

It really does make you miss the skunkworks days, when they made highly-specialized bonkers shit like the SR-71. I doubt it was a good idea financially and likely a bad idea overall, but at least you end up with a finished product that is awe-inspiring in some way.

From what the article said, the main problem of the "low-cost F16 replacement project" was that lobbyist and politicians kept pushing for a multi-role aircraft, instead of the "small, fast, low-service" specialized item it was at the start of development.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Air Force wanted their f-16 replacement. Navy wanted their plane, needs to beef it up for carrier landing so can't be light weight anymore. Marine wanted their plane, needs vertical take off landing capability additional engine makes it even heavier...

They should've each gotten their own special planes, but instead, Joint Strike Fighter (F-35) was born.

SR-71 was created without lobbyists and politicians' influences.

Old way of doing thing was... we need to spy on the Russians or we need to go to the moon. Here's the money, get it done.
Today... There's no more "we". Congress and Pentagon may have different interests. Needs are brought up and we pretend to debate about it, decisions were made based on how it will enrich everyone involved.

To be somewhat fair, the world has changed. Without USSR, the evil empire, we really don't need these expensive weapon systems anymore. Unless CCP wish to step up and pickup where USSR left off?

The future battle will probably be in space, cyber space... and with drones. As cool as he is, Top Gun Maverick will be retired eventually... :(

[George]

As cool as he is, Top Gun Maverick will be retired eventually... :(

A few will continue, despite the odds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill


John Malcolm Thorpe Fleming Churchill...was a British Army officer who fought in the Second World War with a longbow, bagpipes, and a Scottish broadsword.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Medicine_Crow#:~:text=Joseph%20Medicine%20Crow %20(October%2027,chief%20of%20the%20Crow%20Nation.


Joseph Medicine Crow... [was] a Native American writer, historian and war chief of the Crow Nation. [Among similar deeds, he] led a successful war party and stole fifty horses owned by the Nazi SS from a German camp, singing a traditional Crow honor song as he rode off

[Crazed_Insanity]

That’s interesting. Should make a very interesting movie...

I guess it’s kinda like Indiana Jones?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Another question for Neanderthal, why do we need to fight for Neera Tanden’s confirmation? Why must she be confirmed? There are no other qualified person with less political baggage?

To be honest, I don’t understand why Bernie just couldn’t flat out say that he won’t vote for her. Clearly, if she’s confirmed, they will not have a good working relationship. This is not the time to play nice with Biden. This woman will most likely not play nice with you once confirmed.

[neanderthal]

Another question for Neanderthal, why do we need to fight for Neera Tanden’s confirmation? Why must she be confirmed? There are no other qualified person with less political baggage?

To be honest, I don’t understand why Bernie just couldn’t flat out say that he won’t vote for her. Clearly, if she’s confirmed, they will not have a good working relationship. This is not the time to play nice with Biden. This woman will most likely not play nice with you once confirmed.

You the motherfuckers that fight everything Democrats are trying to do then paint them with "Democrats and Republicans are exactly the same." You'll refuse to seat their nominees and complain "why couldn't they do X?" Etc.

That's why.

Don't pick X to be the leader and then tell X the team that they're assembling isn't the team you envisioned. Let X do what they said they'd do. Let them pick who they want to fulfil their vision.

In professional sports activist owners rarely own championship contesting franchises. Because coaches understand the game better than the owners do. Jerry Jones, probably the most famous of activist owners. Meddles with coaching decisions and personnel decisions all the time. Ask any Cowboy fan. As for what they've won, since 1995; there's always next year.

[Crazed_Insanity]

So is there a good reason to pick her? Look Bernie is being respectful and not being a mother fucker like me.

Can coach share with me why we must push to confirm her?

How would you convince Bernie?

[Rikadyn]

I'd much rather have Malcolm X as president.

[Rare White Ape]

Imagine if you were the Prime Minister of Australia, and this month you were dealing with a rape scandal within your staff dating back to 2019. It would be pretty bad wouldn’t it?

Now, imagine if you were the Prime Minister of Australia, and a historic rape allegation from 1988 surfaced, and it was possibly likely that you were the culprit, and the victim commuted suicide in 2020. That would be a relief, wouldn’t it?

[Tom Servo]

I disagree with neanderthal on this one. I think one of the fundamental flaws with the Trump admin (and, to a lesser extent, the George W. Bush admin) was that he kept getting a rubber stamp from a bunch of yes men, so I'm fine with push back.

That said:


There are no other qualified person with less political baggage?

This is literally the argument you argued vehemently against when it came to Al Franken.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Al Franken is already... ‘confirmed’ in his seat. There were no votes to confirm him or fire him. No investigations... We also don’t know how voters will vote if he were to have a re-election. He was just asked to resign by the party.

The situation isn’t quite the same, is it?

I’m not trying to cancel Neera in her existing position. Just asking why do we need to fight to begin her new career when clearly she is hated by ‘majority’ of senators. Bernie didn’t flat out say no, but clearly he would rather not confirm her if it were up to him.

Lastly, what Al Franken had wasn’t really ‘political’ baggage. Even if sexual allegations were true, it would’ve been ‘sexual’ baggage... similar to what Bill Clinton had. As long as they don’t give away secret intel to sexy spies or harass their coworkers, it shouldn’t affect their job performance...

Neera OTOH... if she does her job well in her mind, that will be bad news for progressives.

[FaultyMario]

https://pics.me.me/have-the-receipts-14685316.png

Guaranteed fun.

[Tom Servo]

Billi, I know your thing is moving the goalposts, but c'mon. What's next, "Al Franken resigned in January, but this is February. Isn't this really more of a January thing?"

[Crazed_Insanity]

No, of course not.

Do you really think it’s cancel culture trying to cancel Neera?

If Al Franken were running for senate race and that allegation propped up, and his poll #s dropped, then naturally I would also wonder about the same thing... do we not have another candidate who could replace him?

So I hope you see the difference between entering somebody in a race who has a poor chance of winning vs forcing somebody off of a position without due process.

If all politicians go by that bogus standard you pinned on me, they all would resign like Al, because all of them have their own baggage’s, right?

[Tom Servo]

The only standard I pinned on you is that you're now arguing the exact opposite of what you argued before, and you're doing every contortion you can to try to justify it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Because the 2 situations are not the same. Neera, not in office yet, and Al was already in office. How can the 2 situations be the same? Al should not have given up his office so easily.

I didn’t move goal posts. We have totally different posts and you’re trying to pin me on moving goal posts.

You’re kinda like DN, you just have to find something disagreeable out of my posts. Even though you probably agree with me that they should give up on Neera and saved a good senator like Al Franken? :p

Seriously, I really think Democratic Party often don’t know what they’re doing. Giving up on the stuffs that they really should fight hard for (Like Min wage, can't blame this failure on the republicans this time)... and then also often times pick a fight when it wasn’t really necessary(Waste time impeaching that asshole giving him all the spot-light and free publicity knowing that you don't have solid evidences nor the votes necessary to get the job done). Since I’m a goal post mover, I probably don’t know what I’m talking about. Okay, coach, I hope you won’t let Trump win again come 2024 if you know what you’re doing...

I also do hope Biden realizes that he didn’t win with overwhelming mandate. He only beat Sanders thanks to a master stroke move by Obama behind the scene and he only beat Trump because Trump totally screwed up this pandemic. Biden needs to win over more love on his own merit. I just don’t see how Neera could help him on that. She was one of those dems opposing raising min wage. However, she changed her tune after Sanders specifically asked her about it. That's probably why Sanders did not flat out say no to her. Eventhough she's been nasty to Sanders on a personal level with her tweets, as long as she really promised to commit to progressive cause, Sanders' willing to overlook her nastiness...

Personally, I'm not as nice as Sanders. I'd definitely give her a mutherfoquen no if I were a senator.

I get the feeling that Bernie bros are probably a bit frustrated by Bernie's niceness... so they try to vent out such frustrations for him. ;)

[tigeraid]

I see the democrats are picking right back up where the last three administrations left off.


http://scontent.fyzd1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/153261638_4762706950911_5119176801965652709_n.jpg? _nc_cat=111&ccb=3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=691VtzUbTcgAX8gcF5e&_nc_ht=scontent.fyzd1-2.fna&oh=9ebe5ba6fea7c601195c9dbe5f852f98&oe=60606723

[Tom Servo]

Yep, pretty disappointing, though I wish I could say I was shocked.

[Crazed_Insanity]

At least normalcy is restored.

However, we better shoot for a better normal... or else frustrated voters will go for Trump or somebody like Trump again.

We don't have to settle with this kind of normal.

[Rikadyn]

http://gtxforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3676&d=1614375408

3676

[Crazed_Insanity]

Okay, some Friday humor.

In honor of Al at the expense of Ted.


https://youtu.be/ww1VMHLybrA

[JoshInKC]

So the stage at cpac is in the shape of an odal rune. A symbol beloved by nazis who don't necessarily want to wear a swastika openly.
3677
So I guess its business as usual.
3678

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hitler gained power because people believed he could give them better lives by making Germany great again!

Hopefully dems will be able to make people's lives better so that America doesn't have to yearn to be great again.

1st thing to do is to quickly send the checks you promised. Then, you better find a way to deliver living wages and not just blame it on Hitler wannabes.

At least our constitution still functioned and prevented Trump from becoming a dictator. I guess that's the silver lining for the past 4 years.

[Rare White Ape]

Sealioning. Fascinating topic.

https://twitter.com/ichnologist/status/1103640081376706560?s=21

[Tom Servo]

Oooh, I'd never heard that one before, but goddamn have I run into it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What do you call the tactic that introduced 2 different goal posts and then accuse Billi for moving them as if they’re one?

Anyway, I have to agree to just disagree and not waste each other’s time. :p

[Tom Servo]

Oh, Billi.

[neanderthal]

NOT. ONE. REPUBLICAN voted for the COVID relief bill.

Nevermind that the economy is hanging on by a thread, millions are out of work, the pandemic is still pandemicking, they decided fuck the little people.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hey, Trump broke with GOP and wanted to give $2000 to Americans, not just $1400.

That’s why he just might return in 2024. Like I said, somebody better put him in prison soon...

[FaultyMario]

There's bi national "summit" today, between Mr. Biden and Mr. Lopez Obrador.

According to some economists, 3% of the population of the United States is made up of undocumented migrants, that's roughly 10 million people. Most of those migrants are employed in what those economists deem essential jobs, they add that it makes economic sense to provide them with basic healthcare, including but not limited to covid vaccination.

Mr. Lopez Obrador calculates that the U.S. economy needs between 600k and 800k Mexican workers and he plans to make a deal for a new bracero program, the WWII temporary manual laborer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_program) program.

If you guys had a functioning elections system, such a proposal would be already signed. But, because people in de-industrialized areas are still buying the rugged celebrity narrative that the financial elites so kindly sponsor thru their mouthpieces, we'll all lose.

Again.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think our election system still somewhat works... that's why when enough people were unhappy with Obama, somebody like Trump was able to take over. 4 years later, when enough people are sick of Trump, he wasn't able to win reelection... even with 'sleepy Joe' as his competitor.

Don't blame it all on the US. If Mexico were more like Canada, we would not have this undocumented worker problems. We don't get a bunch of undocumented Canadian workers here, right?

Also, when it comes to the inequalities of rich and poor, Mexico is probably way more out of whack than the US?

Both nations share responsibility in the exploitation of undocumented Mexican workers.

[FaultyMario]

Don't blame it all on the US. If Mexico were more like Canada, we would not have this undocumented worker problems. We don't get a bunch of undocumented Canadian workers here, right?

Yes, there are a lot of Canadian workers who overstay their permits.

It is orders of magnitude harder to get a tourist visa for a Canadian versus a Mexican citizen.

Original NAFTA effects on Mexican rural regions were foreseeable, there were, in fact, provisions for temporary work permits negotiated with Bush Sr. that Clinton reneged on, renegotiated, and then reneged on.

A streamlined, legal administrative procedure for temporary, rural and construction work for Mexican nationals to come to the U.S. that is much cheaper in economic and social costs is possible.

All the hypocritical immigration red tape put on by both parties is very effective in forcing people into illegal channels and into the hands of human traffickers, it is a source of revenue for the wrong sectors of the economy. The current arrangement is not only unmoral, it is inhumane, anti-christian, inefficient and stupid. It is also very effective for fear-mongering politicians.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes, that I can’t disagree with. Current arrangement really sucks. We exploit Mexican workers and then we make them out to be the bad guys breaking our laws...

Anyway, just wanted to express the little faith I have in our electoral process after 2020. Our main problem is corruption. At least it hasn’t corrupted our process to the point of completely dysfunctional yet...

[FaultyMario]

Speaking of Canada, there are different versions of this meme in spanish-speaking countries:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhfMrbSWoAIiUQe.jpg

When you visit Canada, When Canada visits you.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don't quite get that. What are the Canadians doing when they visit you?

[tigeraid]

Our mining and (especially) forestry regulations are getting more and more strict here, as they should. But Because Capitalism, our mining and forestry corporations are increasingly going to South America to rape and pillage the land, and spend pennies doing it.

It's not just America.

[FaultyMario]

Let's just say they're not the kind of neighbors (https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/bad-neighbours) you want coming over.

[FaultyMario]

Our mining and (especially) forestry regulations are getting more and more strict here, as they should. But Because Capitalism, our mining and forestry corporations are increasingly going to South America to rape and pillage the land, and spend pennies doing it.

Not only that, First Majestic Silver (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-tax-exclusive-idUSKBN2A12L2) was recently accused by the Mexican revenue service of keeping the price of silver artificially low in order to reduce their tax burden, and then not paying any taxes.


According to the government’s analysis, Primero Empresa Minera, which First Majestic bought in 2018, set its silver prices below market value in a system similar to transfer pricing used by multinationals to shift profits to low tax havens.

[...]

Officials last year also drew up criminal charges, in line with a recent reform that classifies tax fraud over 7.8 million pesos as a serious crime. According to an official document dated April 2020, reviewed by Reuters, prosecutors sought to recover from Primero Empresa Minera 426.3 million pesos ($20.71 million) in taxes owed in 2015 alone.

There's a bunch of cases like that, because of obsolete* laws in place, mining is characterized as a strategic industry and they tend to operate in really low tax brackets (I think it's 3% of sales), so these subsidiaries almost always sell to other companies in their corporate structure for pennies on the dollar, and they always go to court to fight audits. Because of corrupt judges and a slow judiciary, the taxman settled for a fraction of the tax debt. Or at least it used to, since the change of government, the tax authorities are biting harder.


*They're only obsolete because crony capitalism.

[tigeraid]

I doubt none of it. There are degrees of evil. America might be the big baddy, but that doesn't make our government or corporations white knights.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow. I didn't know that.

When nations pass laws, they really need to make such laws more universal... not just make their laws only applicable within their own borders and own citizens... and then turn a blind eye when foreign nations and citizens end up being abused by companies of their own nation...

On the flip side, again, I don't think we can solely blame such evils on Canada and capitalism. Corruption in South American nations are allowing this to happen too. This isn't really "rape", but consensual "fuck". Canadians didn't mobilize any troops to force this to happen, right?

Anyway, saddened to learn this... :(

Hope south american nations can fight off corruption so that they'll be able to protect their own nations better. Canadians don't dare do this to USA, right? Even USA don't dare to do this to Canada...

Anyway, all I can do is hopefully make USA less corrupt and less evil. No idea what I can do to help south american nations... other than try to make our own nation do the right thing.

[Dicknose]

When nations pass laws, they really need to make such laws more universal... not just make their laws only applicable within their own borders and own citizens... and then turn a blind eye when foreign nations and citizens end up being abused by companies of their own nation...

And you dont think capitalism hasnt already solved that - subsidiary local companies. They can obey the local, looser, rules. Multinational takes the money.

Australia has had a few of its big mining companies involved in some terrible stuff in other countries. Lots of people dead, areas polluted and left devastated. Then again they try that shit here as much as they can.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Capitalism will always find ways to make things cheaper of course. However, governments could setup rules to protect basic human and environmental rights. At the very minimum, ban imports of goods that came from that local subsidiary. At the maximum, make the parent companies pay for all the damages incurred by all of their subsidiaries.

It's pointless to free slaves in your own nation, but allow your companies to enslave people of other nations.
Likewise, speak of rejoining the Paris Accord to make yourself look good, but your companies are fucking up the world else where.

When corrupt leaders get together, naturally they'd like to fuck around. It's not just capitalism's fault. Our common goal should be to minimize the rot, not just about having this -ism fighting the other -ism. I personally believe whatever -ism could be made to work as long as we practice them justly and responsibly.

[Rare White Ape]

Wasn't it BHP or Rio Tinto that were at the centre of protests in Chile recently? Both are Australian mining megacorps.

Colonialism is still just as destructive today as it was when the Americas and Australia were settled by white people.

We have laws to deal with this stuff, but a company breaking these laws is basically unpunishable.

[Dicknose]

Capitalism will always find ways to make things cheaper of course. However, governments could setup rules to protect basic human and environmental rights. At the very minimum, ban imports of goods that came from that local subsidiary. At the maximum, make the parent companies pay for all the damages incurred by all of their subsidiaries.

Easy to say, hard to do.
How do you control actions in another country?
You could ban imports, but what if they dont import back to your country (esp mining, the raw materials probably go to other countries). Even then are you penalising the company or that country?

We shouldnt exploit other countries, but it is also tricky to interfere on how they run.

There is a push for stuff like "ethical" products eg palm oil, coffee. And for better working conditions in places like Bangladesh. But most of these end up being consumer driven. Harder when its more industrial products or raw materials.

RWA - yeah both BHP and Rio Tinto have very poor records of safety in other countries.
And multinationals, companies picking their country of incorporation - really can let them get around taxes and laws. Its some of the worst of capitalism, as it gets outside controls.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If these unethical companies don’t ever sell their goods back home, naturally it’ll be hard to get them.

However, if raw materials or products like iPhones were produced using unethical corrupt means or slave labors, government should tax the hell out of these products when they’re sold back home.

The screwed up part is that our politicians are corrupted and in on this so that they’d rather give these companies tax cuts.

As last resort, governments should set up anti-asshole laws against such companies just as we now have anti-trust laws in order to bring these companies to justice. If having a monopoly is wrong, surely slave labor and destroying the environment can’t be that right.

Anyway, in my dreams anyways...

[Rare White Ape]

I swear sometimes reading your posts is like reading Winnie the Pooh.

You need a different book from which to draw inspiration. Have you heard of... I dunno... Transmetropolitan?

[JoshInKC]

:up:
Upvote for Transmetropolitan.

[Rare White Ape]

For some people it was eye opening. For me, it just made me want to burn things more than I did before.

[Yw-slayer]

I swear sometimes reading your posts is like reading Winnie the Pooh.

Be careful, his bros like to try and claim that someone Billi hates also resembles Winnie the Pooh...

[Rare White Ape]

Dude don't talk about that!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you want to get this whole forum banned in China????????????????

[Rare White Ape]

Oh man :(
http://www.chinafirewalltest.com/?siteurl=http%3A%2F%2Fgtxforums.net%2Fforum.php

[Crazed_Insanity]

So we're already banned? My work laptop doesn't allow me to get on that link you posted...

Anyway, I have a dream! That some day, Pooh bear and I will be able to visit China without any fears of execution!

[Rikadyn]

So we're already banned? My work laptop doesn't allow me to get on that link you posted...

Anyway, I have a dream! That some day, Pooh bear and I will be able to visit China without any fears of execution!

Until they have to deal with you for 5 minutes....

[Crazed_Insanity]

What do you mean? Are you a prophet of God? That as long as God and Pooh bear is with me, I shouldn't be afraid? Within 5 minutes of meeting Xi Jingpin, the Holy Spirit shall overcome the president of China and cause him to repent of his sins and accept Jesus?

Then all of China will be set free? Top Gun Maverick will be allowed to wear his original flight jacket... and even Dalai Lama will feel safe enough to return home in Tibet? Hallelujah!

[FaultyMario]

Who's this parliamentarian dude and why he is such a douche?

[Rikadyn]

What do you mean? Are you a prophet of God? That as long as God and Pooh bear is with me, I shouldn't be afraid? Within 5 minutes of meeting Xi Jingpin, the Holy Spirit shall overcome the president of China and cause him to repent of his sins and accept Jesus?

Then all of China will be set free? Top Gun Maverick will be allowed to wear his original flight jacket... and even Dalai Lama will feel safe enough to return home in Tibet? Hallelujah!

I see it more as a scene from one of the Owen Wilson + Jackie Chan movies

[Jason]

Who's this parliamentarian dude and why he is such a douche?

It’s just a distraction, even if the parliamentarian approved of the minimum wage portion, Manchin isn’t going along with it, and nor are Republicans, and Democrats don’t have a filibuster proof majority. Minimum wage is dead in the water until Dems win more seats in the Senate.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That's BS Jason.

If it were the republicans doing budget reconciliation to give tax cuts to the rich, if this freaking parliamentarian gets in their way, all they had to do is fire his ass and replace the person with another more agreeable parliamentarian and they'll be able to get their tax cuts for the rich.

Dems likes to have excuses when shit cannot get done. It's not our fault, blame it on the republicans or this parliamentarian. We want to give you living wage. Really, we really really do! But our hands are tied! So sorry american workers. Listen, if you vote republican, you'll get a worse deal. So stick with us! Trust us. We know what were doing. If you work hard and get a job on Wall Street, you'll be able to make way more than living wage! And if you work on Wall Street and need help, we'll definitely come to your rescue sooner and with less excuse. Because we need your funds!

Right now it's convenient to blame it on this parliamentarian. We don't want to show the world that not all democrats are for living wages... Dems love to say politically correct things, but often not do what is correct. This is the main reason why most conservatives thought political correctness is full of shit.

Neanderthal, no hard feelings. I know Republicans are way way worse, but I can't help but lashing out against the dems with this issue.

If Biden asks this parliamentarian nicely and firmly that he WANTS to pay american workers a living wage, will this parliamentarian really be stupid enough to stand up against the president? This unelected asshole has more power than the president and the elected senators? You gotta be kidding me.

Jason, realistically speaking, we probably need to kick all republican senators out of the senate in order to pass this thing... which is probably never... unless progressives form a major 3rd party and work with the more reasonable dems...

Democratic party as is... is just broken... and based on what I've seen so far, I don't believe Biden will do much to change anything. Status quo is the best he'll do. Yes, he's better than Trump, for sure. But still not good enough. With this kind of performance, it's only matter of time before Trump and the GOP regain power. Somebody really need to lock him up soon!

[Jason]

My point is, parliamentarian or not, we don’t have the votes in the Senate to pass anything left of moderate. Manchin and Sinema will not go along with anything that Warren and Sanders want, basically.

[Rare White Ape]

An alleged rapist in our federal parliament is due to out himself today. He'll fall on his sword for the good of the party. It's also a nice distraction from the other rape scandal that has befallen federal politics in Australia.

The woman who made the allegations in 2019, dating back to 1988, committed suicide in 2020, so the case can't be prosecuted.

He will basically get away with it. It's an open secret that his name is Christian Porter and he is our Attourney General, the top lawmaker in the country.

[Crazed_Insanity]

My point is, parliamentarian or not, we don’t have the votes in the Senate to pass anything left of moderate. Manchin and Sinema will not go along with anything that Warren and Sanders want, basically.

I understand.

This parliamentarian thing is just a cover for the party.

They should've let those senators vote it down, let them feel the heat.

If we lose those seats to the Republicans, would that really make much of a difference? Those 2 senators are essentially republicans wrapped in democrat's clothing, no? If they truly represent their constituents, surely their seats will continue to be safe. If they don't really represent their constituents, surely voters will vote in a new guy... hopefully somebody bluer.

Biden fought harder to get Neera confirmed than giving american workers a living wage. That is fucked up.

If you can't even negotiate with people within your own party, what kind of freaking BS are you trying to pull by pretending to be bipartisan? Unify your own party 1st. If $15/hr is too much for those 2 senators, work with them and see what other options are available? Perhaps some sort of UBI to help fill in the gap? Or perhaps some exclusion clause? Allowing mom and pop small businesses to hire part timer students without needing to meet the min wage requirements?

If this trend continues, Biden/Harris will definitely not get my vote come 2024. I get the feeling that Biden himself isn't really for $15 min wage. Otherwise he'll fight as hard as he is right now for Neera. Biden was so firm with this opening up schools in 100 days so that their parents get get back to working slave wages. Bravo!

If we can't even get it done thru budget reconciliation, we'll probably never be able to get it done. I shall be a 3rd partier til I die. Actually, I just might not vote for people I don't like. Why waste my protest votes on people I also might not like. Will find other ways to influence US politics.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Who's this parliamentarian dude and why he is such a douche?

BTW, parliamentarian is not a dude, but a dudette.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/23/us/politics/stimulus-senate-parliamentarian.html

To be fair to her, she's claiming she's doing her job by trying to uphold constitutionality of the bill...

Even if that were really the case, if it were up to you, would you deny american workers living wages because you deem certain bill to be unconstitutional as if you're a supreme court judge?

I find it unbelievable. It's like saying this bill giving American workers living wage is so unbiblical, I cannot approve of this because God doesn't not approve this... or founding fathers must not want this...

I dunno man, I just can't believe constitution is against giving american workers living wages.

I'd find it more believable if she were to declare the entire budget reconciliation process as something unconstitutional, but just this specific thing as unconstitutional?

I just think she's clearly covering for the democratic party. Biden from the get go was signalling that we can forget about min wage increase from this bill because he couldn't get all the democratic senators onboard.

He personally cannot take that out, but he probably doesn't want it to not pass with dem senators voting against him... I can understand he's in a tough bind, but I just didn't see him putting up much of a fight.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Okay, glad to see Neera Tanden withdraw. I would be totally pissed to see $15 min wage striped and her confirmed as budget chief.

[Jason]

FWIW Manchin/Sinema support the COVID relief bill minus the minimum wage hike. Republicans don't support the bill at all. So the big difference between moderate Dems and Republicans is that the former will vote to support many Dem bills whereas Republicans will almost never support. Also, if those two seats are replaced by Republicans, then you have McConnell as Senate Majority Leader, and no bills from the House will get voted on, and no judges/justices will get confirmed.

There is nuance to running this country.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I understand that.

Those 2 senators need to do the will of their constituents. They still should let them vote so that we have a record.

Somehow I find it hard to believe that majority of their constituents are so appalled by the min wage increase only and perfectly fine with a big stimulus package.

Those voters who support the big stimulus checks most likely won't hate wage increases. Think about it. Are there more business owners or workers? Who has more votes?

Dems representing laborers have this inherent advantage! We have way more votes because we have way more workers!

However, at the moment, dems are hijacked by the rich lobbyists hence they are now 'corporate moderates'.

It really makes no sense to be a corporate moderate. Corporations would rather have GOP in charge.

GOP usually wins because they have more money because being corporate friendly will definitely help you raise more money. Doesn't matter which dumbfuck they nominate.

Dems, in theory, should win big because we have more workers(votes).

Corporate moderates can only win when GOP fucked it up bad.

My argument is that we don't need these moderates. They are useless.

Voting back and forth between GOP and these Corp Mods will only cause America to suck again and again...

Oh I also personally believe some of these politicians purposely position themselves that way to highlight their importance rather than truly representing the will of their constituents.

Do you truly believe voters won’t vote those 2 out of the office because of a huge stimulus package but would think that they crossed the line with $15 an hour wage?

Only folks who’d be pissed off would be the corporations that funded their campaign.

Even republican workers. You believe they’d be pissed to earn living wages?

[FaultyMario]

You mean to tell me it's a made up story "grown ups" get to hide behind in order to defend their broken promises?

Gee!

[Yw-slayer]

Do you want to get this whole forum banned in China????????????????

I am probably the only one on the planet who visits this forum and lives in China...

[21Kid]

I am probably the only one on the planet who visits this forum and lives in China...
You're in China?!?

;-)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Really appreciate you coming here. Seriously. Someday, I hope China will be free from that dictatorship.

Of course I also appreciate CCP keeping USA in check and not allow US to get too out of control. China and US are now the 2 major parties of the world. Just like the US, both major parties sucked pretty badly though. Interestingly the more progressive nations, just as progressives in the US, also don't have as much power to do much to save the world. We applaud them, but they just can't attain enough power to influence the world for the better for some reason.

Nice guys finish last I suppose.

[Dicknose]

Interestingly the more progressive nations, just as progressives in the US, also don't have as much power to do much to save the world. We applaud them, but they just can't attain enough power to influence the world for the better for some reason.

Nice guys finish last I suppose.
Or big guys become bullies...

Places like Norway or New Zealand are never going to be world powers. They can (and do) lead by example.

[Rare White Ape]

I don't think NZ wants to be a world power. They're just chill az bro.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Good leaders are usually reluctant leaders. Good people don't aim to just become world leaders nor seek power, they just lead by example...

Just saying... in the wonderful world of Winnie the Pooh, maybe we can have good guys powerful enough to fight off bullies...

Maybe nice guys finish last means they'll be the last ones left standing! ;) The meek are suppose to inherit the earth...

I do believe most Americans and Chinese are good people. I just hope someday these good people will be able to take back their countries.

[Rare White Ape]

You can only fight off bullies by matching or exceeding their aggression.

Unfortunately that doesn't gel with the tiny world of Winnie the Pooh.

[Rare White Ape]

Perhaps the big world of Spider Jerusalem would do you some good.

[Leon]

I don't think NZ wants to be a world power. They're just chill az bro.

This checks out. We don't need the grief.

[Crazed_Insanity]

You can only fight off bullies by matching or exceeding their aggression.

Unfortunately that doesn't gel with the tiny world of Winnie the Pooh.

Anyway, I’m not actually a Winnie the Poohian, but a Christian.

Need to remind you that the Romans bullied Jesus to death, but 2021 years later, who do you think won?

[neanderthal]

It’s just a distraction, even if the parliamentarian approved of the minimum wage portion, Manchin isn’t going along with it, and nor are Republicans, and Democrats don’t have a filibuster proof majority. Minimum wage is dead in the water until Dems win more seats in the Senate.


Thank you.

And we could have won more seats in this last election (ignoring voter suppression efforts) but *VOTERS* chose not to give Biden a filibuster proof majority in the Senate and handed Nancy a slim majority in the Congress.

So time for these "progressive lawmakers" (who I heard are thinking of tanking this whole covid bill) to write a $15 minimum wage law and get Republicans to vote on it

[neanderthal]

l understand.

This parliamentarian thing is just a cover for the party.

They should've let those senators vote it down, let them feel the heat.

If we lose those seats to the Republicans, would that really make much of a difference? Those 2 senators are essentially republicans wrapped in democrat's clothing, no? If they truly represent their constituents, surely their seats will continue to be safe. If they don't really represent their constituents, surely voters will vote in a new guy... hopefully somebody bluer.

Biden fought harder to get Neera confirmed than giving american workers a living wage. That is fucked up.

If you can't even negotiate with people within your own party, what kind of freaking BS are you trying to pull by pretending to be bipartisan? Unify your own party 1st. If $15/hr is too much for those 2 senators, work with them and see what other options are available? Perhaps some sort of UBI to help fill in the gap? Or perhaps some exclusion clause? Allowing mom and pop small businesses to hire part timer students without needing to meet the min wage requirements?

If this trend continues, Biden/Harris will definitely not get my vote come 2024. I get the feeling that Biden himself isn't really for $15 min wage. Otherwise he'll fight as hard as he is right now for Neera. Biden was so firm with this opening up schools in 100 days so that their parents get get back to working slave wages. Bravo!

If we can't even get it done thru budget reconciliation, we'll probably never be able to get it done. I shall be a 3rd partier til I die. Actually, I just might not vote for people I don't like. Why waste my protest votes on people I also might not like. Will find other ways to influence US politics.

Every time you type something I see clearly that you have just a shallow understanding of it

[neanderthal]

Thank you.

And we could have won more seats in this last election (ignoring voter suppression efforts) but *VOTERS* chose not to give Biden a filibuster proof majority in the Senate and handed Nancy a slim majority in the Congress.

So time for these "progressive lawmakers" (who I heard are thinking of tanking this whole covid bill) to write a $15 minimum wage law and get Republicans to vote on it

We keep hearing about these progressive lawmakers: let's see them craft some laws and get this shit through both houses of Congress so Biden can sign.

Coz all I see and hear is talk, and no action. And that's kinda why I look at "progressives" and just move on, go about my business.

I have no problem with their ideas, their positions, their ideology, but I have a huge problem, a giant fucking problem, with their legislative efficacy.

Any fool can tweet, try passing some laws.

[neanderthal]

And, it shouldn't need mentioning that primarying and defeating Sinema and Manchin will most likely result in REPUBLICANS winning their seats.

[Rare White Ape]

Need to remind you that the Romans bullied Jesus to death, but 2021 years later, who do you think won?

Assuming you're talking from a position where you believe both were equally real, the Romans did. Their government might have crumbled but it paved the way for the dominant western civilisation we know today. It now uses Christianity as a crutch to excuse all the oppression, destruction and greed that minorities and people in poor countries suffer from.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Manlychin is only voting down $15 min wage not because he’s afraid of losing votes during his next reelection, but only afraid of losing money during his next election.

Like I said, only way corporate moderates could win is when republicans royally fucked it up.

I’ll give Obama more credit though. At least the pretended to be the more progressive candidate when he ran against Hillary.

He really should’ve stuck to his word and stayed in the senate and allowed Hillary to win the WH. After 8 years of that, Obama would’ve been a better candidate against Trump.

Anyway, If this $15 min wage thing is passed, it’ll be credited to Bernie. He’s fought for it way harder than Biden. Let’s see if Bernie could do it later.

Can you share with me the benefit of being a corporate moderate? Why can’t we have living wage? What nuance is there that I missed? Should democrats really answer to corporations or to the people?

Lastly, did Biden negotiated with manly dude for a $14, $13 min wage? Wouldn’t that be the more pragmatic thing to do? Rather than just give up because of parliamentarian? Why didn’t he give up when Iranians attacked?

Bottomline is Biden doesn’t truly believe in living wage.

[Tom Servo]

Manlychin

You lost me exactly here.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Assuming you're talking from a position where you believe both were equally real, the Romans did. Their government might have crumbled but it paved the way for the dominant western civilisation we know today. It now uses Christianity as a crutch to excuse all the oppression, destruction and greed that minorities and people in poor countries suffer from.

Funny how you credit all the positives about white euro men as if they’re all romans and attributed all the negative stuffs to Jesus. As if bullies need crutches to act aggressively.

I don’t believe jesus asked for crusades to save his religion, nor did he teach Catholic Church to sell salvations and lead the world into the dark ages... nor did he command missionaries to rape and murder American Indians in the new world, nor did he ordered Africans to be enslaved.

Yes, there are a lot of hateful white folks who like to hide behind that cross, from nazis to Westboro baptists...

But the reality is that there are plenty of none white folks who’ve picked up this cross crutch to truly follow Jesus. Who follows anything that Romans do nowadays? USA and CCP will also be things of the past soon as well... bullies don’t last...

What is Godly or lovely shall last forever!

[Crazed_Insanity]

You lost me exactly here.

Will womanlychin be better?

[Tom Servo]

No.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What ever kind of chin he has, he needs to put it on record. Let his constituents know that they can’t have living wages.

I find it hard to believe that his constituents are against living wages.

Now if he loses his donors and can’t afford to run against the republicans..., hopefully his constituents will remember that he fought hard for living wages...

With these corporate moderates, losing our majority is something that is going to happen sooner or later.

When things return to ‘normal’, establishment will prefer corporate extremists rather than moderates...

[Rare White Ape]

Funny how you credit all the positives about white euro men

I didn't credit any positives. I said it was dominant. That doesn't mean it was good.


as if they’re all romans

I didn't say that either. The people aren't romans but the culture and politics of western society are.


and attributed all the negative stuffs to Jesus.

My negativity towards religion runs deeply but I didn't attribute the 'negative stuffs' to religion. Western society is the root cause of many of the world's negatives (it's almost as if negative acts are inherent in the system) and your beloved religion is used by it as an excuse. Religious leaders do not do anything to prevent this from happening, so they are fully complicit in the wrongs of the world.


As if bullies need crutches to act aggressively.

Bullies will do anything underhanded to justify their acts.


Who follows anything that Romans do nowadays?

Almost everyone. We haven't really learned much.


USA and CCP will also be things of the past soon as well... bullies don’t last...

Again, we haven't learned much, and another bully will rise out of the ashes of the current one.


What is Godly or lovely shall last forever!

It will as long as there are bullies for it to leech off, and for them to use as a crutch.

[Rare White Ape]

Now I will sit and wait for you to twist that entire post into what you want to hear.

[neanderthal]

Manlychin is only voting down $15 min wage not because he’s afraid of losing votes during his next reelection, but only afraid of losing money during his next election.

Like I said, only way corporate moderates could win is when republicans royally fucked it up.

I’ll give Obama more credit though. At least the pretended to be the more progressive candidate when he ran against Hillary.

He really should’ve stuck to his word and stayed in the senate and allowed Hillary to win the WH. After 8 years of that, Obama would’ve been a better candidate against Trump.

Anyway, If this $15 min wage thing is passed, it’ll be credited to Bernie. He’s fought for it way harder than Biden. Let’s see if Bernie could do it later.

Can you share with me the benefit of being a corporate moderate? Why can’t we have living wage? What nuance is there that I missed? Should democrats really answer to corporations or to the people?

Lastly, did Biden negotiated with manly dude for a $14, $13 min wage? Wouldn’t that be the more pragmatic thing to do? Rather than just give up because of parliamentarian? Why didn’t he give up when Iranians attacked?

Bottomline is Biden doesn’t truly believe in living wage.


Every time you type something I see clearly that you have just a shallow understanding of it

Like I said.

Look at you being like Trump and trying to undermine people you don't like by giving them a nickname. Go mini Trump!

Wait, I did say the far hard left and the fat right are similar at one point didn't I? Horseshoe theory and all that. Thanks for proving it.

[JoshInKC]

Jesus christ - If you're counting billi as far hard left then I don't have the slightest idea where I'd fall in your conception. As far as I can tell, he's just a flailingly confused and inconsistent populist.

[Rikadyn]

Jesus christ - If you're counting billi as far hard left then I don't have the slightest idea where I'd fall in your conception. As far as I can tell, he's just a flailingly confused and inconsistent populist.

Kinda a good example of how corrupting right wing propaganda is.

[FaultyMario]

Kinda a good example of how corrupting effective right wing propaganda is.

There, fixed.

[Crazed_Insanity]

To be fair, he did captured the nuance that I'm not just hard left(who like Bernie Sanders), but also hard right(mini trump)! Neanderthal, to give Bernie and Trump some credit, they were the only 2 willing to give Americans $2000 chks. Both establishment on either right or left were more pragmatic about it and only willing to hand out $600 or $1400. So can you really blame Bernie and Trump supporters? Also, why are you so loyal to your pragmatic politicians who think of the corporations 1st and thought of you last?

I seriously have no problems with either the right or left as long as they conduct themselves in justly.

Is that really confusion? Aren't most people both pro-life AND pro-choice? Both choosing embryos or choosing masks or vaccines are pro-life, no? Choosing no baby, no vaccines, no masks are pro-choice, no? People switch sides when it's politically convenient for them. However, the reality is that people are both pro-life and pro-choice. Except whenever we choose, we should choose so justly, not only for selfish reasons. Think of others as well. If we're all that responsible, it'll be impossible to stay only on one side all the time on all issues...

It's also very clear to me that both capitalism and socialism could very well co-exist together. We need capital to grow our way up and we need to be social and helpful to one another during our way down. The two are not in conflict with one another. Nobody likes to see capitalists not pay fair wages and destroy whatever in its path, also nobody likes to see socialists destroy wealth and its entire culture such as culture revolution in china... as long as we do things justly, anything can be made to work well. Even dictatorship can work well if we have a just dictator!

So I actually would consider myself as people moderate, not a corporate moderate. I'm for living wages and I'm also for capitalism. I'm also both for BLM and the cops! There are definitely black thugs and bad cops. They are the problem. Not the entire black population nor the entire police department. We can't solve our problems by erasing black people nor erasing cops. Even Billi realizes the nuance in such situation. If we all act justly, we can live in the world of Winnie the Pooh.

Lastly to address RWA, your negativity towards religion is understandable, but your negativity toward Winnie the Pooh makes no sense.

I'm also not promoting people to just be 'religious'. That'd be the same as just being politically correct on the surface, but refuse to actually do what is correct. To be a follower of Jesus is not about being religiously correct, but to actually do the right things. When people do the wrong things in the name of Jesus, Jesus should not be blamed for that.

But of course in the real world, Jesus was blamed 2021 years ago and nailed on the cross.

But no worries, no matter what bullies do, Jesus will win. Such is the power of love! Bullies seduced by the power of the dark side will not be able to overcome it! ;)

[Rikadyn]

“Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.”

Barry Goldwater

[Crazed_Insanity]

This is why it's important to learn the Word of God ourselves and not allow bullies to tell us what God is saying.

Genuine preacher's job is to simply preach the good news to anyone who wants it. At most, you lead a movement to fight for justice, such as what MLK did.

Not to gain control of a political party.

No way in hell would Jesus join or even endorse a political party or run for public office. If Jesus really wants you to preach, then you should just be a preacher and preach and remain his loyal servant, rather than run and become a public servant.

Anyway, a corrupt church can definitely be a problem. What is suppose to be a light of the world, thus end up leading the world into dark ages. However, darkness cannot win in the end. Jesus' light didn't even need to make any compromise with darkness...

I believe back in the day, pharisees are conservatives and sadducees are more liberal... Apostle Paul was a more conservative pharisee prior to his conversion. After becoming a follower of Christ, he did not remain a pharisee nor did he look down upon sadducees. He also could not care less about political power.

Those who hunger for power and look down upon a segment of the population are obviously not really following Jesus.

[Jason]

Jesus christ - If you're counting billi as far hard left then I don't have the slightest idea where I'd fall in your conception. As far as I can tell, he's just a flailingly confused and inconsistent populist.

Yup.

[Rare White Ape]

Neanderthal you're right about the far hard left being as bad as the far hard right. They dip into fascistic tendencies when pushing back against right-wing fascism. But I do heartily agree with their plan to guillotine every monarch and oligarch on the planet :p

Horseshoe theory is one thing. What amuses me the most is donut theory. It's when lefty hippies who want to 'live free' and 'off the grid', you know, the sort of people who have a distrust for big pharma are into natural remedies etc, end up circling around to being right wing nut jobs (RWNJs) because they're easily led on my Q-spiracies and anti-vax propaganda. There are a LOT of them near me in northern NSW. Byron Bay area.

Celebrity chef Pete Evans (who you may remember from earlier discussions I posted here) was eventually brushed aside by his old employers in TV land for his outspoken views on vaccinations, hydroxychloroquine, and other RWNJ topics, then sacked completely by supermarket chains who stocked his products after he posted Nazi symbols in a tweet. He claims to have been silenced and his free speech taken away, so he has become a warrior for free speech by using his ability to speak freely to form a political party in which he will contest for a seat in the senate at the next federal election. He's likely to drag all of the hippies along with him, but all he will do is syphon a few votes away from the big political parties and thus become an ineffectual wart on the side of Australian politics.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Rest assure Lord Jesus Christ is not going to just become an ineffectual wart, but more like an amazing nipple giving life to future generations and guiding them toward the right directions! :p

You guys can try to pin me as a confused hippie the pooh or a neo-nazi if you want, but I do believe I know who I'm following.

President Biden prophetically said that Neanderthal thinking is wrong. I agree with him. :p

Now, don't get me wrong, I still do respect and love Neanderthal, I do believe he is a decent guy, just misguided by all the nuances...

[neanderthal]

Jesus christ - If you're counting billi as far hard left then I don't have the slightest idea where I'd fall in your conception. As far as I can tell, he's just a flailingly confused and inconsistent populist.

You're absolutely right. He's more confused than far left. Mea culpa. Just wanted to show him an example of himbeing Trumpian, then again all I need to do is quote his posts and the trainwreck of no direction is obvious.

[neanderthal]

To be fair, he did captured the nuance that I'm not just hard left(who like Bernie Sanders), but also hard right(mini trump)! Neanderthal, to give Bernie and Trump some credit, they were the only 2 willing to give Americans $2000 chks. Both establishment on either right or left were more pragmatic about it and only willing to hand out $600 or $1400. So can you really blame Bernie and Trump supporters? Also, why are you so loyal to your pragmatic politicians who think of the corporations 1st and thought of you last?

I seriously have no problems with either the right or left as long as they conduct themselves in justly.

Is that really confusion? Aren't most people both pro-life AND pro-choice? Both choosing embryos or choosing masks or vaccines are pro-life, no? Choosing no baby, no vaccines, no masks are pro-choice, no? People switch sides when it's politically convenient for them. However, the reality is that people are both pro-life and pro-choice. Except whenever we choose, we should choose so justly, not only for selfish reasons. Think of others as well. If we're all that responsible, it'll be impossible to stay only on one side all the time on all issues...

It's also very clear to me that both capitalism and socialism could very well co-exist together. We need capital to grow our way up and we need to be social and helpful to one another during our way down. The two are not in conflict with one another. Nobody likes to see capitalists not pay fair wages and destroy whatever in its path, also nobody likes to see socialists destroy wealth and its entire culture such as culture revolution in china... as long as we do things justly, anything can be made to work well. Even dictatorship can work well if we have a just dictator!

So I actually would consider myself as people moderate, not a corporate moderate. I'm for living wages and I'm also for capitalism. I'm also both for BLM and the cops! There are definitely black thugs and bad cops. They are the problem. Not the entire black population nor the entire police department. We can't solve our problems by erasing black people nor erasing cops. Even Billi realizes the nuance in such situation. If we all act justly, we can live in the world of Winnie the Pooh.

Lastly to address RWA, your negativity towards religion is understandable, but your negativity toward Winnie the Pooh makes no sense.

I'm also not promoting people to just be 'religious'. That'd be the same as just being politically correct on the surface, but refuse to actually do what is correct. To be a follower of Jesus is not about being religiously correct, but to actually do the right things. When people do the wrong things in the name of Jesus, Jesus should not be blamed for that.

But of course in the real world, Jesus was blamed 2021 years ago and nailed on the cross.

But no worries, no matter what bullies do, Jesus will win. Such is the power of love! Bullies seduced by the power of the dark side will not be able to overcome it! ;)

I stopped reading after one line. Because you're confused, again.

Did you know BERNIE SANDERS IS A *SENATOR.* And as such he can propose and craft law, and get other senators to vote for it, therefore enacting it into our legislation.

Busy yelling at Biden for something Bernie Sanders could but isn't doing.

Repeat after me.
Joe Biden is not a senator.
Bernie Sanders is a senator.
Bernie Sanders is responsible for coming up with legislation. And whipping the votes to pass it. Biden is not.

[neanderthal]

Neanderthal you're right about the far hard left being as bad as the far hard right. They dip into fascistic tendencies when pushing back against right-wing fascism. But I do heartily agree with their plan to guillotine every monarch and oligarch on the planet :p

Horseshoe theory is one thing. What amuses me the most is donut theory. It's when lefty hippies who want to 'live free' and 'off the grid', you know, the sort of people who have a distrust for big pharma are into natural remedies etc, end up circling around to being right wing nut jobs (RWNJs) because they're easily led on my Q-spiracies and anti-vax propaganda. There are a LOT of them near me in northern NSW. Byron Bay area.

Celebrity chef Pete Evans (who you may remember from earlier discussions I posted here) was eventually brushed aside by his old employers in TV land for his outspoken views on vaccinations, hydroxychloroquine, and other RWNJ topics, then sacked completely by supermarket chains who stocked his products after he posted Nazi symbols in a tweet. He claims to have been silenced and his free speech taken away, so he has become a warrior for free speech by using his ability to speak freely to form a political party in which he will contest for a seat in the senate at the next federal election. He's likely to drag all of the hippies along with him, but all he will do is syphon a few votes away from the big political parties and thus become an ineffectual wart on the side of Australian politics.

The line (in donut theory) between hard left and hard right, is always amusing to find. Because on one topic they're vehemently opposed, on another they're in lock step. It's a circle of dumbfuckery.


The anti vaxxers amuse/ scare me. That step from vaccines are harmful because reasons, to stuff like 5G is poisoning our water (or whatever) is like "hold up, wait, where did that come from?!?!?"

[Crazed_Insanity]

Look, Sanders pushed for $2000 chks, $15 min wage, and do this thru budget reconciliation quickly.

Biden settled for $1400, and lowered income limits... so if you made more than $80k in 2019 and got laid off in 2020, you’ll get no help. Biden also rolled over and gave up on $15 min wage because apparent he agrees with Manchin that it’s just impossible! There’s not even negotiations of $14 or $13 min wage? It’s just a flat out no increase. He couldn’t even convince Manchin a democrat to agree to living wage and he tried to pretend that he could win over Republican senators? Why even waste time on them? Why not spend more time with Manchin and the parliamentarian and see what kind of deals they can make so that they can end up making democrats look good?

Instead, when democrats can’t fulfill their promises, it’s always republicans’ fault, or Bernie Sanders fault... or people don’t know the nuances... such as sometimes parliamentarians can get in the way...

What democrats are telling people is that their political correct sounding promises are all just full of shit. We have to be pragmatic about that. In such a shitty world, at least we ought to sound less shitty by speaking political correctness to each other... aw... what a politically correct world! That’s the best we could do. if you get shit on, hey, it happens sometimes. You just have to accept that. :)

[FaultyMario]

Neanderthal you're right about the far hard left being as bad as the far hard right. They dip into fascistic tendencies when pushing back against right-wing fascism. But I do heartily agree with their plan to guillotine every monarch and oligarch on the planet :p

Problem is, the political spectrum in yankeeland is sooooo skewed to the right you'd have to be in pol-sci to know what the American far left is.

[Yw-slayer]

The line (in donut theory) between hard left and hard right, is always amusing to find. Because on one topic they're vehemently opposed, on another they're in lock step. It's a circle of dumbfuckery.

A bit like Billi's buddies from 2019 who dressed in black, claiming to FIGHT FOR FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY, but who were often more than happy to assault, beat the shit out of, and generally cause severe physical harm to anyone who expressed contrary opinions.

They did it while wearing black.

BTW what were Mussolini's militia, which "used violence and intimidation" against his opponents, called? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackshirts

[Crazed_Insanity]

Obviously every freedom and democracy fighter wears black like ninjas and enjoys kicking the shit out of you. That’s why ninja warriors are so popular in the US and yeah, we’re all buddies! Black Lives Matter! Ready to kick your ass if you don’t defund the CCP! Even Lewis Hamilton has turned black and kicked the shit out of his opponents! And yeah, he’s my buddy too!

[neanderthal]

Look, Sanders pushed for $2000 chks, $15 min wage, and do this thru budget reconciliation quickly.

Biden settled for $1400, and lowered income limits... so if you made more than $80k in 2019 and got laid off in 2020, you’ll get no help. Biden also rolled over and gave up on $15 min wage because apparent he agrees with Manchin that it’s just impossible! There’s not even negotiations of $14 or $13 min wage? It’s just a flat out no increase. He couldn’t even convince Manchin a democrat to agree to living wage and he tried to pretend that he could win over Republican senators? Why even waste time on them? Why not spend more time with Manchin and the parliamentarian and see what kind of deals they can make so that they can end up making democrats look good?

Instead, when democrats can’t fulfill their promises, it’s always republicans’ fault, or Bernie Sanders fault... or people don’t know the nuances... such as sometimes parliamentarians can get in the way...

What democrats are telling people is that their political correct sounding promises are all just full of shit. We have to be pragmatic about that. In such a shitty world, at least we ought to sound less shitty by speaking political correctness to each other... aw... what a politically correct world! That’s the best we could do. if you get shit on, hey, it happens sometimes. You just have to accept that. :)

The vote was 58 against and 42 for $15 an hour. 6 other senators besides Sinema and Manchin were lukewarm or against it. In other words, from their conversations with senators they knew the votes weren't there and it wouldn't pass.

What did the Democrats do, kept eyes on the ball, removed $15/ hr from the bill, and moved the covid measure through both houses. While Bernie stans throw their toys in fits of rage.

I think those last two lines sum up, ... a lot.

Bernie can whip the votes to make it pass. Bernie WON'T whip the votes to make it pass. Not only could he not get a single republican to vote for it, he couldn't get every democrat to vote for it.

[Jason]

A bit like Billi's buddies from 2019 who dressed in black, claiming to FIGHT FOR FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY, but who were often more than happy to assault, beat the shit out of, and generally cause severe physical harm to anyone who expressed contrary opinions.

They did it while wearing black.

BTW what were Mussolini's militia, which "used violence and intimidation" against his opponents, called? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackshirts

You think black and brown people should respect white supremacists?

I get trying to be respectful to opposing political views when its things like arguing over regulations, or taxes, or whatever. But you're talking about people protesting for the right to not be murdered due to the color of their skin, and "counter protestors" who believe in the genocide of anyone not white.

Edit: I assumed "dressing in all black" was a reference to BLM, but you might be talking about something else, if so, my bad

[FaultyMario]

Yeah, YW and Billi have their own thing about Hong Kong protesters, the Chinese Communist Party, the western media's portrayal of those two sides and something else.

[FaultyMario]

And much like Mo's anti-Bernie sentiments, I've learned to avoid paying attention to those posts.

[Crazed_Insanity]

You think black and brown people should respect white supremacists?

I get trying to be respectful to opposing political views when its things like arguing over regulations, or taxes, or whatever. But you're talking about people protesting for the right to not be murdered due to the color of their skin, and "counter protestors" who believe in the genocide of anyone not white.

Edit: I assumed "dressing in all black" was a reference to BLM, but you might be talking about something else, if so, my bad

Yeah, to be fair to YW, I don't think he was equating people dressing in black as black lives.

However I do believe the situation is somewhat comparable. CCP nationalists believe they are superior and Xi is making China great again! Violent suppression of such dissenting voice is deemed acceptable. The pro-democracy folks in HK has become like Anti-Fa-like. They got nothing to lose by making trouble. They also felt like beating up supporters of CCP as justifiable... they wish to not only defund the CCP, but destroy it.

Every nation has it's similar troubles...

Personally, I do not condone violence.

Whatever you gained by beating somebody up, you'll eventually lose it when somebody else come beat you up.

Personally, I can respect the CCP if they become more democratic... at least less dictatorish... If Dalai Lama is afraid to go back home, something is obviously fucking wrong. Not just because Billi is confused.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The vote was 58 against and 42 for $15 an hour. 6 other senators besides Sinema and Manchin were lukewarm or against it. In other words, from their conversations with senators they knew the votes weren't there and it wouldn't pass.

What did the Democrats do, kept eyes on the ball, removed $15/ hr from the bill, and moved the covid measure through both houses. While Bernie stans throw their toys in fits of rage.

I think those last two lines sum up, ... a lot.

Bernie can whip the votes to make it pass. Bernie WON'T whip the votes to make it pass. Not only could he not get a single republican to vote for it, he couldn't get every democrat to vote for it.

Dude, we don't have the fucking votes because our senators are bought and paid for by corporations!

As it is, we will NEVER have living wage passed. NEVER! No nuances there. NEVER!!!!

We need to expose these politicians. Let them vote on record! Let their constituents plainly see how fucking corrupt and out of touch they are.

We're not asking for much. We're only asking for living wages! Barely above poverty levels!!!

This may be our one and only shot at this. (Because as the way it is, nickle and diming the stimulus package to americans, dems will likely lose their slight majority during midterm just like before even budget reconciliation won't be any good anymore...) This is why I wanted Biden to fight harder as if he's fighting the Iranians... rather than just fold and say... oh well, we can't have it. Sorry American workers. Normalcy is earning slave wages for you. At least we don't have Trump now. Yes, I'm thankful for getting rid of Trump, but let's raise the level of normalcy a bit higher please... We're so close! You really believe Biden is pushing as hard as he could and there's just nothing else he could do?

If you were Biden, what would you do? Just laugh at Sanders and let $15 an hour dream die and just fight for it... when we actually have the votes? Just kick this thing down the road because you don’t want to upset your donors? If you upset your donors, then it’s game over for you... that’s the pragmatic way, right?

[Jason]

Yeah, YW and Billi have their own thing about Hong Kong protesters, the Chinese Communist Party, the western media's portrayal of those two sides and something else.

Ah, teaches me to speak up :lol:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Forum would wither and die if people don’t speak up! :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

Manlychin is clearly a Republican!

Wonder why he pretends to be a democrat. Wonder if his constituents know who they voted for...

I suppose we still need to thank him for giving dems a slight majority. Other than that, what is he good for?

[neanderthal]

And much like Mo's anti-Bernie sentiments, I've learned to avoid paying attention to those posts.

Remember, Bernie is the one who inserted the $15/ hour minimum wage in to the COVID bill. It's failure to pass is on HIM. Never mind that he was told that it wouldn't pass if he did so, but Bernie did what he does. And now people are mad at Democrats.

[Crazed_Insanity]

So expecting living wages for American workers is asking too much?

This is not handing out welfare to lazy bums here... this is workers’ wage! Americans should expect poverty wages?

Gee, Bernie, why are you so dreamy and unrealistic? Obviously also live in Winnie the Pooh land! Obviously you can’t possibly win the White House. Wake up Bernie! You might as well just give up and quit the senate and just go home. Quit wasting everybody’s time! Democrats would kick the shit out of the republicans if it weren’t for you messing around and giving everyone false hope...

BTW, Obamacare’s failures are also on Obama, huh? He freaking inserted that in our nation too. Nobody really asked for it. People continue to want to dismantle or repeal it. People are expecting too much. Free or affordable healthcare? In our dreams perhaps?

[neanderthal]

So expecting living wages for American workers is asking too much?

This is not handing out welfare to lazy bums here... this is workers’ wage! Americans should expect poverty wages?

Gee, Bernie, why are you so dreamy and unrealistic? Obviously also live in Winnie the Pooh land! Obviously you can’t possibly win the White House. Wake up Bernie! You might as well just give up and quit the senate and just go home. Quit wasting everybody’s time! Democrats would kick the shit out of the republicans if it weren’t for you messing around and giving everyone false hope...

BTW, Obamacare’s failures are also on Obama, huh? He freaking inserted that in our nation too. Nobody really asked for it. People continue to want to dismantle or repeal it. People are expecting too much. Free or affordable healthcare? In our dreams perhaps?

Again, every time you post, I'm reminded that you barely have a shallow understanding of how things work.

It's not a dictatorship where one just rules by decree. There rules for how laws get enacted.

The best way to get the laws enacted is to overwhelmingly win all the contests in election day. That didn't happen, so blame all the people who didn't show up for Democrats in Maine, Kentucky, Alaska, South Carolina etc, and those were just some of the high profile votes. Some of us have only ever voted straight ticket for Democrats in every election we've voted in.

In the real world what Bernie has done here is what he normally does. (https://www.palmerreport.com/analysis/bernie-sanders-has-made-a-mess-of-things-for-senate-democrats-today/37178/) And he's put 6 more Democrats on the spot come election time, with all this talk that's circulating.

This incident painfully reminds me of when he couldn't explain the mechanism by which he would enact the central plank of his platform. (https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/transcript-bernie-sanders-meets-news-editorial-board-article-1.2588306)

That was deliberately worded because, despite being told not to do it, (talking this time again) *because it wouldn't pass,* he decided to force the inclusion of $15/hr minimum wage in the covid bill, lo and behold, IT DIDN'T PASS.

Deja fucking vu!!!

____________

You others may not like my... anti Bernie crusade, but this is not unusual for him. This is right down his alley.

At the end of the day it would be GREAT if Bernie could find a way to get his ideas enacted, rather than grandstanding and generally fucking up things for the Democrats which he is wont to do. He is a terrible legislator, 30 years in the halls of Congress and no meaningful legislation to show for it in spite of all his mighty oratory, and it'd be great if his followers acolytes paid attention to that part.

[Crazed_Insanity]

You answered all of my questions with just Bernie sucks as the only answer? And boy this answer is long!

So democrats should just wait for Bernie to die and voters to vote for them and wait for all the corporate moderates to agree with living wage?

Got it! You’re so smart!

[neanderthal]

"Bernie alienates his natural allies. He is completely ineffective as a lobbyist because he offends just about every one." Barney Frank. July 1991.

IIRC that was Bernie first year as a senator.

What's changed? Has he learned from all his years in the Senate?

[neanderthal]

You answered all of my questions with just Bernie sucks as the only answer? And boy this answer is long!

So democrats should just wait for Bernie to die and voters to vote for them and wait for all the corporate moderates to agree with living wage?

Got it! You’re so smart!


Again, every time you post, I'm reminded that you barely have a shallow understanding of how things work.

It's not a dictatorship where one just rules by decree. There rules for how laws get enacted.

The best way to get the laws enacted is to overwhelmingly win all the contests in election day. That didn't happen, so blame all the people who didn't show up for Democrats in Maine, Kentucky, Alaska, South Carolina etc, and those were just some of the high profile votes. Some of us have only ever voted straight ticket for Democrats in every election we've voted in.

In the real world what Bernie has done here is what he normally does. (https://www.palmerreport.com/analysis/bernie-sanders-has-made-a-mess-of-things-for-senate-democrats-today/37178/) And he's put 6 more Democrats on the spot come election time, with all this talk that's circulating.

This incident painfully reminds me of when he couldn't explain the mechanism by which he would enact the central plank of his platform. (https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/transcript-bernie-sanders-meets-news-editorial-board-article-1.2588306)

That was deliberately worded because, despite being told not to do it, (talking this time again) *because it wouldn't pass,* he decided to force the inclusion of $15/hr minimum wage in the covid bill, lo and behold, IT DIDN'T PASS.

Deja fucking vu!!!

____________

You others may not like my... anti Bernie crusade, but this is not unusual for him. This is right down his alley.

At the end of the day it would be GREAT if Bernie could find a way to get his ideas enacted, rather than grandstanding and generally fucking up things for the Democrats which he is wont to do. He is a terrible legislator, 30 years in the halls of Congress and no meaningful legislation to show for it in spite of all his mighty oratory, and it'd be great if his followers acolytes paid attention to that part.

So, your reading comprehension is terrible too. I've highlighted some of the many things i've said that discussed the issue and it's merits/ demerits without aluding to Bernies suckage. Like;
* there is a process to how laws get enacted
* The best way is winning elections overwhelmingly
* that didn't happen
* it needs to happen at all elections, including midterms (inferred)


I gave an example of how, prior, he couldn't even explain the details for how his signature platform item would work and be funded. It's an example of a pattern of big talk but no follow through; not knowing the execution of HOW to get that done. Not paying attention to the details of things get done. And, oh look, it's the very first fucking thing I said
there is a process to how laws get enacted."

And you're mad at me for pointing out that your hero is all talk no action. All hat no cattle. That dog don't hunt. I think you're misdirecting your ire sir. I'm not the one who's job it is to enact legislation. Perhaps take a closer look at your valoured candidate and try to look at him with an unjaundiced eye.

In the real world Mitch only didn't do all that he wanted to do with his control of the 3 branches of legislation. Only the Trump tax cut. Sure, they appointed judges and commission people (oh, yes, Bernie was the one who held up President Obama's appointments to the post office board, DID YOU EVEN READ THE LINKS?) but that's what senators do when they're not passing laws.

So yeah, it would be great if you held Saint Bernie up to the light and examined him just a little bit more thoroughly. Because no super super majority, (control of 3 branches plus filibuster proof majority) no progressive agenda as you or he want it. THAT'S REALITY. That's the world we live in.

[Jason]

It’s frustrating watching progressives and moderates fight on the Dem side when no Republicans voted for increased minimum wage at all.

[Rikadyn]

You mean progressives are upset that "moderate" democrats decided to side with Republicans. No one expects the Republicans to vote for it, and hard to focus on them when they are getting support from your party.

[Tom Servo]

I, for one, really enjoyed seeing Billi tell someone he thought their post was long-winded and went nowhere.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I, for one, really enjoyed seeing Billi tell someone he thought their post was long-winded and went nowhere.
Ha!

[Crazed_Insanity]

It’s frustrating watching progressives and moderates fight on the Dem side when no Republicans voted for increased minimum wage at all.

It’s just frustrating that liberals cannot all agree workers should be paid living wages.

Fuck the republicans ok? They are not even part of our discussions. Budget reconciliation requires zero republican senator’s vote.

It’s also mind boggling to me that they are nickel and diming this rescue package trying to ‘target’ the right Americans...

Why not just make this taxable?

For those Americans with jobs and don’t need the help, just tax the money back! For those who made $80k in 2019 but lost their job in 2020, they could still get the help that they need.

Don’t know why they have to fight so hard amongst themselves and take so long to save average Americans.

Wall st rescue back in Obama days came more swiftly with less debate and with bipartisanship too! I wonder why...

Do you guys really believe being this ‘pragmatic’ will help the dems win big during midterm?
.

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/30/two-thirds-of-americans-favor-raising-federal-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour/?amp=1

2/3 of Americans favor $15min wage increase. It has bipartisan support.

Our congress refuse to represent the will of the people is really disheartening.

People inventing excuses for those corrupt politician really should... repent and ask God’s forgiveness!

[Yw-slayer]

You think black and brown people should respect white supremacists?

I get trying to be respectful to opposing political views when its things like arguing over regulations, or taxes, or whatever. But you're talking about people protesting for the right to not be murdered due to the color of their skin, and "counter protestors" who believe in the genocide of anyone not white.

Edit: I assumed "dressing in all black" was a reference to BLM, but you might be talking about something else, if so, my bad

Yeah man, I was talking about Billi's buddies outside of America adopting black outfits as their de facto uniform in the second half of 2019. I was not referring to the situation in America, whether in relation to race in any way, white supremacists, BLM, or 2020.

[Jason]

You mean progressives are upset that "moderate" democrats decided to side with Republicans. No one expects the Republicans to vote for it, and hard to focus on them when they are getting support from your party.

Eh, there’s moderates who would rather see something like a $10-12 minimum wage and can probably be convinced to have a COL modifier based on area/state from there. Personally I think that’s a good middle ground, so WV can have $10, NYC can have $20 or whatever it’d end up being, etc.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Were they discussing or negotiating about that?

As far as I know, thanks to the parliamentarian, it was a flat nope, end of discussion.

[Jason]

Theoretically Harris can override it, iirc or “fire” the parliamentarian, something like that. But, I don’t think Biden/Harris want to get “extreme” in their attempts at “unity”. I imagine minimum wage will come up again though in the near future, it’s a hot button topic. Not being able to do it through reconciliation will be an issue though, because the Senate is effectively under opposition control when the controlling party only has 50+1 votes due to the fillibuster

[neanderthal]

Were they discussing or negotiating about that?

As far as I know, thanks to the parliamentarian, it was a flat nope, end of discussion.

But didn't St Bernard insist on its inclusion? Was that before or after the parliamentarian? Because I KNOW that before the parli... ian (fuck that long spelling) Bernie was told it wouldn't pass.

[Jason]

IMHO, its a good idea to get people on record, especially for future votes/negotiations

[neanderthal]

Theoretically Harris can override it, iirc or “fire” the parliamentarian, something like that. But, I don’t think Biden/Harris want to get “extreme” in their attempts at “unity”. I imagine minimum wage will come up again though in the near future, it’s a hot button topic. Not being able to do it through reconciliation will be an issue though, because the Senate is effectively under opposition control when the controlling party only has 50+1 votes due to the fillibuster

Reality. Narrated by Jason.

It sets a very, very bad precedent/ slippery slope to over ride the parl...ian when you have a 1 vote (not quite) majority. Because some of the more pragmatic (read less progressive/ more conservative) members of your caucus may not vote with or OR switch parties, OR declare they are independent. There goes your (non) majority.

------

$15/ hr would have happened in the natural order of things in the next 2 years if Bernie had stayed in his lane. I firmly believe this.

The covid bill gives people immediate, albeit temporary, financial relief. Money goes to state governments, cities, families get more money if they have kids. Schools reopen (grrrr, don't get me started!*) life goes back to normal and the economy bounces back.
Biden says in early 2022, "hey, look, the economy is going well (go with it, don't bring your common sense yet!**) we gave people money and it worked to reorient the economy, and we can supercharge it by raising the minimum wage, which is basically doing the same thing!" Republicans would have a fit, of course and come up with a pithy 3 word slogan against it. But Biden encourages Dems to run on raising the minimum wage.

Supermajority with filibuster proof senate, in my opinion. But Bernie fucked it up. Now senators who weren't even in the conversation are going to be on defense.

* teachers and all school staff needed/ need to be in the first group of people getting vaccinated because teachers are CRIMINALLY underpaid. And you can't open schools if it means we're going to lose teachers to covid. That's just fucking dumb.
** the ecenomy will always recover because there is too much money to be made in a healthy/ booming economy when more people have disposable income than in one where less people have disposable income. It's for this reason that i'm confident investing in Zimbabwean stocks even though that economy is crap. The companies that are segment leaders are not going to disappear overnight.

[neanderthal]

Theoretically Harris can override it, iirc or “fire” the parliamentarian, something like that. But, I don’t think Biden/Harris want to get “extreme” in their attempts at “unity”. I imagine minimum wage will come up again though in the near future, it’s a hot button topic. Not being able to do it through reconciliation will be an issue though, because the Senate is effectively under opposition control when the controlling party only has 50+1 votes due to the fillibuster

Reality. Narrated by Jason.

It sets a very, very bad precedent/ slippery slope to over ride the parl...ian when you have a 1 vote (not quite) majority. Because some of the more pragmatic (read less progressive/ more conservative) members of your caucus may not vote with or OR switch parties, OR declare they are independent. There goes your (non) majority.

------

$15/ hr would have happened in the natural order of things in the next 2 years if Bernie had stayed in his lane. I firmly believe this.

The covid bill gives people immediate, albeit temporary, financial relief. Money goes to state governments, cities, families get more money if they have kids. Schools reopen (grrrr, don't get me started!*) life goes back to normal and the economy bounces back.
Biden says in early 2022, "hey, look, the economy is going well (go with it, don't bring your common sense yet!**) we gave people money and it worked to reorient the economy, and we can supercharge it by raising the minimum wage, which is basically doing the same thing!" Republicans would have a fit, of course and come up with a pithy 3 word slogan against it. But Biden encourages Dems to run on raising the minimum wage.

Supermajority with filibuster proof senate, in my opinion. But Bernie fucked it up. Now senators who weren't even in the conversation are going to be on defense.

* teachers and all school staff needed/ need to be in the first group of people getting vaccinated because teachers are CRIMINALLY underpaid. And you can't open schools if it means we're going to lose teachers to covid. That's just fucking dumb.
** the ecenomy will always recover because there is too much money to be made in a healthy/ booming economy when more people have disposable income than in one where less people have disposable income. It's for this reason that i'm confident investing in Zimbabwean stocks even though that economy is crap. The companies that are segment leaders are not going to disappear overnight.

[neanderthal]

Progressives busy saying primary Manchin are forgetting that the entire covid relief bill doesn't pass without him, he's what's keeping us in the majority.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Look man! I don’t know what else to say.

I’ll let a black comedian speak for me.


https://youtu.be/rb85gUd_2mk

With Trump gone and comedians are now beginning to laugh at democratic leadership, I really don’t see dems maintaining their slim majority in congress.

I know I know, it’s all Bernie’s fault. When GOP gains majority, it’ll all be republicans’ fault... it’s always somebody else’s fault.

[Jason]

Progressives busy saying primary Manchin are forgetting that the entire covid relief bill doesn't pass without him, he's what's keeping us in the majority.

I’d fucking love if a Progressive replaced Manchin, but it’s so out of the realm of reality that I truly wonder what the hell people are thinking. We either get a moderate (Manchin) there, that’s on the side of Progressives like 50% of the time... or a full ass GQP member who won’t ever be on the side of the people.

The left needs to be concentrating on gaining Senate seats in 2022 and leaving Manchin, etc be. So that said moderates won’t be a “problem” anymore.

[neanderthal]

I’d fucking love if a Progressive replaced Manchin, but it’s so out of the realm of reality that I truly wonder what the hell people are thinking. We either get a moderate (Manchin) there, that’s on the side of Progressives like 50% of the time... or a full ass GQP member who won’t ever be on the side of the people.

The left needs to be concentrating on gaining Senate seats in 2022 and leaving Manchin, etc be. So that said moderates won’t be a “problem” anymore.

You're about to get an Oscar for your narration of this real time dramedy called real politics in America.

Not only should the left be working on that, they should be working on taking seats from the reddest of places. The problem with the left is the fragmentation. They just need to fight the right for the right to go on defense. But, ...

[neanderthal]

Sigh... (https://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2021/03/05/democrats-fracture-over-puerto-rico-statehood-1367099)

[Crazed_Insanity]

The left needs to be concentrating on gaining Senate seats in 2022 and leaving Manchin, etc be. So that said moderates won’t be a “problem” anymore.
How do we concentrate on gaining more seats?

[neanderthal]

How do we concentrate on gaining more seats?

It's not fucking rocket science. (https://www.yahoo.com/news/day-forcing-marathon-bill-reading-005804951.html) You go hardest at republican senators. Preferably in states with republican governors.

[Crazed_Insanity]

They typically go pretty hard on themselves already. Like Bush, Trump... I think even Mitch is planning some sort of exit strategy. Plus, time to go hard on them is while they are in charge. It kinda doesn’t make sense to blame your political opponents when you are in charge.

My kind of rocket science is to get better at governing. If you do what’s popular and right, such as voting for $15 min wage, you will win more supporters! Even some conservative voters! Come to people’s aid quickly when they need help, surely people will remember!

Lesser of the 2 evils is what causes low voting turnout. Show people what good really looks like instead!

Dems right now are exactly where you say they are. All they can do is show us how lousy GOP is. However, once in charge, they are not really able to show us how to be much better. Just a tiny bit better, but still favoring the rich establishment...

Congress should represent the will of the people. We can have all GQP removed, congress still won’t represent the will of the people.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Think of it this way, I think you sort of personifies what you’re talking about. You definitely practice what you preach at least.

You’d go hard at your opposition, Billi, trying to win the argument.

How ever, no matter how dumb and stupid Billi’s posts are, no matter how politically knowledgeable and how much nuances you detected, Billi still fundamentally has 2/3 of Americans agreeing with him on this min wage issue.

You cannot win people/votes over using your strategy.

It’s not just about beating the GOP, it’s about what you’re gonna do after you’ve beaten them. Dems do not know what they want to do and that’s a problem. They serve 2 masters, corporations and people... and neither group will be happy with the dems ‘pragmatic’ approach to things...

[Tom Servo]

The flip side of the coin for these "stick this item into an otherwise unrelated bill" is the recent attempt to attach a "ban trans kids from school sports" clause to the covid relief bill. It only failed by one vote.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Regardless of what got stuck to a bill, isn’t that the way things are usually done anyway? Where was the parliamentarian ruling for that trans kids BS?

This was perhaps our one and only shot to get this done. Dems simply rolled over and gave up, some like Neanderthal actually blame it on Bernie...

I really am not optimistic that dems will gain more seats to pass it with enough votes in the near future.

[neanderthal]

Regardless of what got stuck to a bill, isn’t that the way things are usually done anyway? Where was the parliamentarian ruling for that trans kids BS?

This was perhaps our one and only shot to get this done. Dems simply rolled over and gave up, some like Neanderthal actually blame it on Bernie...

I really am not optimistic that dems will gain more seats to pass it with enough votes in the near future.

Can you tell us who put it in the covid relief bill?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Bernie. He did it because budget reconciliation can give us the best chance of passing it. Biden wasn’t outright against it in the bill, just that he knew there will be opposition.

Bernie also did it because 2/3 of Americans approve of it. He’s not being tyrannical about it as if he’s doing something nobody wants or everyone hates.

Only people who hate him and it are people like you and the rich establishment who has grabbed most of our politicians by their pussies and balls.

[neanderthal]

Bernie. He did it because budget reconciliation can give us the best chance of passing it. Biden wasn’t outright against it in the bill, just that he knew there will be opposition.

Bernie also did it because 2/3 of Americans approve of it. He’s not being tyrannical about it as if he’s doing something nobody wants or everyone hates.

Only people who hate him and it are people like you and the rich establishment who has grabbed most of our politicians by their pussies and balls.

Wrong. As usual. I don't hate $15 an hour. I hate the methodology used to try and implement it, the potential for great loss was there in the failure of the entire bill, and Bernie decide fuck it, "i'm going to do it." Because it's all about him.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wrong, it’s about those workers!

It’s the best chance we got and he went for it.

Unlike Biden, he knew he didn’t have the votes within his own party, yet he’d still waste time entertain gop senators trying to be bipartisan... why bother?

What was that about? Just for show?

Bernie, being all about getting it done quickly, recommended budget reconciliation... and might as well insert the popular bipartisan voter supported min wage in there because there’s just no way to pass that under normal circumstances...

Besides eliminating min wage increase, dems also couldn’t agree on everything in the Covid relief bill, right?

Why don’t you think Manchin made it all about him?

Had the dems pulled this off, 2/3 of Americans would’ve cheered loudly and dominating the midterm would be simple. Of course such popularity will result in drop of corporate donations. That is just unacceptable for the corporate moderates... they need the money more...

[neanderthal]

lol at your (as usual) faulty analysis.

Biden invited the Republicans to come and give their input on the COVID bill and see where they could agree and move forward in a bipartisan way. The Republicans came with a whack plan that was one third of what President Biden wanted and he said "thanks for your contribution," and STILL PASSED THE $1.9 trillion that he wanted. You're so busy trying to find areas where the Demoncrats are failing that you failed to realise that he got exactly what he wanted.

Was there more that could have been had, sure, but that was his floor. Concessions were made here and there to get his floor. He was there when he saw how a smaller than desired relief bill could take far longer to take effect when he was VP. He wanted his number to be X. "X" was a big number. He got X.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Maybe I’m just too stupid.

When Trump was in office, Biden wanted to give $2000 chks to Americans right away! That wasn’t what he really wanted?

What he really wanted was actually a smaller check and to less Americans and he used republicans and Manchin to achieve what he secretly wanted? Is that what you’re telling me?

I’m not trying to give you any analysis, just trying to understand the situation.

When 2/3 of Americans want something just, and congress refuse to deliver, what are we suppose to do?

Just accept it and remain chill and just wait until congress sees the light just as all the BLM protesters are doing? Don’t be upset at us cops! There are Neo nazis who are even way more racist than us! Defund them 1st!

How hopeful are you that congress will raise min wage? When do you think it’ll happen? How will it happen?

Also, Why do you think democrats will ever gain super majority in congress?

Obviously we do not have 2/3 of Americans being liberals.

My only 'analysis' would be that if dems do more of what conservative voters want, maybe dems could win more support that way. If dems don't attract more conservative worker's votes, somebody like Trump surely will.

Anyway, if you're right and I'm wrong, surely Dems will win big on the next mid-term.

But of course, although Biden achieved exactly what he wanted, because of Bernie the mother fucker, dems will now lose seats. Whatever happens, it'll probably be Bernie's fault, right?

Is there any way we can settle this? Prove it to both of us that one of us is right or wrong?

Probably not... :p

[Rare White Ape]

Latest Trump news: he is still losing the election. The losing continues. He just can’t stop losing.

https://twitter.com/marceelias/status/1368940065032900608?s=21

[Rikadyn]

https://i.redd.it/irkjcjhj6vl61.png

[JoshInKC]

Yep, happy international womens' day

[neanderthal]

Maybe I’m just too stupid.

When Trump was in office, Biden wanted to give $2000 chks to Americans right away! That wasn’t what he really wanted?

What he really wanted was actually a smaller check and to less Americans and he used republicans and Manchin to achieve what he secretly wanted? Is that what you’re telling me?

I’m not trying to give you any analysis, just trying to understand the situation.

When 2/3 of Americans want something just, and congress refuse to deliver, what are we suppose to do?

Just accept it and remain chill and just wait until congress sees the light just as all the BLM protesters are doing? Don’t be upset at us cops! There are Neo nazis who are even way more racist than us! Defund them 1st!

How hopeful are you that congress will raise min wage? When do you think it’ll happen? How will it happen?

Also, Why do you think democrats will ever gain super majority in congress?

Obviously we do not have 2/3 of Americans being liberals.

My only 'analysis' would be that if dems do more of what conservative voters want, maybe dems could win more support that way. If dems don't attract more conservative worker's votes, somebody like Trump surely will.

Anyway, if you're right and I'm wrong, surely Dems will win big on the next mid-term.

But of course, although Biden achieved exactly what he wanted, because of Bernie the mother fucker, dems will now lose seats. Whatever happens, it'll probably be Bernie's fault, right?

Is there any way we can settle this? Prove it to both of us that one of us is right or wrong?

Probably not... :p

You're acting like the 2/3rds of American sentiment are represented in the senate. They're not. That's your first and most fatal error. Sentiment don't count for shit. Voting does. And y'all failed to vote in enough numbers to have a filibuster proof majority. And here we are.

Enjoy the view. It's complimentary with the sentiment.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Shouldn’t congress represent the people? You act like it’s ‘normal’ for congress to do its own thing and just let people eat cake.

Trump is certainly abnormal, but current kind of 'normal' is just wrong.

It was precisely this kind of 'normalcy' and cavalier sentiments like yours which generated anti-establishment sentiments(all around the world). Such sentiments resulted in Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. Either way, you're not going to like either one very much. It's bound to happen again if dems keep this up.

I just think senators need to be forced to show who they truly are based on their voting records so that voters can tell that they're corporate puppets. It's pointless to have DINOs in congress. So what if dems have the majority, if you still vote like republicans?

Most progressive politicians can easily raise their own money from their faithful following... AOC could easily raise millions within days for Texans!

Suffice to say those 8 democratic senators who defected on $15 min wage rely heavily on corporate donations in order to keep their jobs. The sooner we get rid of them the better it will be for the party. We don't need this kind of BS majority. We need more politicians with appeals like AOC... we don't need more AOCs, just somebody like her... more capable of connecting with the people. (So that Trump won't end up exploiting them...)

You really should not be defending those 8 senators and acting as if everything is Bernie's fault.

Lastly, black lives will never matter as long as those 8 senators are still in power. How much patience you got now, huh?

Will your logic be... well, if I don't support these racists, than the Neo-Nazis will be in power! So okay, I'm just gotta support these racists for now because it's the most pragmatic thing to do? I'll just wait for them to become less racists in due time?

[Crazed_Insanity]

From what the article said, the main problem of the "low-cost F16 replacement project" was that lobbyist and politicians kept pushing for a multi-role aircraft, instead of the "small, fast, low-service" specialized item it was at the start of development.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a35768282/f-35-joint-strike-fighter-rathole/

Just read this article and I believe it best described the situation we’re in.

I think our current culture is stuck in a similar way..., we’re too committed down a wrong path and we can’t afford to actually correct it, best hope is to be able to make the most of it.

Hopefully future leaders will learn from such lessons and won’t continue to make similar too big to fail mistakes...

But as long as republicans and corporate moderates are in charge, we won’t ever change. I think these people purposely do things this way, whether by tricking or pressuring people to go along with them...

It has essentially became a quasi-ponzi scheme and when you have everyone involved, nobody wants to see it fail... so we just keep pretending and try to make this scheme workout... enriching the rich while the worker resentment builds.

BTW, I don't believe this happens exclusively in capitalistic nations. Capitalism shouldn't be the blame for this... this is just plain old corruption... and eventually it will fail if we don't reform/fix ourselves.

[Rikadyn]

https://www.thenation.com/article/economy/manchin-sinema-minimum-wage/

[Jason]

It really is fascinating/frustrating watching some claim that “Democrats don’t want $15/hr” when 84% of Democrats in the Senate voted yes for it, while 0% of Republicans voted for it. Right now it’ll take 100% of Dems + 20% of Republicans to get it passed, unless Biden and company have some magic up their sleeves.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Bottom line is senate is not really reflective of the will of their constituents. This is not what was intended by our founding fathers, right?

Are Republicans and Democrats the same? Of course they're not the same because 0 republicans support this and at least we have 42 dem senators supporting this. So if we look at the #s, clearly the 2 parties are not the same.

However, whenever I say the 2 party are the same, it's that both parties deliver the 'same' results. Meaning no real change...

Hopefully the FDR statue in Biden's office will rub off some more during his 4 years in the WH.

[neanderthal]

Bottom line is senate is not really reflective of the will of their constituents. This is not what was intended by our founding fathers, right?

Are Republicans and Democrats the same? Of course they're not the same because 0 republicans support this and at least we have 42 dem senators supporting this. So if we look at the #s, clearly the 2 parties are not the same.

However, whenever I say the 2 party are the same, it's that both parties deliver the 'same' results. Meaning no real change...

Hopefully the FDR statue in Biden's office will rub off some more during his 4 years in the WH.

The will of the constituents was expressed in the 50% Democratic and 50% RepubliQan senate tally. Reality is an actual thing you know. Without that filibuster proof majority (plus control of the House and Presidency) nothing will get past these starkly divided caucuses. RepubliQans will vote against ANY legislation if they don't have the chance to "give input" and effectively cripple it first.

The "will of the people" was for the covid relief bill to pass and every single RepubliQan voted AGAINST IT. That's where you need to start. Instead of blaming Democrats.

Stop hiding behind this nebulous "real change" bull shit.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Dems do need to highlight the popular relief bill had zero republican support! If you help conservative voters out, surely some will remember you and end up increasing the # of dem senators. Still, I want to blame the dems for not moving fast enough and not covering more Americans. We’re always giving up more stuffs for the average Americans because of demands by Manlychin.

Why are these 8 senators so powerful that Biden and the other 42 senators could not persuade them? If we couldn’t ever persuade people of the same party, we certainly can stop dreaming about working with republicans.

Anyway, I believe delivering $15 min wage should also deliver further knock out punch at GOP, but we just can’t get it done I guess. Yes, that’s reality and it’s a pretty sad one.

Deliver more results will result in more congressional wins!

I just think Democratic Party is a bit disingenuous. Do they really want to work with the progressives? You guys expect Bernie Sanders to fall in line and maintain party unity, but what about when the table’s reversed? Would you work with the progressives? Nope.

https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/nevada-democratic-party-staff-quits-131355169.html

Dems would rather quit and give up rather than working along side Bernie bros.

[Rikadyn]

Democrats have openly been more willing to move right than they have been left. It's why they are willing to court moderate Republicans and promote bi-partisanship. Even when the opposition has been proven to be an unfaithful actor.

I think the real problem comes from the fact that Americans in general believe that the two parties represent two different ideologies, conservativism and liberalism, when they are both branches of the same ideology, which is Liberalism, or Neo-Liberalism if want to be a bit more accurate.

While far more nuanced than I am willing to type on my phone at six am, the ultimate goal for both branches is to provide a stable society for the free market to function in. Democrats are only really ever willing to act when either public out cry is too loud and threatens the free market (see 2008) or it won't make much of a difference(or there is profits to be made) . Obviously the Republicans believe that as long as the market (free market = stock market) is doing well nothing else matters. Mind you the lingering effects of the current right ward trend of Republicans into fascism is mudding the waters a bit.

It's a bit like wrestling, as long as the Republicans are playing the heel, the democrats can point to them as the reason for them not getting anything through (without a super majority which given the divide of the country is never happening). While the Republicans will paint anything that would help the majority of the population as "socialist" which the democrats will then focus on fighting against the label by pushing more "moderate" candidates and continue the right ward creep.

[Tom Servo]

It is pretty wild how the Republican party still seems to do well enough in the elections while they do wildly unpopular things. At least according to a poll released this morning by Politico and Morning Consult, 75% of voters either strongly or somewhat support the rescue bill, including 59% of Republicans and 90% of Democrats, but all the Republican senators voted against it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Remember Trump supported the $2000 chk. That's how GQP got popular. Trump actually listens to people. At least he would pretend to fight with the republicans on twitter about that? Whereas Biden would simply concede to the 8 senators and the parliamentarian as if they are right and he is wrong.

Regardless of political ideology, the 'establishment' bought and paid for politicians just won't listen to voters if it doesn't benefit them. It's not like we have a mob demanding unreasonable immoral things. How can something like living wage for americans be wrong? If you want to protect mom and pop businesses, fine, give them exemption to hire part timer students or something... or tax the super rich to have some sort of UBI to help fill in the gap? So that we can ensure that no americans are stuck below poverty levels. If you make too much money, government should easily be able to tax this UBI right back. So far, there's just no attempt at negotiating.

"Hey look, we promised $15 min wage. Will you guys give us the votes? No? Oh wait, parliamentarian said no? Okay then, nevermind."

What kind of fight is that?

Similarly with the stimulus/relief checks. Why take the time to mean test things trying to target help? If you did well in 2019 doesn't mean you'll still be well in 2020. Just send the checks quickly to help people out. Don't make it tax free. For those who don't need the money because they didn't lose their jobs, we can always tax the money back! I don't understand why we need to nickel and diming this relief.

Anyway, I think even roofer doesn't like the Republican politicians, but he hates the "socialists" more. Bernie is just evil to the extreme and Biden is still a socialist...

Dems need a better PR campaign. Helping out Americans in need would do just that. Help Americans see the benefits of socialism. However, will the dems deliver? I just get the feeling that they don't really want to help... and then they blame their failed efforts on others. Look, it's just not our fault okay? We wanted that! We just couldn't deliever! So please keep on voting for us. We'll maintain this status quo of dangling this carrot in front of you but never give it to you, okay?

[Crazed_Insanity]

It's a bit like wrestling, as long as the Republicans are playing the heel, the democrats can point to them as the reason for them not getting anything through (without a super majority which given the divide of the country is never happening). While the Republicans will paint anything that would help the majority of the population as "socialist" which the democrats will then focus on fighting against the label by pushing more "moderate" candidates and continue the right ward creep.

Yeah, I think this slow creep is what’s hurting the dems. Democrats need to do more soul search and stop being ashamed of their label and be proud of it. Nobody will vote for you if even you are ashamed of yourself.

Currently we have a great opportunity to sell/educate Americans about the benefits of socialism! Most already know the benefit of going right, time to show people the good stuffs we have on the left! Don’t give up so easily creeping toward the left!

[21Kid]

I can't believe that you are still trying to get through to Billi, and have a coherent discussion with him.

Insanity

[Jason]

Democrats have openly been more willing to move right than they have been left. It's why they are willing to court moderate Republicans and promote bi-partisanship. Even when the opposition has been proven to be an unfaithful actor.

I think the real problem comes from the fact that Americans in general believe that the two parties represent two different ideologies, conservativism and liberalism, when they are both branches of the same ideology, which is Liberalism, or Neo-Liberalism if want to be a bit more accurate.

While far more nuanced than I am willing to type on my phone at six am, the ultimate goal for both branches is to provide a stable society for the free market to function in. Democrats are only really ever willing to act when either public out cry is too loud and threatens the free market (see 2008) or it won't make much of a difference(or there is profits to be made) . Obviously the Republicans believe that as long as the market (free market = stock market) is doing well nothing else matters. Mind you the lingering effects of the current right ward trend of Republicans into fascism is mudding the waters a bit.

It's a bit like wrestling, as long as the Republicans are playing the heel, the democrats can point to them as the reason for them not getting anything through (without a super majority which given the divide of the country is never happening). While the Republicans will paint anything that would help the majority of the population as "socialist" which the democrats will then focus on fighting against the label by pushing more "moderate" candidates and continue the right ward creep.

Nothing will get through the Senate without moderate Democrat and Republican support, as frustrating as it is... so it's logical that bills have to "move right" in order to pass. Unless we get rid of the filibuster, anyways.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Why are you still hopeful that Republicans and moderate dems will give average american support? What is your hope based on? Your assessment of the situation is certainly realistic, but I think your hope is unrealistic. Or maybe you already feel hopeless? So why are you supporting this hopelessness? What can we do to have more audacity to hope?

I just think we need more Bernie Sanders and AOCs.

But democrats don't really want that and would try anything and everything to make sure that doesn't happen.

There's really no way to move forward using dems current game plan. I really don't understand why they are so protective of the democratic party and refuse to work with the progressives and embrace the progressive cause... when clearly, people are supportive of it!

That's what FDR would do, right? Why is Biden admiring FDR? I seriously don't get it.

Well, actually I do. They can get money for corporations easier than from the people they supposedly serve.

Yes, the republicans are even more worthless. That's why average conservatives voted for Trump.

We really need an anti-Trump to maintain balance.

[Jason]

Take ACA for example.

I prefer Medicare for All, or some sort of universal healthcare system. But we don’t have the votes for that. So instead, I’ll happily accept the ACA, because the alternative of that is “free market”. The ACA helps A LOT of people with pre-existing conditions keep and maintain health coverage, it keeps young adults insured, it helps more of the lower class afford health insurance. It does a lot to make certain things covered, and/or “cheap”. Those are all good things compared to the alternative Republican “plan” of “free market” and “de-regulation”

Medicare for All, sadly does not have enough support in Congress to pass right now. The less good, but better than bad, alternative, ACA, did have enough support. That’s an example of “Progressives negotiating right” and still coming away with something that helps Americans, even if it’s not exactly the most idealistic thing in the world. Thousands of lives have been saved and improved by the ACA, just because it’s a “half measure” doesn’t mean it’s bad on the whole.

The way our government is setup, compromise is absolutely necessary to get much of anything passed.

[Jason]

Hell, you could argue this current stimulus is something that’s been “negotiated right”, and it will undeniably help people as well. Is it nearly as much as we progressives would like? Nope. Is it nothing? Also nope.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If the dems even failed to send that check, pretty sure we will have a real insurrection on our hands.

I'm not an expert on healthcare... so let's take F-35 for example.

Love child of compromises. It took us down a wrong path and we can't even afford to cancel it and start over... so we'll be stuck with it. An expensive plane with inferior performance.

Take Medicare and Social Security as another example. Are those good programs or bad? Let's lump in VA hospitals... I think it's these costly and low performing programs that end up giving 'socialism' a bad name. With these 'compromises', it's always easy to for dems to blame the problems on republicans... and republicans just blame socialism sucks!

But is the F-35 really a product of 'socialism'?

Very few people in DC actually believe in socialism. All the compromises we make also make it easy for corruption to creep in.

Yes, our political system is setup so that politicians make compromises, but in order to be a great leader, you can't really accept these compromises too much.

Difference between Bernie and typical dems is that Bernie has a clear vision of where he wants to go, rightly or wrongly, he stuck with it! Whereas Biden is very good at compromising and his views surely have mutated during his political career. It's difficult to gauge exactly where he stand on things. If he truly stands for $15 min wage, surely he'd at least go hug and kiss and feel up that parliamentarian so that she feels so uncomfortable at her job so that she leaves! Then we go find another parliamentarian. :p

We also need to expose those 8 senators as DINOs and make sure their constituents know about that... and then in the future, endorse true 'democrats'!

But of course, this is only possible in Winnie the Pooh land. In the real world, we accept compromises... and allow our world to go deeper and deeper into shit.

[21Kid]

I'm all for getting rid of the filibuster.

[Jason]

I’m a bit split on it. On the one hand, it’d be great to let Dems enact their policies.

On the other hand, it’ll let Republicans enact their policies the next time they barely get control... getting rid of the judicial filibuster gave us a very very conservative Supreme Court, I can only imagine what Republicans would do in terms of legislation if they had that level of power.

I think I’m coming around to the idea of making the filibuster difficult to use again. Make an 80 year old stand up there and talk until they fall over. Other idea I saw was making them stay in session and having to have 40 votes to continue filibustering until they give up.

Whatever idea it’d let the opposing party slow things down and present their case to the public about why they don’t want to go forward with whatever bill, but ultimately, those in power would still be able to push it through in the end.

[Rare White Ape]

It is pretty wild how the Republican party still seems to do well enough in the elections while they do wildly unpopular things. At least according to a poll released this morning by Politico and Morning Consult, 75% of voters either strongly or somewhat support the rescue bill, including 59% of Republicans and 90% of Democrats, but all the Republican senators voted against it.

It's a weird mindset. I think people trust conservative governments more to not wildly spend all of our taxes on frivolous things. Somehow restricting welfare to unemployed people is good. Somehow allowing medical suppliers to set their own prices and fleece the population for unlimited profit is good. Somehow injecting trillions into Wall St is good (it was an amount of money large enough to end poverty in the US overnight and it just *disappeared*). And so-on and so-forth, a million times.

This is despite spending eye-wateringly large amounts of money in things that do. not. matter. to to average citizen. The aforementioned Wall St cash injection is one, the fatter than Fat Albert budget for the defence industry is another. And then on the flip side of that they go and say austerity is needed to fix the economy. The notion is that it's more mature or responsible. It just hurts, that's all.

[Tom Servo]

You see it (and not to have crossover with the other thread, but here we are) with the vaccinations now too. Ron DeSantis in Florida, the city government in Pasadena out here, shutting down vaccination sites when it turns out a bunch of people who aren't eligible got appointments. Fuck it. Try to fix the problem, but in the meantime, just vaccinate people! This isn't boot camp where you punish everyone with extra pushups 'cause one guy sucks, you will still ultimately be saving lives if you just put that shit in whoever's arm, even if they jumped the line.

[neanderthal]

If the dems even failed to send that check, pretty sure we will have a real insurrection on our hands.

I'm not an expert on healthcare... so let's take F-35 for example.

Love child of compromises. It took us down a wrong path and we can't even afford to cancel it and start over... so we'll be stuck with it. An expensive plane with inferior performance.

Take Medicare and Social Security as another example. Are those good programs or bad? Let's lump in VA hospitals... I think it's these costly and low performing programs that end up giving 'socialism' a bad name. With these 'compromises', it's always easy to for dems to blame the problems on republicans... and republicans just blame socialism sucks!

But is the F-35 really a product of 'socialism'?

Very few people in DC actually believe in socialism. All the compromises we make also make it easy for corruption to creep in.

Yes, our political system is setup so that politicians make compromises, but in order to be a great leader, you can't really accept these compromises too much.

Difference between Bernie and typical dems is that Bernie has a clear vision of where he wants to go, rightly or wrongly, he stuck with it! Whereas Biden is very good at compromising and his views surely have mutated during his political career. It's difficult to gauge exactly where he stand on things. If he truly stands for $15 min wage, surely he'd at least go hug and kiss and feel up that parliamentarian so that she feels so uncomfortable at her job so that she leaves! Then we go find another parliamentarian. :p

We also need to expose those 8 senators as DINOs and make sure their constituents know about that... and then in the future, endorse true 'democrats'!

But of course, this is only possible in Winnie the Pooh land. In the real world, we accept compromises... and allow our world to go deeper and deeper into shit.

You just named 3 of the most successful programs that help to keep seniors and vets alive and out of poverty. And you used them as examples of <checks notes> ... failure? I'm confuzzled by that.
Social security single handedly keeps about 21% of elderly married people and 40% of single people from falling drastically below the poverty line. For many, it's 90% of, or their only income.
Medicare and the VA suffer from the effects of being poorly run at times and in certain instances, but overwhelmingly treat the majority of their clients in an efficient and very effectively priced manner. Medicaid is even better!! The number of people that they see and treat for malady X drives down the market price of treating malady X.

This is why no one takes you seriously. You say things to prove your point that don't prove your point, demonstrating how shallow your understanding of the subject matter is. This makes it very easy to ignore all of the noise in just about everything you say.

The covid relief bill passed without. a. s i n g l e. Republican. vote. and here you are haranguing ... Democrats. Not one Republican voted for it, despite it's popularity in the general public, and your ire is reserved for Democrats. Because one aspect of it was stripped out in order to make it pass. And bring needed financial relief to millions of families, thousands of cities, towns, and counties. That's fucking clown thinking. My burger doesn't have pickles so throw the WHOLE thing away. Fucking clown thinking!!!

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think you’re missing the points I was trying to make... or you may blame it on my lame communication skill. Let me try again. Those programs are not quite failures and also not quite successes, just like the F-35 program.

Programs that are too big to fail and also not a very well oiled machine...

Obviously I’m not against fighter jets nor social security nor VA hospitals nor post office nor DMV, but they naturally don’t quite inspire confidence or much respect, right?

These kind of government inefficiencies are result of possible corruption, most likely political compromises, of course possibly incompetence as well. They make it easier for people to play the blame game... see, socialism doesn’t work... or republicans are tying our hands behind our backs... it’s always the fault of the other side.

Nobody actually takes up responsibility for anything! No improvements made... instead, we just keep on churning out these costly monstrosities until one day it grows too big and it’s weight crushes us all.

My point is enough with compromises. Time for us to take up more responsibility. We need leaders with clearer vision rather than one that supposedly know the art of dealing and wheeling and compromising.

Bernie clearly sees what he wants. Biden can only see what is possible... well, except in Neera’s confirmation. Clearly there was no path forward for her to be confirmed, but he still fought in his opinion a good fight for her.

If I cans see Biden fight for $15 as hard as he fought for Neera, even if he failed, I would not be upset at him. I’m upset at him for picking the wrong fight.

[Crazed_Insanity]

You see it (and not to have crossover with the other thread, but here we are) with the vaccinations now too. Ron DeSantis in Florida, the city government in Pasadena out here, shutting down vaccination sites when it turns out a bunch of people who aren't eligible got appointments. Fuck it. Try to fix the problem, but in the meantime, just vaccinate people! This isn't boot camp where you punish everyone with extra pushups 'cause one guy sucks, you will still ultimately be saving lives if you just put that shit in whoever's arm, even if they jumped the line.

I think in case of Pasadena, they probably just didn’t want to let rich white people cut the line. However the main issue was their registration process was just really lax or lame. When you accidentally allowed hundreds of otherwise ineligible people to sign up, perhaps it was best to start over and try again since city does only have a limited supply of vaccines.

[neanderthal]

I think you’re missing the points I was trying to make... or you may blame it on my lame communication skill. Let me try again. Those programs are not quite failures and also not quite successes, just like the F-35 program.

Programs that are too big to fail and also not a very well oiled machine...

Obviously I’m not against fighter jets nor social security nor VA hospitals nor post office nor DMV, but they naturally don’t quite inspire confidence or much respect, right?

These kind of government inefficiencies are result of possible corruption, most likely political compromises, of course possibly incompetence as well. They make it easier for people to play the blame game... see, socialism doesn’t work... or republicans are tying our hands behind our backs... it’s always the fault of the other side.

Nobody actually takes up responsibility for anything! No improvements made... instead, we just keep on churning out these costly monstrosities until one day it grows too big and it’s weight crushes us all.

My point is enough with compromises. Time for us to take up more responsibility. We need leaders with clearer vision rather than one that supposedly know the art of dealing and wheeling and compromising.

Bernie clearly sees what he wants. Biden can only see what is possible... well, except in Neera’s confirmation. Clearly there was no path forward for her to be confirmed, but he still fought in his opinion a good fight for her.

If I cans see Biden fight for $15 as hard as he fought for Neera, even if he failed, I would not be upset at him. I’m upset at him for picking the wrong fight.

Jee zus you're dense. $15/ hr will not pass. That's reality. You really want him to spend his presidency tilting at windmills?

Literally, this is NOT the bill to bring to the floor and get rid of the filibuster for. The voting rights act? Sure. The union act? Sure. $15/ hr has massive resistance. The smart play is to wait for some other legislation to knock down the filibuster, then enact $15/ hr.

Why this is not clearly evident to you stymies me. But, i've said it over and over again; your politics don't appear to be based on reality. And reality is that $15/ hr will not pass in a senate with a filibuster.

And social security, Medicaid/ Medicare, and the VA are absolutely successes. They have their faults but they're incredibly efficient at what they're designed to do. But they can be better.

[Rare White Ape]

Yeah that's doubling the minimum wage. We'd all love to see that, but it'll never happen. Small businesses would sink overnight.

Better to gradually increase over time and let these companies adjust. First, increase in-line with economic growth, then add a few percent on top until it reaches that goal.

Sanders is grandstanding with the push to suddenly increase it. When the bill inevitably fails, he can point to its opponents and tell everyone how horrible they are.

[drew]

But if you double the minimum wage, milk will be $12/gallon and Big Macs will be $10.

People are SO FUCKING STUPID.

[Crazed_Insanity]

1st of all, Sander's proposal was gradual over a few years to eventually get to $15, not suddenly doubling it. Our economy is not dependent on exploiting people with poverty wages. I think according to 2019 data, only 10% of Americans are below poverty level. I'm not expecting to lift all of them above that, but at least for those who work full time, they should not remain in poverty in America. This 'reality' just isn't right... and according to data, only 1/3 of americans share your sentiments.

Even if this is just impossible to achieve, I'm still not seeing 'compromises' being made at all. What about $14? $13? $10? $9? Or small UBI to help fill the gap? Why should we just 'accept' American workers living under poverty?

Billi, you must be stupid or living in Winnie to Pooh land! Well, I guess so. I just cannot accept this!

Further, like I said, had Biden put up a fight as he did for Neera, even if he failed, I'd still be happier with that and stop getting on his case about it.

Neera was also one of those 'realists' who didn't believe $15 is possible(although she said she support it now) and she was going to be the budget chief. She sure would've worked well with Sanders! Republicans would be laughing all the way to the bank while watching Neera and Bernie fight it out themselves.

Anyway, I have to concede that some times we do need to face reality. If 2/3 of Americans believe what you believe, yeah, I'd probably shut up about this. But the reality is that this is backed by popular demand and the establishment is refusing to listen.

Look Neanderthal, why couldn't you accept that black lives just don't matter? Look around the world, which nation has no racism? Why do you bother fighting? It's hopeless! Accept it. Be real!

Is that really how we should live?

Yeah, fuck that!